Insurance creep

[Cruiser]

received this in the mail today 12-07-2020

Notice of Conditional Policy Renewal

**note - my policy does not expire until late in March, 2021

blah, blah, blah, "Your premium will increase twenty five percent (25%) or more. It is also possible that you will no longer meet our underwriting qualifications for renewal. "

blah, blah, blah. 

[ArtVandelay]

received this in the mail today 12-07-2020
Notice of Conditional Policy Renewal
**note - my policy does not expire until late in March, 2021
blah, blah, blah, "Your premium will increase twenty five percent (25%) or more. It is also possible that you will no longer meet our underwriting qualifications for renewal. "
blah, blah, blah. 

How old are you?

[Missile=Awesome]

15 hours ago, Cruiser said:

received this in the mail today 12-07-2020

Notice of Conditional Policy Renewal

**note - my policy does not expire until late in March, 2021

blah, blah, blah, "Your premium will increase twenty five percent (25%) or more. It is also possible that you will no longer meet our underwriting qualifications for renewal. "

blah, blah, blah. 

We received the same “type of letter” x number of months before renewal. Reached out to agent as language was grim (Discussing policy increases/changes in coverage/non renewal).  It was a form letter that was required if ANY of these were a possibility.  In our case it was an increase in premium that triggered the “form” letter.  We ended up with same coverage/deductible with an increase in premium between 10 and 15% which appears to be “the norm”...

[Greg Ellis]

On 12/7/2020 at 7:19 AM, Browncbr1 said:

My renewal from global went up almost 30%, so I switched to QBE for a smaller increase of 15%...  no changes in hull, coverage, or currency.  Prior year went up 30% with global, but it was the same premium as an alternative, but included saavy..   this year they increased another 30% and discontinued saavy.   So, QBE it is. 

I just read your note about being with QBE.  I was with QBE and they were the ones that required a mandatory $2500 premium no matter what you were insuring.  I am 51 years old with an aircraft with a hull value of $40,000.  So nothing too big.  No claims or anything like that either.  I went from a little over $600/year to a mandatory minimum of $2500 so my guy is looking elsewhere.

[Browncbr1]

23 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

I just read your note about being with QBE.  I was with QBE and they were the ones that required a mandatory $2500 premium no matter what you were insuring.  I am 51 years old with an aircraft with a hull value of $40,000.  So nothing too big.  No claims or anything like that either.  I went from a little over $600/year to a mandatory minimum of $2500 so my guy is looking elsewhere.

My hull is $80k, commercial multiengine Instrument over 1000hrs complex, 41yrs old with 2nd class Med.   Premium is $1516.  Global quote was $1709, up from $1316.  Previous year was $970.

[amillet]

On 12/5/2020 at 6:04 AM, amillet said:

I emailed my renewal application to Falcon yesterday for policy (USAIG for 20 years) expiring 1/25/21. I will turn 70 in April. I’ll report back with the quote. 

Just renewed.  $2775 for $200K hull $1M smooth. 15.6% increase.

[jetdriven]

we got nailed with a renewal quote for 4700$, on 140k hull, and 1m smooth.  up from 2300

 

[MikeOH]

14 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

we got nailed with a renewal quote for 4700$, on 140k hull, and 1m smooth.  up from 2300

 

Good grief!

What carrier?

[jetdriven]

old republic. all others were higher. Keep in mind I have 10K plus hours and current, 11 years ownership, no claims. wife is 1K hours, no IFR, but also no claims and same ownership period. 

[Immelman]

It raises the question again...how much is too much? When does one choose to self-insure and drop hull?

How many hours a year...

How many $ / hr for that hull coverage...

 

[Danb]

Very loaded questions, risk tolerance, net worth, liquidity. Check to see if it can be included with your umbrella policies, catastrophic policy etc. Maybe Lloyds could set up major umbrella coverage, in the end I assume it comes back to keeping your airplane insurance. Liability could hamper the affluent more than those of us with limited assets.

[Immelman]

Dan I should have clarified - the liability insurance still seems somewhat reasonable. I was questioning what determines someone's resistance point to dropping hull coverage and going liability only.

 

[MikeOH]

5 minutes ago, Immelman said:

Dan I should have clarified - the liability insurance still seems somewhat reasonable. I was questioning what determines someone's resistance point to dropping hull coverage and going liability only.

 

Completely agree.  No way I'm dropping liability; wish I could get more.  It's the hull that is getting absurd.

[carusoam]

11 minutes ago, Immelman said:

resistance point to dropping hull coverage and going liability only.

 

Since many GU landings total the plane...

The owner would be given the same choices...

Fix or dismantle...

If you are fortunate and own a plane...

How many years of insurance does it take to pay for the plane...

A simple ground strike can be more than 50amus to fix...

If insurance is 5amu every year for hull coverage...

it would take 10years to save the 50amu

For the same 50amu you can buy another plane...

But instead of forking over 5amu every year...

you have to come up with 50amu when you are less than lucky...

This would then take the fun out of flying...

PP thoughts only, not a finance guy... or insurance guy...

Best regards,

 -a-

[MikeOH]

From a different perspective:

1) A wise individual once advised only to insure things that would materially affect your life if lost.  While not fun, losing my plane would not affect my finances significantly.

2) If I look at what I paid for my plane, I would only have to wait three years before the savings in NOT having a plane would be enough to purchase another one!

3) Somewhat related to number 1, if I look back on 40 years of paying insurance premiums on all kind of things, the few claims I've made could have been covered out of pocket without undue pain.

4) Once you've made a substantial claim I suspect, but cannot prove, that YOUR insurance premiums are going to go WAY up; they are going to get THEIR money back over time.  So, are you really that much better off?

Again, these comments are directed towards hull loss...not being sued into oblivion by grieving spouses for liability.

[Parker_Woodruff]

8 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Under the circumstances I couldn't agree more.  Been with them over 20 years - Instrument Rated entire time.  Same coverage throughout.  Will be 66 shortly.  My premium dropped $180 in Nov. 2012, was flat 2012 - 2016, dropped another $129 in 2016, flat 2016 - 2019.  In Nov 2020 premium rose $201 but is still less than what I paid in 2011.

 

Yep, and USAIG didn't play the huge race to the bottom in rates.  I would guess they lost a lot of market share in that time, but no one has been truly surprised by any of their moves.

As an agent, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the way they conduct business.  When I start the workday, I pretty much always know what to expect from them.  They've been doing this for about 100 years, so I guess they have a good idea of what works...

[jetdriven]

20 hours ago, Danb said:

Very loaded questions, risk tolerance, net worth, liquidity. Check to see if it can be included with your umbrella policies, catastrophic policy etc. Maybe Lloyds could set up major umbrella coverage, in the end I assume it comes back to keeping your airplane insurance. Liability could hamper the affluent more than those of us with limited assets.

I’m not aware of any umbrella policy that covers aircraft liability. Also, all the umbrella insurers that we shopped for wanted to own the policy that was beneath the umbrella as well. Such as auto, homeowners, everything really. So if you can’t get 1 million smooth for your airplane you can’t buy an umbrella policy for 1 million that covers your airplane unless they insure the airplane primarily. But they don’t offer that the million smooth there either so I guess the answer is no. 

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Yep, and USAIG didn't play the huge race to the bottom in rates.  I would guess they lost a lot of market share in that time, but no one has been truly surprised by any of their moves.

As an agent, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the way they conduct business.  When I start the workday, I pretty much always know what to expect from them.  They've been doing this for about 100 years, so I guess they have a good idea of what works...

in terms of leaving USAIG, lowest bidder purchasers for sure, but I've always been selective of my underwriter for many areas more important than lowest pricing including smooth limits, expanded geographical coverage and owner satisfaction with claims. I think when I flew into Cuba they would have been the only carrier or one of very few that would insure me in Cuba and without extra fees.  

[kortopates]

I just got my insurance renewal quote from USAIG and it's exactly 15% up. There was 0 increase last year. So although it's significant, it's not really going to make a dent in my annual aviation expenses.  

[steingar]

On 1/16/2021 at 9:11 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

Yep, and USAIG didn't play the huge race to the bottom in rates.  I would guess they lost a lot of market share in that time, but no one has been truly surprised by any of their moves.

As an agent, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the way they conduct business.  When I start the workday, I pretty much always know what to expect from them.  They've been doing this for about 100 years, so I guess they have a good idea of what works...

Yeah, AIG knows how to do business.  Get really big with risky practices, and then when the chips are down have Uncle Sugar bail you out being "too big to fail". Excellent business model.

One year they were the lowest priced insurer by hundreds.  I didn't even think about it.

[Parker_Woodruff]

6 minutes ago, steingar said:

Yeah, AIG knows how to do business.  Get really big with risky practices, and then when the chips are down have Uncle Sugar bail you out being "too big to fail". Excellent business model.

One year they were the lowest priced insurer by hundreds.  I didn't even think about it.

USAIG is different than AIG.

AIG - American International Group

USAIG - United States Aircraft Insurance Group.  Which involves Berkshire Hathaway.

[Ryan ORL]

Still pretty new here, but just as another data point... the rates I was quoted for the 1984 M20J ($100,000 hull value) I am purchasing were pretty nuts: ~$3200 was the lowest (USAIG).  Avemco was $3500ish.  Others were north of $4000.

Admittedly I don't have a lot of Mooney or even RG time but I am 37 y/o, 600 TT, CFI/CFII, 35 retract, 10 make/model, no accident or claim history.

I sure hope my premium goes down a bit after I get some time in the Mooney.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Ryan ORL

[Parker_Woodruff]

4 hours ago, Ryan ORL said:

Still pretty new here, but just as another data point... the rates I was quoted for the 1984 M20J ($100,000 hull value) I am purchasing were pretty nuts: ~$3200 was the lowest (USAIG).  Avemco was $3500ish.  Others were north of $4000.

Admittedly I don't have a lot of Mooney or even RG time but I am 37 y/o, 600 TT, CFI/CFII, 35 retract, 10 make/model, no accident or claim history.

I sure hope my premium goes down a bit after I get some time in the Mooney.

come back next year with 100 RG and I bet you're in the low $2000s or better.

[PT20J]

@Parker_Woodruff can you suggest the actions any of us might take to be considered a better risk?

Skip

[jetdriven]

43 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

come back next year with 100 RG and I bet you're in the low $2000s or better.

I don't know, Parker, I've had my plane for 10 years and I've got 800 hours in it and the lowest rate with 100k subllimits is $2700. I think they're rating my other partner on this which has 1000 hours but no instrument rating but still. its a bad year.

Edited January 21, 2021 by jetdriven