Touch and Go's not recommended? Why?

[PHFlyer08]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

Do you get to do much training with the 201?

What are the typical customers for that plane looking to do?
 

-a-

Typically it’s people needing their 10 hrs of complex training on the way to a commercial cert. Others want more cross-country capability than the fixed gear planes provide. 
 

Thanks for the warm welcome!

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, PHFlyer08 said:

Typically it’s people needing their 10 hrs of complex training on the way to a commercial cert. Others want more cross-country capability than the fixed gear planes provide. 

Glad your school still has a complex aircraft.  The local school has retired its retractable gear planes. FAR 61.129 now says a TAA may be substituted for the complex hours so commercial training is in a Cirrus SR20.   

[PHFlyer08]

5 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Glad your school still has a complex aircraft.  The local school has retired its retractable gear planes. FAR 61.129 now says a TAA may be substituted for the complex hours so commercial training is in a Cirrus SR20.   

Our fleet is well cared for but more “classic”.   The 201 sure is fun to fly!

[thinwing]

On 8/26/2020 at 5:22 PM, gsxrpilot said:

The Commercial ticket requires 10 night landings but no mention of them being full stop. I've done 10 T&G's at night to meet that requirement.

ha ha..me too!they are called bounces!

[KB4]

By Cej,
June 3 in Mooney Safety & Accident Discussion

 

Check this guys post.  Still want to do touch and go's in a Mooney?

[N201MKTurbo]

51 minutes ago, KB4 said:

By Cej,
June 3 in Mooney Safety & Accident Discussion

 

Check this guys post.  Still want to do touch and go's in a Mooney?

What does it have to do with doing touch and gos, other than he had just done some.

Do you think the bad touch and go karma caused his gear to collapse?

[eman1200]

a little early for Halloween but scaaaarrryyyy TnG's!

 

Actually power off 180 TnG's.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, KB4 said:

By Cej,
June 3 in Mooney Safety & Accident Discussion

 

Check this guys post.  Still want to do touch and go's in a Mooney?

Yes.

I’m wondering what lessons you drew from the discussion of a landing gear collapse on a taxiway. 

[KB4]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

What does it have to do with doing touch and gos, other than he had just done some.

Do you think the bad touch and go karma caused his gear to collapse?

Could have had everything, nothing, or something to do with the collapse.  My guess is "nothing" Speculation only.   Recent annual--ok good my next thing I want to know---Tube over pitot and squeeze/someone sitting to read AS at point gear retracts!!!!???????--hmmm you sure that was done mister A&P. If he had smooth buttery landings or even a bounce or 2 or 3 or 4, I cant see why the gear would be affected other than cycling which shouldn't cause a collapse.  Squat switch failed is my guess. 

 

No Lessons, just going with what the old timer's say about t/g's in Mooney with elec gear.  Can they be done safely--of course.  But not recommended, if you need some currency just fly out 3-5 miles and come back in it will only take you an hour to get ur 3 in AND your Lycoming will be happier.  That's what I heard anyway. I get the time between landing and power cycling is only difference.  

 

To each his own.  I don't drink the "can't or won't happen to me" kool-aid for anything in aviation.    

 

[1980Mooney]

On 9/1/2020 at 9:26 PM, V1VRV2 said:

This guy should be dead.....

 

Why?...Shouldn't every pilot be able to properly match pitch and power to the selected landing configuration in order to arrest rate of descent and control speed?...and do it in a stabilized manner without wildly racing the trim wheel up or down?  What is so alarming or amazing about this video to a properly trained Mooney pilot?

[V1VRV2]

You didn't get the sarcasm... did you?

[MooneyMitch]

Why not me (in a Mooney) ? 

Dees guys doin’ it all morning here at beautiful SMX ! 

[carusoam]

There seems to be some fine print at the bottom of the video...
 

Professional pilots on a closed course... 

-a-

[A64Pilot]

You know when I started to read this thread I figured that surely the logic was that needlessly cycling the gear wears it out and more maintenance or chance of eventual gear failure.

‘I was astonished at what I read.

‘I got my airplane Commercial rating in Killeen Tx in 1989 in brand new J model AT’s, and we did seemingly no end of touch and go’s, just like any other airplane.

So far as excessive pitch with power, there is an easy answer to that, stop running the trim all the way up on landing, the Mooney doesn’t have all that much excessive pitch forces compared to other aircraft, My Maule with 20 something feet of 48 degree flaps and an IO-540 however did, but so what your strong enough to hold it until you retrim aren’t you? many have electric trim so you don’t even have to hold the yoke single handed and or can retrim if you are.

A purpose of touch and go’s other than simple practice landing is to train for the eventual go-around, which will happen from wildlife or all kinds of other unexpected things, and you need to be comfortable going around in landing configuration, because landing at night you suddenly see that black feral hog standing 100 feet in front of you, you only have two choices, go around in current configuration or hit him, and hitting a hog is like hitting a stump.

 

In my opinion, you should be trained to do any kind of landing and or balked landing the aircraft is capable of, I wouldn’t practice landing in trees or ditching, but you should be trained how to.

‘But to try to argue that T&G’s are unsafe or cause negative habit transfer isn’t correct , they are only unsafe or cause negative habit transfer if they are done incorrectly, just like everything else.

‘I was flying in France and saw two or three Boeing 747’s in the pattern somewhere doing touch and go’s. I don’t remember where, we were on our way to Dax France

‘Drive by NAS Jax and watch the P3’s and 737’s in the pattern, doing touch and go’s, or drive up to Panama City and watch the F22’s doing you guessed it, touch and go’s, or Savannah at the Gulfstream plant and watch the G650’s doing touch and go’s.

‘So why can’t a Mooney do it safely if way larger much more complex aircraft can?

Having said that I rarely do them myself, because I’m a CB and don’t want to needlessly cycle my gear so when I do, I leave the gear down, but then I won’t cycle my gear either up or down unless I’m in the white arc either, which is another topic I guess.

Sort of glad this came up, it reminds me I need to do some balked landing practice cause it’s been a long time.

[N201MKTurbo]

4 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

You know when I started to read this thread I figured that surely the logic was that needlessly cycling the gear wears it out and more maintenance or chance of eventual gear failure.

‘I was astonished at what I read.

‘I got my airplane Commercial rating in Killeen Tx in 1989 in brand new J model AT’s, and we did seemingly no end of touch and go’s, just like any other airplane.

So far as excessive pitch with power, there is an easy answer to that, stop running the trim all the way up on landing, the Mooney doesn’t have all that much excessive pitch forces compared to other aircraft, My Maule with 20 something feet of 48 degree flaps and an IO-540 however did, but so what your strong enough to hold it until you retrim aren’t you? many have electric trim so you don’t even have to hold the yoke single handed and or can retrim if you are.

A purpose of touch and go’s other than simple practice landing is to train for the eventual go-around, which will happen from wildlife or all kinds of other unexpected things, and you need to be comfortable going around in landing configuration, because landing at night you suddenly see that black feral hog standing 100 feet in front of you, you only have two choices, go around in current configuration or hit him, and hitting a hog is like hitting a stump.

 

In my opinion, you should be trained to do any kind of landing and or balked landing the aircraft is capable of, I wouldn’t practice landing in trees or ditching, but you should be trained how to.

‘But to try to argue that T&G’s are unsafe or cause negative habit transfer isn’t correct , they are only unsafe or cause negative habit transfer if they are done incorrectly, just like everything else.

‘I was flying in France and saw two or three Boeing 747’s in the pattern somewhere doing touch and go’s. I don’t remember where, we were on our way to Dax France

‘Drive by NAS Jax and watch the P3’s and 737’s in the pattern, doing touch and go’s, or drive up to Panama City and watch the F22’s doing you guessed it, touch and go’s, or Savannah at the Gulfstream plant and watch the G650’s doing touch and go’s.

‘So why can’t a Mooney do it safely if way larger much more complex aircraft can?

Having said that I rarely do them myself, because I’m a CB and don’t want to needlessly cycle my gear so when I do, I leave the gear down, but then I won’t cycle my gear either up or down unless I’m in the white arc either, which is another topic I guess.

Sort of glad this came up, it reminds me I need to do some balked landing practice cause it’s been a long time.

Wow, you are late to this party. 

Don't try to change anybody's mind. It is like getting NRA folks to vote democrat.

[carusoam]

14 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

 

‘So why can’t a Mooney do it safely if way larger much more complex aircraft can?

 

the long thread...

That goes on for decades...

Is all about a brain function called “distraction”...

 

If you have seen the video of a plane with two people onboard, ignoring the gear up warning, landing with all the scraping sounds...

You have seen distraction in action...

Its a technical human thing...

People that fly 747s are fully trained in distractions...  and when flying is their full time job, they are trained in how to handle distractions...

Anyone that is a CFI uses distraction as part of their training tool box...

If you have a sterile cockpit rule... you are already combatting distraction...

If not familiar with how the brain gets overloaded and off loads important things... without warning...

Keep reading...

It’s fun to be human...

More simply put...

Some people avoid TnGs to avoid the risk of GU landings...

The TnGs don’t add very much to their skill...

The cost of GU landings makes them less interesting...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

20 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

So why can’t a Mooney do it safely if way larger much more complex aircraft can?

I also did many TnGs in my Mooney during Instrumnt training, most with my CFII sitting beside me. No harm done.

Everyone has a different risk acceptance profile. To me, rolling along the runway at 50-60 mph, holding throttle to Idle and reaching out ine finger to retract the flaps before pushung the throttle forward and rotating again is low risk; to others, it's high risk.

Kind of like those drivers you get behind who won't go above 50mph, and brake for every curve in the road, because speed kills. Or because they think that the posted speed limit is too fast. Or because they're stubborn. Or . . . .

Same logic applies here.

Go your merry way, and do your own thing. Just realize that everyone is different, and that what's correct and acceptable to you isn't a natural law that should apply to everyone.

[GeeBee]

20 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

You know when I started to read this thread I figured that surely the logic was that needlessly cycling the gear wears it out and more maintenance or chance of eventual gear failure.

‘I was astonished at what I read.

‘I got my airplane Commercial rating in Killeen Tx in 1989 in brand new J model AT’s, and we did seemingly no end of touch and go’s, just like any other airplane.

So far as excessive pitch with power, there is an easy answer to that, stop running the trim all the way up on landing, the Mooney doesn’t have all that much excessive pitch forces compared to other aircraft, My Maule with 20 something feet of 48 degree flaps and an IO-540 however did, but so what your strong enough to hold it until you retrim aren’t you? many have electric trim so you don’t even have to hold the yoke single handed and or can retrim if you are.

A purpose of touch and go’s other than simple practice landing is to train for the eventual go-around, which will happen from wildlife or all kinds of other unexpected things, and you need to be comfortable going around in landing configuration, because landing at night you suddenly see that black feral hog standing 100 feet in front of you, you only have two choices, go around in current configuration or hit him, and hitting a hog is like hitting a stump.

 

In my opinion, you should be trained to do any kind of landing and or balked landing the aircraft is capable of, I wouldn’t practice landing in trees or ditching, but you should be trained how to.

‘But to try to argue that T&G’s are unsafe or cause negative habit transfer isn’t correct , they are only unsafe or cause negative habit transfer if they are done incorrectly, just like everything else.

‘I was flying in France and saw two or three Boeing 747’s in the pattern somewhere doing touch and go’s. I don’t remember where, we were on our way to Dax France

‘Drive by NAS Jax and watch the P3’s and 737’s in the pattern, doing touch and go’s, or drive up to Panama City and watch the F22’s doing you guessed it, touch and go’s, or Savannah at the Gulfstream plant and watch the G650’s doing touch and go’s.

‘So why can’t a Mooney do it safely if way larger much more complex aircraft can?

Having said that I rarely do them myself, because I’m a CB and don’t want to needlessly cycle my gear so when I do, I leave the gear down, but then I won’t cycle my gear either up or down unless I’m in the white arc either, which is another topic I guess.

Sort of glad this came up, it reminds me I need to do some balked landing practice cause it’s been a long time.

The routine in doing a T&G in a two man cockpit, transport category aircraft, with a Check Airman is much different than a single engine, single pilot airplane. Equally so, the cockpit layout and systems are different enough it precludes gear and flap errors as well as negative training.

 

[FlyingDude]

On 8/26/2020 at 3:13 AM, EarthboundMisfit said:

I've read in a few threads opinion recommending against performing touch and go's in a Mooney.  I'm a curious as to why this suggestion is made?  If you're in the "no touch and go" camp, can you share your thoughts? 

We discussed that during my commercial and CFI training. The simple answer was that during a T&G you need to retract flaps from full to clean or 10deg swiftly and there have been instances where people inadvertently pulled up the gear switch instead of the flap switch, or they slapped the gear switch up while trying to reach for the flap - and the pull-out safety mechanism was broken, and the switch actually moved. That's a big concern in a C172RG, as both systems are electric and switches are close to one another, even if they are different.

With the Piper Arrow, T&G's were not a big deal, as the flap is manual and gear is electric. With my mooney, changes of mistaking the johnson bar for the flap release pin are slimmer.

So it depends on your plane. Well, also on you, because you must always be vigilant to never think of one and actuate the other

[A64Pilot]

The gear switch being inadvertently fumbled instead of flaps is a very real concern with a Beech Bonanza, for one thing they are real close to each other and to add insult to injury, they are out of sight.

‘But we aren't Bonanza’s, you really can’t confuse gear for flaps in a Mooney, you can grab the wrong handle, the best way to prevent that is practice 

Keep on not practicing for what I can assure you will happen if you fly very much and that’s a go around after landing, maybe you’ll pull it off never having practiced it, most likely will, but I can assure you that when the time comes, if you have practiced the maneuver, success is more likely.

Any of the prop strikes from PIO could have been prevented by going around, and once in a great while it’s simply better to go around rather than to use your superior skill to save a bad approach

‘What’s the fascination of I have to retract the flaps? I can assure you it will fly just fine with full flaps, even at max gross, it’s a requirement to demonstrate that for Certification, as well as being controllable.

Aircraft I built had 40 degrees of flap as a piston aircraft, once it got a turbine the flaps were restricted to 15 degrees, due to excessive pitch forces on a balked landing with the higher HP, any aircraft Certified is capable of a balked landing at full flaps, at max gross weight and at extremes of allowable CG.

Edited April 2, 2021 by A64Pilot

[FlyingDude]

33 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I can assure you it will fly just fine with full flaps, even at max gross, i

It flys alright but it doesn't climb. Yes I tried it at a 8000' runway when I first got the plane just to see how she handles.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The gear switch being inadvertently fumbled instead of flaps is a very real concern with a Beech Bonanza, for one thing they are real close to each other and to add insult to injury, they are out of sight.

‘But we aren't Bonanza’s, you really can’t confuse gear for flaps in a Mooney, you can grab the wrong handle, the best way to prevent that is practice 

Keep on not practicing for what I can assure you will happen if you fly very much and that’s a go around after landing, maybe you’ll pull it off never having practiced it, most likely will, but I can assure you that when the time comes, if you have practiced the maneuver, success is more likely.

Any of the prop strikes from PIO could have been prevented by going around, and once in a great while it’s simply better to go around rather than to use your superior skill to save a bad approach

‘What’s the fascination of I have to retract the flaps? I can assure you it will fly just fine with full flaps, even at max gross, it’s a requirement to demonstrate that for Certification, as well as being controllable.

Aircraft I built had 40 degrees of flap as a piston aircraft, once it got a turbine the flaps were restricted to 15 degrees, due to excessive pitch forces on a balked landing with the higher HP, any aircraft Certified is capable of a balked landing at full flaps, at max gross weight and at extremes of allowable CG.

I think I remember reading somewhere that at low speeds (near Vy), full flaps actually causes more drag than having the gear extended.   Above some speed, extended gear causes more drag than full flaps.  Hence, the procedure to first pull flaps to 1/2 on a balked landing.

Realistically, I suspect they're pretty close, and I will admit to raising the gear first on some balked landings because it takes less brain power--the electric flaps need you to flip the switch up, then flip it back down at 1/2 flaps, while the landing gear you just flip up.  I figure in a gusty balked landing with lots of traffic around, preserving brainpower is more important than some percentage points difference in drag.

[jaylw314]

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

the long thread...

That goes on for decades...

Oh come on, -a-, this thread's only a year old!   Wasn't there a different super-long T&G thread?

[carusoam]

Wait...

We can add this to the other thread of attitudes that can get us in trouble...  

 

1) bad stuff only happens to the other guys....

2) It won’t happen to me because....

3) It can’t happen in this plane because the switch is shaped like...

4) I’d never confuse the J-bar being up when I don’t see it...

5) You have to be an X to have this happen to you... (fill in your own personal offensive X)

 

6) Yet there are people that share a phrase...  something like...

There are two types of retract pilots... those that have and those that will...

 

The fun part of this overly long derivative thread....

A64 won’t have a GU landing...

It will always be on his mind...

Probably for the wrong reason... 

But, anything that makes you want to check the gear being down and locked will work...

 

remember to check the attitude... because...

1) A GU landing is expensive... 10s of AMUs...

2) That expense isn’t just on the shoulders of the pilot/owner...

3) the expense... rightly or wrongly, true or false, shows up in everybody’s insurance premium...

4) Adding fuel to the fire...

Be careful what you say... and how you say it...  it can come back and haunt you later...

 

It must be tough being a perfect human being...  people expect so much perfection from you...

 

Paying for insurance must be really annoying...  when you are a perfect human being...

That’s an expense that you really don’t expect to get anything out of...  worse than a PPI... and it’s every year... 

 

PP fun ideas only, there are two ways to know the gear is down, use them both...

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

So I've always been in the no T&G camp and haven't fully left it.  I do them on occasion on long runways to shake things up or to get out of dodge in a crowded landing pattern, and they aren't a huge deal for a well-briefed pilot knowing what to expect.  I think doing repeated T&G's, the way we all did when we first learned in training aircraft is a bad idea, and I won't do it.  Too easy to get distracted, think you lowered the gear when you haven't.  Landing patterns in crowded GA airports are a good place to get distracted.  And humans are distractible by nature.  

I think if you aren't knowing what to expect a T&G can be a real attention getter.  That said, I agree that anyone should be able to go around in any phase of landing.