Mooney Factory Update

[mike_elliott]

Just now, Jerry 5TJ said:

The Cirrus CSIP teaches you to make a call-out at (the minimum altitude for a successful pull of) 500’ AGL.  
 

I have a similar 800' checklist I teach, and one item is "turnbacks allowed". Typically, a 270 turn can be made in Mooney and not lose all 800' if practiced

[kpaul]

The problem with the auto land system is someone need to push the button.  It is designed for a passenger to survive an incapacitated pilot.  A pilot flying solo will probably never realize the need to push the button. It's not designed to prevent LOC or save an aircraft with engine failure. 

The parachute is for an incapacitated aircraft. There are definitely risks involved once the chute is pulled.

The best would be both if you had the money and useful load available. 

The only plane I have flown with a parachute,  I had to go to the back to put it on.  I guess I also flew a few strapped to my back sitting on a rocket.

My students were the only ones that ever got to fly with the auto flare/auto land feature.  It did save the tax payers a few millions and allowed us to reuse the aircraft. 

[chriscalandro]

The Scrappy build has a parachute. Your talking about a builder who keeps track of every ounce of weight in his airplane. 
 

there's a little more to the parachute theory than “kitchen approval” and to think otherwise is pure denial and a little bit of ignorance. 
 

when you look at the data of fatal aircraft accidents, let’s say, within the last year, and ask yourself “would a parachute have ended in a better outcome”, a good percentage of the time the answer is yes. 
 

this includes a large percentage of Mooney accidents. 

[aviatoreb]

45 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

when you look at the data of fatal aircraft accidents, let’s say, within the last year, and ask yourself “would a parachute have ended in a better outcome”, a good percentage of the time the answer is yes. 

That would be a relevant study - if someone did it systematically.  Across several different fleets (Mooney, Cessna, etc). To just list each fatal incident and give it a score as to likelihood had there been a parachute, how would the outcome have been.  And noting that the parachute is not always deployed usefully (people just don't always do it for some reason) and also some incidents in airplanes in parachutes are due to over confident people partly caused by the presence of a parachute.

Still I bet your assertion is right.

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

 I simply like best in class products like Mooney, 0-60 in 2.6 secs, NO range anxiety, and free market capitalism along with school choice.

That sounds like a very fast car.  With a car that fast it must be very dangerous.  I hope it has a parachute...so you can stop.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, 1980Mooney said:

This reminds me of Shelby Cobra (not Mustang but real Cobra 2 seat).  It was best in class back in the day just like Mooney. 
 

That day has passed but it’s still exists as a continuation or replica car. I read somewhere that you can buy an aluminum body replica for about $120,000 without engine or Drive train.  Mooney, as is with its 60,000 rivets, will continue.  But like the Cobra it’ll be more of a curiosity for enthusiasts than a main stream GA airplane. 
 

Hey what about manufacturing in India?  It could be like motorcycles... like Royal Enfield motorcycles  

Yeah - I know that replica car - I know a few.

A down the street neighbor has a replica Shelby Cobra that is gorgeous.

A college buddy who grew up and became a doctor - built himself an even more gorgeous Shelby Cobra replica.

My "step uncle" (step fathers brother) had one when I was a teenage and he took me for a quick drive.  On a residential street with a 35mph speed limit he went up to 135mph.  Top down.  He scared the b'geez outa me and even as a 15 year old I was not amused.  I think after that scare I only recently recovered my b'geez.  He had a bronze placard on the passenger side that said no smoking over 125mph.  He was sort of a black sheep of that family.  Post script - a few years after that excitement he spent a decade in prison for selling drugs to high school students.  Oh well... it was a nice looking car.  Hmmmm.... is this thread drift.  Ok back to work!

[mike_elliott]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

That sounds like a very fast car.  With a car that fast it must be very dangerous.  I hope it has a parachute...so you can stop.

naw...regenerative braking  recapturing the energy

[chriscalandro]

11 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

This reminds me of Shelby Cobra (not Mustang but real Cobra 2 seat).  It was best in class back in the day just like Mooney. 
 

“In the day” is exactly right. The reality is that is not the case anymore. That’s why Mooney sales are such a low percentage of new sel sales. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by chriscalandro

[aviatoreb]

Just now, mike_elliott said:

naw...regenerative braking  recapturing the energy

Regenerative braking is nice.  But only lefties recapture energy.

Can you put regenerative braking on a cirrus and skip the parachute?

I am going to need a parachute to get through this afternoon - which is what I am doing on here at the moment - procrastinating.

[chriscalandro]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Can you put regenerative braking on a cirrus and skip the parachute?

If you consider regenerative braking is just a conversion process of kinetic energy to a type of potential energy, yeah. Then you land using the opposite principal. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by chriscalandro

[aviatoreb]

Just now, chriscalandro said:

“I’m the day” is exactly right. The reality is that is not the case anymore. That’s why Mooney sales are such a low percentage of new sel sales. 

In the day?

There's a difference though in these analogies.

Shelby cobra is still fantastically stylish but beyond that, it is not competitive in any way with modern cars.  Fit, finish, speed, handling, efficiency, reliability. Nothing.  Style - YES!

A Mooney is still highly competitive for speed (best), fit and finish, style, handling (better than the cirrus that's for darned sure) efficiency, but style is in the eye of the beholder - for me I like it more but I know some see it as old school.  And it has lacked in a certain new wave appeal. But I do think the right re-work and it could be new again.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, chriscalandro said:

If you consider regenerative braking is just a conversion process of kinetic energy to a type of potential energy, yeah. That’s how most airplanes land!

In a very real way - we use a lot of extra fuel not climb, and we get back some of that potential energy when we descend (but some of it is lost to air friction).

[chriscalandro]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

In the day?

There's a difference though in these analogies.

Shelby cobra is still fantastically stylish but beyond that, it is not competitive in any way with modern cars.  Fit, finish, speed, handling, efficiency, reliability. Nothing.  Style - YES!

A Mooney is still highly competitive for speed (best), fit and finish, style, handling (better than the cirrus that's for darned sure) efficiency, but style is in the eye of the beholder - for me I like it more but I know some see it as old school.  And it has lacked in a certain new wave appeal. But I do think the right re-work and it could be new again.

Economy is only one factor of best in class. You still have comfort, ergonomics, and technology of which Mooney isn’t anywhere near close. 

[toto]

1 hour ago, kpaul said:

The problem with the auto land system is someone need to push the button.  It is designed for a passenger to survive an incapacitated pilot.  A pilot flying solo will probably never realize the need to push the button. It's not designed to prevent LOC or save an aircraft with engine failure. 

My understanding of the Garmin system was that it actually does attempt to sense a nonresponsive pilot, similar to the way vehicle automation systems start vibrating the steering wheel or displaying warnings.  If the pilot doesn't respond within certain parameters, autoland is engaged with or without input from the passenger.

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Economy is only one factor of best in class. You still have comfort, ergonomics, and technology of which Mooney isn’t anywhere near close. 

To each his own.  Comfort and ergonomics, from the pilot seat I am way more comfortable.  I am 6'4'' and I am more comfortable in my Mooney with my legs out front with plenty of leg room than I was in the two finalist airplanes which were Bonanza and Cirrus when I was shopping 10 years ago.  In fact I was so uncomfortable in the Beech it was disqualified immediately and I was notably less comfortable but it was reasonable, in the Cirrus.

Saying not even close for something subjective like comfort is like saying my choice of blue is better than red and its not even close.

I listed 7 different things as factors, and economy wasn't even one of them.  But you quoted me by saying "economy" is only one factor.  I will agree with you but why quote me in saying economy is only one factor as if I said it.  Why not quote one of the 7 things I actually said if meant to differ from what I said as a quote?

[Danb]

Disagree on comfort, my friend had a 2019 SR22T my Bravo is more comfortable to me, he told me he was less tired after a four hour flight in the Mooney than his Cirrus, I’ll assume comfortable is a personal feeling.

[chriscalandro]

8 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

 

I listed 7 different things as factors, and economy wasn't even one of them.  But you quoted me by saying "economy" is only one factor.  I will agree with you but why quote me in saying economy is only one factor as if I said it.  Why not quote one of the 7 things I actually said if meant to differ from what I said as a quote?

Because I disagreed with the other 6

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Because I disagreed with the other 6

That's super.  But why quote me as if I said economy?  I did say efficiency.  Its a fact that Mooney is more efficient than most and fast at the same time.  Since you disagree I will assume you say it is less efficient than what, half of the others?  2/3 of the others?

So you disagree that Mooney is faster?  Its what I said.  Surely you are not going to argue that the Cirrus handles better.  I would say that road feel is the Cirrus' worst quality.  Ok you disagree when I said style - and I said such things are in the eye of the beholder.  I hate the Clorox bottle look of cirrus but I know many love it which is ... in the eye of the beholder.

Its as if I quoted you and said made of modern plastic is only one factor of best in class.   

[chriscalandro]

No I think you’re right about the cirrus handling, especially spin recovery, but I honestly wouldn’t put the Mooney up there in that regard either, and I don’t think anyone else would. Standard maneuvers are certainly better in the Mooney. 
 

but I’ve flown the diamond da40 and the bonanza, the arrow, SR22t, an RV10, the 210, the ovation, a glasair, and a Lacair. 
 

I'm hoping to get to ride in a DA50

the 40 was the most ergonomic, comfortable, and controllable of the group. I’m imagining the 50 is the same but better. 
 

the RV10 was the best, but that can vary with builder and it’s experimental, which to me is a huge plus, but might be outside the scope of this conversation. Then the diamond, then the Lancair, then the cirrus,(I found it way more comfortable and better equipped. I quite liked the side stick) then the Mooney, then the Arrow, Bonanza, 

[aviatoreb]

34 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

No I think you’re right about the cirrus handling, especially spin recovery, but I honestly wouldn’t put the Mooney up there in that regard either, and I don’t think anyone else would. Standard maneuvers are certainly better in the Mooney. 
 

but I’ve flown the diamond da40 and the bonanza, the arrow, SR22t, an RV10, the 210, the ovation, a glasair, and a Lacair. 
 

I'm hoping to get to ride in a DA50

the 40 was the most ergonomic, comfortable, and controllable of the group. I’m imagining the 50 is the same but better. 
 

the RV10 was the best, but that can vary with builder and it’s experimental, which to me is a huge plus, but might be outside the scope of this conversation. Then the diamond, then the Lancair, then the cirrus,(I found it way more comfortable and better equipped. I quite liked the side stick) then the Mooney, then the Arrow, Bonanza, 

I mean road feel when I said handling. The Mooney feels really nice and pleasant to fly. I don't think the Cirrus is a joy to hand fly at all.  The Mooney is no aerobatic plane so if we are comparing to an Extra 300 for handling as in aerobatic capabilities, forget about it.  I don't mean forgiving as in bullet proof for a beginner like a Cessna 150 so as a forgiving primary trainer, don't do it.  Or even a Diamond DA20.

I used to own a Diamond Da40.  I liked it a lot.  Actually I liked something a lot about just about every airplane I have ever been in, but I have not liked everything better about every plane.

DA40 is a good balance between forgiving plane suitable for primary training and still a decent cross country machine with decent speed.  Mine went 145tas on an IO360.

The DA40 was a very nice handling airplane from the stand point of it did have good road feel, but not as good as the Mooney since I considered it too twitchy so tiresome to hand fly cross country,  more like a dune buggy ride vs the Mooney audi stable type ride.  I also loved the center stick of the DA40 but I also hated it since I found it much more difficult to accurately separate the two axis of control when doing a cross controlled landing in cross winds.  I found the seating to be very very incomfortable.  Hard seats at a fixed angle that would make my back hurt over flights more than an hour and I have seen others complain of that over on diamondaviators.net  - and for a tall person, it just does not have enough leg room so a three hour flight left me like a pretzel. Egress is fantastic in the DA40 with those great gull doors.  Fit and finish is like the cirrus but better in terms of perfect lines.  They were absolutely the worst company in the business in terms of supporting their customers.  For that reason alone I would never buy another Diamond product.  I have seen comparable complaints over on diamondaviators.  They do have excellent products.  Oh and the DA40 has the best safety stats in the business with or without a parachute.  The DA50 looks great but for the company I wouldn't go near it.  And for that much money if I were spending I would buy something turbine.

Like I said, every airplane I have been in I have loved and some things I haven't about them.  Mooney is the one I have chosen for my own quirky likes and dislikes is just right for me for over ten years now, and for the foreseeable future.

Edited September 2, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Igor_U]

6 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

All new, no more disks. I have photos, but they are not for me to share publically. The upgrade I am sure will not be inexpensive, but will be the #1 upgrade on everyones list that have inner gear doors.

Mike,

That's interesting. Could share what the time frame when we can expect the announcement, photos? We are talking now about all new landing gear design. I suspect FAA approval might take a while (2nd door took a long time) but could it be they can use landing gear similar to M22? After all, wings are "the same"... 

[chriscalandro]

31 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

  The DA50 looks great but for the company I wouldn't go near it.  And for that much money if I were spending I would buy something turbine.

I don’t disagree with the turbine at all. I was comparing the buyer of a factory new airplane. (Someone’s gotta but one)

 

In that mentality I have dual Dynons in my C. I have about 75 in it by the time I paint it and every capability as a new anything. 
 

downsides, one difficult to get out of door, tight cabin, limited space.  
 

But I have a Johnson bar and low maintenance costs. 

 

if I were an airplane buyer on a budget I’d do exactly what I just did again. It’s hard to beat the old Mooney’s for value. 
 

but a new Mooney?  Na. Not my first second or third choice. 

[eman1200]

after a quick scan of this thread, here's a brief summary:

• mooney doing 'stuff'
• tesla bad
• no tesla good
• news flash: africa is a continent
• jetpacks > mooneys
• crocodiles are scary
• the old chute vs twin autoland debate

 

no matter what mooney does in the future, is there anyone here on mooneyspace who's in the market for a new plane?  any NEW plane?  anyone?  just curious.

 

[gsengle]

after a quick scan of this thread, here's a brief summary:

• mooney doing 'stuff'
• tesla bad
• no tesla good
• news flash: africa is a continent
• jetpacks > mooneys
• crocodiles are scary
• the old chute vs twin autoland debate

 
no matter what mooney does in the future, is there anyone here on mooneyspace who's in the market for a new plane?  any NEW plane?  anyone?  just curious.
 

People join mooneyspace after they choose to buy or have bought, we aren’t the target market so that’s a little misleading. And yeah I might be willing to fork over some real cash to Mooney for the max gross increase including new gear and cowl...


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[eman1200]

Just now, gsengle said:

People join mooneyspace after they choose to buy or have bought, we aren’t the target market so that’s a little misleading. And yeah I might be willing to fork over some real cash to Mooney for the max gross increase including new gear and cowl...


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it's not misleading anything, it's a simple question.  mooneyspace isn't the entire target market, but it's the one I'm asking.