Landing a Mooney Ovation

[Fly_M20R]

Hello Everyone!!

I have owned several Mooneys, starting with a 1984 201, followed by two 252's, two "M" Models and finally my current Ovation and have logged close around 2.300 hours in all of them and flown them everywhere in the U.S and also to see Angel Falls in Venezuela. I found that I could "roll on" practically all my landings in every Mooney except for my current Ovation. I would throttle back approaching or crossing the threshold and then just run the trim in ground effect and they would roll on all the time. This 1995 Ovation has taken me a while to master and I believe that it is because of the slick cowling without cowl flaps making it a bit more tricky to keep the final approach speed nailed as well as the nose not coming up completely after running the trim. Also, the somewhat limited view over the higher glare shield in the 1995 model change the landing "picture" compared to the other Mooneys. I do not use speed brakes on final since I prefer to master the "clean" technique with correct approach speed and believe it "rolls-on" better without them. I did this video on landing the Ovation and hope it helps those that may be interested. 

https://youtu.be/hnFt4vGmm7s

 

 

[Hank]

 Check out Don Kaye's landing video--he's the long body master. Ovations sit at a different angle in the ground, so the sight picture will be different from your previous mid-bodies.

[Fly_M20R]

Hi Hank!

Thank you for the comment re long bodies sitting higher. However, as I said in my post I have owned two other long bodies, a TLS and a Bravo (both M models) and have close to 1,000 hrs in those two. Always had roll-on landings on mains with those two long bodies as with the J and K's when running the trim on ground effect. Just running the trim on the Ovation (at least my 1995 model) is not enough. Need to apply some back pressure on the yoke as well. I did not even run the trim on the video I posted because I was trying out just using the yoke, either because my manual electric trim switch was shot (later repaired) or just to add another twist to landing it. I cannot remember the actual reason.

The Ovation does behave differently than the Bravo's, even the speed brakes are slightly larger surface area and drop you at 1,000 fpm rather than 500 fpm in the Bravo. It's a different bird!!

Thanks again!

Chris

[gsxrpilot]

Nice job on the video. It's very well put together and produced. The flying is nice as well. All those Mooney hours are showing well.

Thanks for posting.

[Fly_M20R]

Thank you! 

I did have a few unnecessary pitch inputs just prior to landing but worked out OK. 

[mike_elliott]

Looks like you have the right habits Chris. Perhaps a slightly low short final, but really that is pickin the nits. It is not uncommon to have the fine tune the elevator in the flare for the conditions you have as you are well aware. Well done!

[Oscar Avalle]

Chris nice videos!

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, mike_elliott said:

Perhaps a slightly low short final

File that under "Runway behind is useless"

[Fly_M20R]

Thanks guys!

I am editing one I did on stalls, clean and landing configuration and with and without speed brakes for both of those. Interesting results...

Coming soon...

[carusoam]

I saw the title come up... but haven’t gotten this far yet...

Still looking forward to watching the video...

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

A friend bought an early Ovation after a K model and ran into the issue with that final pitch attitude. He asked me to try a landing (my first in an Ovation) to see if I had a suggestion. My landing was fine due to a combination of about equal parts experience experience in multiple types and dumb luck

My suggestion: I asked him if he had flown Cessnas. After a yes, I just told him to land it like a 182. Don't be afraid to cover the runway and use peripheral vision for situational awareness (the Lindberg method, since there's a thread talking about him).

[Cruiser]

I have found that a full flap, power off combinations below 80 kts. results in nearly zero elevator authority in the flare.  You will fly right into the runway. Pulling the yoke back has little effect on arresting the descent. 

It is better to keep a little power on 

[Fly_M20R]

Good comment on the "Lindberg" approach midlifefliyer. I don't focus on it but may be using it subconsciously. The sight picture is a bit different and the impression is that one is still a bit high when in reality close to the runway. So I also found that by cranking the seat a bit lower helps as well. May be forcing a "Lindberg" look.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Fly_M20R
misspelling

[Fly_M20R]

5 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

I have found that a full flap, power off combinations below 80 kts. results in nearly zero elevator authority in the flare.  You will fly right into the runway. Pulling the yoke back has little effect on arresting the descent. 

It is better to keep a little power on 

Hi Cruiser,

That has not happened to me. As a matter of fact you can see in the video that I am using some small yoke inputs and the nose goes up and down accordingly. I had not run the trim in that landng. As another example, you still have elevator control as you approach the stall in a power off stall in landing configuration. 

Keeping a bit of power will help in keeping the nose up but you will end up with a longer landing... 

Chris

[Cruiser]

try a trim up, full flap, no power approach (throttle on the stop) with a 500 FPM descent from over the fence. 

[Fly_M20R]

20 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

try a trim up, full flap, no power approach (throttle on the stop) with a 500 FPM descent from over the fence. 

Is that the configuration in which you fly right into the runway?

I haven't tried that since I keep 75 kts on final and then slowly reduce power as I am approaching the fence and power off as I start flaring by running the trim. Speed right past the fence slows to 70 as I start the flare. I have good elevator control throughout. Even after landing where I can keep the nose up with elevator until it slows to below 40 KIAS. 

When I practice touch and goes I most often land power off on the mains and keep the nose up w elevator and for fun roll down the runway some w nose up and then smootly apply power to take off again. Keep on centerline w rudders.

You may be having such a steep approach that you are caught getting to the ground a bit faster than you can arrest with the elevator. (????)

Edited August 4, 2020 by Fly_M20R
misspelling

[mike_elliott]

The trick to learn is how to progressively decrease a sink rate from 500'/minute to a stall being an inch off the runway when entering the flare in ground effect. You are correct the Ovations are a bit slipperier than their fire breathing brothers the M, TN, and V. Of course nailing your speed for your given landing weight helps, but still requires this fine touch, something that doesn't always work out just right  ask me how I know. Sight picture is key on when to begin the flare of course and how (un)aggressive you have to be. I have noticed the newer U's are slicker than the R's also. Perhaps the Jonathan paint jobs are the reason, as all but one of the U's I have flown he has done and they are slick.

 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Fly_M20R said:

When I practice touch and goes I most often land power off on the mains and keep the nose up w elevator and for fun roll down the runway some w nose up and then smootly apply power to take off again. Keep on centerline w rudders.

My favorite "soft field" demo.

[carusoam]

One thing for sure...

You guys get lots of practice!

Trying to keep the nose off the ground.... is not in my skill set... too fine of a balance....

For me... There is a full microsecond between the mains touching, and the nose coming down... not much more...

 

I’m not a big fan of using the power trim near the ground... electric motors, driving gear boxes, near the end limit.... sounds like a jammed control could happen this way... (an issue I am concerned about as this thing ages....)

Trim switch in one hand, monitoring motion with the other... Eyes out the window...

Thanks for letting me part of your conversation...

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

Trying to keep the nose off the ground.... is not in my skill set... too fine of a balance..

LOL! A bit of context. When I started teaching, I was faced with the conundrum of teaching soft field takeoffs and landings on a 7000 foot paved runway. I would explain that the landing technique was useful for other things. Snow and slush. Suspected nose wheel damage or failure. Things like that. I started calling it the "finesse landing." I'd use the soft field landing/soft field takeoff without the nosewheel touching strictly as a "finesse" demo. But students insisted on trying it too. 

I don't teach primary any more. Never tried in an Ovation. Don't do them as a matter of course. My last one was spur of the moment in a J 3-4 years ago. It was my annual club checkout and my instructor asked for a soft field landing, I couldn't resist touching down and rolling half way down the runway with the nose held off the ground. I was actually surprised I could still do it. He was too

[StevenL757]

On 8/4/2020 at 8:23 AM, Cruiser said:

I have found that a full flap, power off combinations below 80 kts. results in nearly zero elevator authority in the flare.  You will fly right into the runway. Pulling the yoke back has little effect on arresting the descent. 

It is better to keep a little power on 

I haven't found this to be true at all...under any weather/wind conditions.  80KIAS over the numbers will result in a float that requires you to bleed off more power to allow the airplane to settle into the flare properly.  For every 1 knot you are fast over the fence, add 100 feet of runway distance to get the airplane stopped under normal braking action and assuming no adverse braking action reports.

As I've commented on several times here, the airplane will tell you when she no longer wants to fly.  Listen to her!  :-)

[PMcClure]

The other day, there was a group of pilots doing landings at our local field grading each other on their landings. I happened to be coming in from a long cross country and unexpectedly entered their activities. After warning me there would be a grade given for my landing, I asked if they wanted a smooth landing or a short landing. After a long pause, they said a "good landing".  I squeaked it on and rolled out with the nose up (nice when it works out). Point being, each landing may have a different need and purpose. If you need it short, you better be on speed, and it probably won't be smooth. But with a little extra speed and finesse over the runway you can grease them on, but you better have the RR to roll out. Hold her off just enough until she gives up flight. 

Like Anthony, I use manual trim on final as I don't think the electric trim is fast enough for the changing needs. I also try to stay away from power adjustments on short final. I have had a couple exciting landings when I fat fisted the throttle controls. And carrying power on final can lead to excessively long floats. One time I flew in ground effect nearly 4,000 ft before I realized I had a little too much power left in. Just my 2 cents! 

[Fly_M20R]

9 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

LOL! A bit of context. When I started teaching, I was faced with the conundrum of teaching soft field takeoffs and landings on a 7000 foot paved runway. I would explain that the landing technique was useful for other things. Snow and slush. Suspected nose wheel damage or failure. Things like that. I started calling it the "finesse landing." I'd use the soft field landing/soft field takeoff without the nosewheel touching strictly as a "finesse" demo. But students insisted on trying it too. 

I don't teach primary any more. Never tried in an Ovation. Don't do them as a matter of course. My last one was spur of the moment in a J 3-4 years ago. It was my annual club checkout and my instructor asked for a soft field landing, I couldn't resist touching down and rolling half way down the runway with the nose held off the ground. I was actually surprised I could still do it. He was too

Hi Midlifeflyer,

Once you have mastered it you will be able to do it a lot of the time and it looks like you are a master! Of course there will be landings that you wish no one had seen. It seems that the ones that are really good no one ever sees! LOL!!

I like to do it in every landing I can just to protect the nose gear since it is the most likely to have undue stresses on it with the weight of the engine, etc. It also protects the engine mounts from damage. When I purchased my 1995 Ovation 3 years ago one of the engine mounts had a minimal bend on it that at one time seemed OK with the Mooney factory. However, not when I purchased it. Therefore it needed to be reinforced and fixed. A bit pricey but was negotiated into the purchase price. It was most likely due to having had not so smooth landings with either flat landings or some "wheelbarrows" or  bounces. 

I went to an airport with a 7,000 foot runway to practice keeping the nose off after landing on mains for as long as I could. One needs a small amount of throttle to keep speed a bit above 40 kts. It is not easy since small changes in throttle and/or pitch will have a significant effect. 

One time I flew a 152 to an airport with a 7,000 foot runway with the FBO at the end of it and the tower told me to taxi on the runway to the end after landing. I had absolutely NO patience to putter along taxiing this 152 all the way down the runway after having landed in 700-900 feet. So, right after I landed I just kept the nose off the runway and "taxied" that way all the way down. A bit faster that way. LOL!

Edited August 5, 2020 by Fly_M20R
add a concept

[Fly_M20R]

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

One thing for sure...

You guys get lots of practice!

Trying to keep the nose off the ground.... is not in my skill set... too fine of a balance....

For me... There is a full microsecond between the mains touching, and the nose coming down... not much more...

 

I’m not a big fan of using the power trim near the ground... electric motors, driving gear boxes, near the end limit.... sounds like a jammed control could happen this way... (an issue I am concerned about as this thing ages....)

Trim switch in one hand, monitoring motion with the other... Eyes out the window...

Thanks for letting me part of your conversation...

Best regards,

-a-

Hi Carusoam,

It does require practice! At least for me the Ovation has been a bit of a challenge compared to the other Mooneys I have owned. My first landing was awesome and I am not sure if that was skill or luck!  After that it took many practice landings with different techniques to acquire the sight picture, throttle control, nose gear off after landing, etc. to get most of my landings how I like them. Still not 100% which I know is unrealistic!

[Fly_M20R]

6 hours ago, PMcClure said:

The other day, there was a group of pilots doing landings at our local field grading each other on their landings. I happened to be coming in from a long cross country and unexpectedly entered their activities. After warning me there would be a grade given for my landing, I asked if they wanted a smooth landing or a short landing. After a long pause, they said a "good landing".  I squeaked it on and rolled out with the nose up (nice when it works out). Point being, each landing may have a different need and purpose. If you need it short, you better be on speed, and it probably won't be smooth. But with a little extra speed and finesse over the runway you can grease them on, but you better have the RR to roll out. Hold her off just enough until she gives up flight. 

Like Anthony, I use manual trim on final as I don't think the electric trim is fast enough for the changing needs. I also try to stay away from power adjustments on short final. I have had a couple exciting landings when I fat fisted the throttle controls. And carrying power on final can lead to excessively long floats. One time I flew in ground effect nearly 4,000 ft before I realized I had a little too much power left in. Just my 2 cents! 

It does get exciting when one "fat fists" the throttle!! It has happened to me a few times as well.