M22 turbine power

[Chris Strube]

How much engineering would it take, to re-engine a Mustang M22 with a Walter 601?  Add the usual Lopresti speed mods, and I think it would be spectacular.

[Greg Ellis]

I think first difficulty would be finding one.  Take this for what its worth, there are 15 registered with the FAA, not sure about Canada, and of those only 2 of them have shown up on Flightaware.com as to having been flown recently.  One on 6/28/20 and one on 6/4/20.  All the others have not flown since 2018 and older.  The same gentleman that flew on 6/28/20 actually owns 2 M22's according to the FAA but the second one has not flown in a few years, probably used for parts.

[GDGR]

11 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

I think first difficulty would be finding one.  Take this for what its worth, there are 15 registered with the FAA, not sure about Canada, and of those only 2 of them have shown up on Flightaware.com as to having been flown recently.  One on 6/28/20 and one on 6/4/20.  All the others have not flown since 2018 and older.  The same gentleman that flew on 6/28/20 actually owns 2 M22's according to the FAA but the second one has not flown in a few years, probably used for parts.

If you search Mooney M22 in the Canadian Aircraft Registry, it comes up as blank. 

[aviatoreb]

Don't get me wrong - I would love to see the result of a project like this!

But you would be essentially taking a M22 experimental and you would need to buy a turbine engine and all in I bet runs a pretty penny, assuming it could be done.

If I were going this road I would also think of what it would cost to just buy a fully working ready to go experimental.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/188473913/2007-lancair-propjet

BTW - someone converted a pressurized twin Beech 36 to a single engine turbine I saw in pictures once - and it looked like one cool machine!

[Chris Strube]

John Lewis in SC has 2, one is flying regularly, and he says the other will be flying later this year.  He also has 1.5 more for parts.  Warren Pietsch in ND also has 2.  The reason I'm curious is that we are not happy with breathing oxygen, and would love to be pressurised.  An early Malibu is too expensive, and of the Cessna singles, only the 1985 P210R is capable, and it's also too expensive.  A P337 is cheap, but the maintenance rules it out.  Nice to dream at my age!

[carusoam]

Expect that if it could be done...

You would need...

1) A stack of cash...  (size large)

2) An STC...

 

Getting an STC written for a Mooney has been done several times...

The same organization has put turbines in brand P models...

Call Rocket Engineering and gauge their interest level...

-a-

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Chris Strube said:

John Lewis in SC has 2, one is flying regularly, and he says the other will be flying later this year.  He also has 1.5 more for parts.  Warren Pietsch in ND also has 2.  The reason I'm curious is that we are not happy with breathing oxygen, and would love to be pressurised.  An early Malibu is too expensive, and of the Cessna singles, only the 1985 P210R is capable, and it's also too expensive.  A P337 is cheap, but the maintenance rules it out.  Nice to dream at my age!

If you could get it added to the “Owner Maintenance Category “ by Transport Canada you might get away with the mod. Just no USA travel.

Clarence

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, Chris Strube said:

John Lewis in SC has 2, one is flying regularly, and he says the other will be flying later this year.  He also has 1.5 more for parts.  Warren Pietsch in ND also has 2.  The reason I'm curious is that we are not happy with breathing oxygen, and would love to be pressurised.  An early Malibu is too expensive, and of the Cessna singles, only the 1985 P210R is capable, and it's also too expensive.  A P337 is cheap, but the maintenance rules it out.  Nice to dream at my age!

Maintenance on my P337 was reasonable.

[Chris Strube]

Is Rocket Engineering still in business?  I can't find them.  Interesting about the P337 maintenance.  My '65 M20E Turbo is not cheap, at about 5 to 6 AMU's per year.  What is "reasonable"?

[Chris Strube]

17 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

If you could get it added to the “Owner Maintenance Category “ by Transport Canada you might get away with the mod. Just no USA travel.

Clarence

OM in Canada is only for simple fixed gear, fixed prop, low HP aircraft.

[takair]

Turbine M22 would be cool.  I have personally speculated that one that hasn’t flow in a while was in for conversion, but that was many years ago and I never heard more.  What about this:  http://griggsaircraft.com/fabrication/silver_eagle?  Or check out the Speedstar article here:  https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2011/september/01/family-rocket   This one was for sale, still may be.  Looks kind of interesting and fast.  Lots of pics if you google it, but not much detail.

 

[Hank]

8 hours ago, Chris Strube said:

How much engineering would it take, to re-engine a Mustang M22 with a Walter 601?  Add the usual Lopresti speed mods, and I think it would be spectacular.

Shouldn't be anything a DER can't handle . . . . .

[Chris Strube]

Love either of these, but they're both WAY too expensive.  Walter turbines are cheap compared to RR, Garrett or P&W.  As a thought experiment, the only sane thing is to forget it and keep my '65E Turbo...however!!!

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Chris Strube said:

OM in Canada is only for simple fixed gear, fixed prop, low HP aircraft.

Or unsupported types, the Mooney M20,A,&B are already on the list.  I think that you could successfully argue with Transport Canada that the M22 Mustang is unsupported.

Clarence

[aviatoreb]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Militaria-Aviation-Aviator-Pilot-Space-Helmet-Anti-Pressure-Flight-Suit/153988516951?hash=item23da6e4c57:g:y2gAAOSwcble-oR~

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Or unsupported types, the Mooney M20,A,&B are already on the list.  I think that you could successfully argue with Transport Canada that the M22 Mustang is unsupported.

Clarence

Canadian rules are way more reasonable so it seems!

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, Chris Strube said:

Is Rocket Engineering still in business?  I can't find them.  Interesting about the P337 maintenance.  My '65 M20E Turbo is not cheap, at about 5 to 6 AMU's per year.  What is "reasonable"?

See for yourself if they are still alive...

https://rocketengineering.com
 

Often, they are difficult to contact...

Take a look at their product line...

An M22 JetProp would be MSer heaven...
 

A sure sign that you have the drive to get er done... may require moving north.... 

Good fortune, Mr. Strube is already north of the border...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

Question - would it be possible to pressurize seal an M20 cabin?  Would would it take.  I am not asking about regulatory hurdles.  I am asking engineering could that be plausibly done - well what would it take?

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, Chris Strube said:

John Lewis in SC has 2, one is flying regularly, and he says the other will be flying later this year.  He also has 1.5 more for parts.  Warren Pietsch in ND also has 2.  The reason I'm curious is that we are not happy with breathing oxygen, and would love to be pressurised.  An early Malibu is too expensive, and of the Cessna singles, only the 1985 P210R is capable, and it's also too expensive.  A P337 is cheap, but the maintenance rules it out.  Nice to dream at my age!

If you think that an early Malibu is too expensive, then converting an M22 to a Walter Turbine and getting that all signed off (engineering, flight tests, etc, etc, etc) will easily be 10 times more than an early Malibu. It would be way less expensive to buy a higher time Piper Meridian if you want a single engine certified turbine.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Canadian rules are way more reasonable so it seems!

In some cases yes, in others no.  Here is a list of airframes which can be moved to Owner Maintenance.  One issue with the program is the US doesn’t have an equivalent program so these planes can’t cross the border.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-canada/corporate/acts-regulations/regulations/sor-96-433/part5-standards-a507sh-1837.htm

Clarence

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

In some cases yes, in others no.  Here is a list of airframes which can be moved to Owner Maintenance.  One issue with the program is the US doesn’t have an equivalent program so these planes can’t cross the border.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-canada/corporate/acts-regulations/regulations/sor-96-433/part5-standards-a507sh-1837.htm

Clarence

Well still a very resemble rule.  If the utility is limited by the US therefore limiting the range, its our fault.  Hey AOPA - go get'em!

[cctsurf]

14 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Question - would it be possible to pressurize seal an M20 cabin?  Would would it take.  I am not asking about regulatory hurdles.  I am asking engineering could that be plausibly done - well what would it take?

You need a pressure vessel that can take the pressure.  I think you would end up essentially redesigning and replacing the cabin.

I have to say, because my family has grown beyond the number of seats available on my m20, I've thought about designing and building my own homebuilt, modern take on the M22, using Mooney's wings and tail and designing a fuselage that would carry 6...with future provisions to add pressurization.  My understanding is that the airfoils on the M22 are the same as the M20...  I'd love a turbine on the front.

Edited July 3, 2020 by cctsurf
airfoils

[Igor_U]

On 7/2/2020 at 4:52 PM, M20Doc said:

If you could get it added to the “Owner Maintenance Category “ by Transport Canada you might get away with the mod. Just no USA travel.

Clarence

Clarence,

Does TC allow installing different engine on OMC aircraft? My recollection says no but could be wrong. M22 is not on the list but M20 to B are...

[EricJ]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:44 AM, Chris Strube said:

How much engineering would it take, to re-engine a Mustang M22 with a Walter 601?  Add the usual Lopresti speed mods, and I think it would be spectacular.

It would be a lot of work, so I think a PT-6, which is very similar to a Walter, would probably be worth it if one were to go to all the effort.

There are multiple examples out flying around of Cessna 340s that were converted from twin reciprocating engines to single turbine engines.   If people pull that off I'm sure converting an M22 to turbine could be done.    Still a lot of work, though.

Other than mounting and cowling the engine, the entire fuel system, tanks, pumps, pipes, etc., needs to be gone through, and turbine fueling and management is significantly different than avgas due to water and biological issues.

 

[Chris Strube]

The biggest difference between a Walter 601 and a PT6, is the price.  The Walter is almost a direct copy, but 1/4 the price.