Prior owner Posted July 16, 2020 Report Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, M20Doc said: Looking at your picture above and your confirmation of the routing at the cooler, I have to agree with Rob that the outlet from the engine to the cooler is using the upper alternate fitting. I would remove this hose and the fitting to verify that they are unrestricted. If they are clear, connect your pressure pot to the line and force oil to the cooler and verify that it flows to your line marked in green. Clarence Clarence, all hoses have been removed and cooler has been removed, flushed, cleaned in the ultrasonic and tested for flow. Both hoses are way too long (which is causing the tight bends), so I am going to replace them with ones that I will measure for proper fit. I will remove the output fitting to check for any restrictions, then connect my pressure pot To the system with a hose Connected to the cooler And check flow. Il report back this weekend. Thanks again, Dave 1 Quote
Prior owner Posted July 16, 2020 Report Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) Oil filter installation may be an issue- I don’t think my engine came with a vernatherm valve, and I don’t know if the accessory case was drilled for it. The Airwolf remote oil filter STC says that the upper outlet should be capped, and a vernatherm should not be installed if this is the case.. Ive got some tech rep calls to make... I believe that my accessory case is the one below.... airwolf kit comes with a cap for the plunger outlet that “must be used if the engine didn’t come with a vernatherm installed” Edited July 16, 2020 by PilotCoyote Quote
Prior owner Posted July 16, 2020 Report Posted July 16, 2020 I spoke with the Airwolf oil filter tech rep. The Oil cooler AND the filter hoses are all installed wrong for their STC remote oil filter installation.... Top fitting on accessory housing where oil cooler hose Is attached is supposed to be capped off. The oil is supposed to route from the oil filter housing (on the firewall) outlet to the oil cooler, then from the cooler to the airwolf adapter housing on the accesssory case (The one with the vernatherm in it). So, both of my oil cooler fittings on the accessory housing have to be plugged. This means 4 new hoses have to be ordered... I’ll update in a couple of weeks after I’ve got it configured correctly. 3 Quote
carusoam Posted July 16, 2020 Report Posted July 16, 2020 Wow! That’s a call to double check the whole remote filter install.... Since double checking, Coyote is now on to triple checking.... Make sure there is a vernatherm in there somewhere... the vernatherm is a temperature control device that is needed for best control of the engine’s temp... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
Prior owner Posted July 16, 2020 Report Posted July 16, 2020 Just now, carusoam said: Wow! That’s a call to double check the whole remote filter install.... Since double checking, Coyote is now on to triple checking.... Make sure there is a vernatherm in there somewhere... the vernatherm is a temperature control device that is needed for best control of the engine’s temp... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Exactly. The airwolf tech rep was adamant that the system have a vernatherm. He said that if the oil circulates continuously, it will just get hotter and hotter. Quote
carusoam Posted July 16, 2020 Report Posted July 16, 2020 When the engine is cold... the vernatherm keeps oil from going to the cooler.... As the oil warms up... more oil goes to the cooler... the vernatherm modulates some oil this way, the rest goes that way... When the oil is hot... the More oil that can go to the cooler, the better... The vernatherm and oil cooler are not exact oil temp controllers... but they work really well for the costs involved... For proper cooling... the airflow has to be good, not blocked in or out.... the oil flow has to be good, not blocked in or out... The oil pump needs to be working... it has two gears in the pump that may have had an AD For an aluminum gear in it...around Y2K... the aluminum gear was chosen to improve on the wear that is found when similar metals rub against each other.... Unfortunately, dissimilar metals rubbing together is even worse in some cases.... based on the difference in hardness... Note: find out if the gear pump is working properly... look for the AD, if your engine has it, make sure the aluminum gear was swapped out for a steel one... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
47U Posted July 17, 2020 Report Posted July 17, 2020 3 hours ago, PilotCoyote said: Top fitting on accessory housing where oil cooler hose Is attached is supposed to be capped off. The oil is supposed to route from the oil filter housing (on the firewall) outlet to the oil cooler, then from the cooler to the airwolf adapter housing on the accesssory case (The one with the vernatherm in it). Meaning, the remote oil filter housing and the oil cooler are in series. Interesting. No oil will be filtered until the vernatherm gets hot enough to open and divert oil to the remote oil filter housing, then to the oil cooler, and then back to the engine. I’m not aware if engines with the oil filter adapter on the accessory case are in series with the oil cooler (galleries internal in the accessory case?). Anyone? (Not an engine builder. I put together a mostly tore-down 22R once, but I’m not a Toyota expert, either.) tom 1 Quote
Prior owner Posted July 17, 2020 Report Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, 47U said: Meaning, the remote oil filter housing and the oil cooler are in series. Interesting. No oil will be filtered until the vernatherm gets hot enough to open and divert oil to the remote oil filter housing, then to the oil cooler, and then back to the engine. I’m not aware if engines with the oil filter adapter on the accessory case are in series with the oil cooler (galleries internal in the accessory case?). Anyone? (Not an engine builder. I put together a mostly tore-down 22R once, but I’m not a Toyota expert, either.) tom These are questions I wish I could answer, but without a torn apart A2D case in front of me with the original oil screen configuration, I’ll never figure it out... [Edit] [Edit] I need help identifying whether the picture below taken through the Airwolf oil screen adapter housing is, or is not, a hole in that has been machined for Vernatherm use. My engine originally came with an oil screen housing. The above adapter and spin on filter were installed 17 years ago, per the airframe logbook. A vernatherm was installed into the adapter at that time. I must verify that the accessory case is machined for a vernatherm before I may re-install it. If the case isn’t set up to accept a vernatherm, then a plug must be installed on the adapter where the vernatherm would normally be installed. Since I am not familiar with what an accessory case machined for a vernatherm looks like, and I cannot find any Relevant information online, I need someone who has actually seen a vernatherm port in a Lycoming case to compare their recollection with my picture above... Is this case machined for a vernatherm? Help! Edited July 17, 2020 by PilotCoyote Quote
Prior owner Posted July 17, 2020 Report Posted July 17, 2020 @47U has Graciously provided me with a document that answers all of my questions. I now know how the Older oil screen equipped Lycomings without a vernatherm are converted over, and what the options are for oil cooler hose routings... It is frustrating working with a modified aircraft when you cannot find information regarding its original configuration in order to follow its evolution to its current state. Thank you @47U !! Lycoming Service Instruction No. 1008C : https://www.lycoming.com/node/15780 I will not be connecting my oil cooler in series with the oil filter, as the tech rep suggested. Thanks also to @M20Doc ! Hopefully, the ramblings of this madman (Me) will now cease...! Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 17, 2020 Report Posted July 17, 2020 40 minutes ago, PilotCoyote said: @47U has Graciously provided me with a document that answers all of my questions. I now know how the Older oil screen equipped Lycomings without a vernatherm are converted over, and what the options are for oil cooler hose routings... It is frustrating working with a modified aircraft when you cannot find information regarding its original configuration in order to follow its evolution to its current state. Thank you @47U !! Lycoming Service Instruction No. 1008C : https://www.lycoming.com/node/15780 I will not be connecting my oil cooler in series with the oil filter, as the tech rep suggested. Thanks also to @M20Doc ! Hopefully, the ramblings of this madman (Me) will now cease...! Well are you gonna change it at all or just get new hoses at the correct length? Im interested to know if any of this fixes your oil temp issue! 1 Quote
Prior owner Posted July 17, 2020 Report Posted July 17, 2020 Everything is routed correctly, including having the oil cooler inlet hose connected to the lower end of the cooler. I am going to order new hoses and remove the fittings on the case to look for obstructions, then do a flow test from the case to the cooler with pressure pot. It’ll be a couple of weeks before hoses get here. 1 Quote
hammdo Posted July 18, 2020 Report Posted July 18, 2020 Got give you ‘props’ for finding the oil cooler et.al. was installed incorrectly... that is some deep sleuthing going on there... -Don 1 Quote
M20F Posted July 18, 2020 Report Posted July 18, 2020 On 5/17/2020 at 9:44 PM, Ragsf15e said: 1. What speed are you climbing at? I may have missed this sifting through 5 pages but didn’t see a clear answer. Power setting isn’t as relevant as climb speed. What are you climbing at and are you sure your airspeed indicator is reading correct? Quote
Prior owner Posted July 18, 2020 Report Posted July 18, 2020 Just now, M20F said: I may have missed this sifting through 5 pages but didn’t see a clear answer. Power setting isn’t as relevant as climb speed. What are you climbing at and are you sure your airspeed indicator is reading correct? Have not had a pitot static check done, but I will get it checked at some point. I do have the equipment at work as well... Aircraft does stall indicated within 2 mph of book stall speeds. I climb at 115 to 120 IAS mph. (And Yes, this did become a long, convoluted thread....) 1 Quote
M20F Posted July 18, 2020 Report Posted July 18, 2020 Just now, PilotCoyote said: Have not had a pitot static check done, but I will get it checked at some point. I do have the equipment at work as well... Aircraft does stall indicated within 2 mph of book stall speeds. I climb at 115 to 120 IAS mph. (And Yes, this did become a long, convoluted thread....) What I have noticed in mine is anything south of 120 gets hot fast. Especially when I flick the RayJay on. It doesn’t take very much time at say 110 (e.g. not paying attention) to heat it and then it isn’t going to come back down till I level. To me it is simple and cheap things first. Really focus on a 120-125 climb and see what happens. Pitch to 130 see what happens in a climb. These the oil temp gauge (you indicate you have conflict between Garwin and JPI). I have the relocated oil cooler in my F and just plugging some minor gaps in the baffling with RTV helped quite a bit. Good luck! Quote
ArtVandelay Posted July 18, 2020 Report Posted July 18, 2020 The Js oil cooler is a 2 pass type, don’t know if they’re all like that, I assume would be much more effective. Quote
Prior owner Posted July 18, 2020 Report Posted July 18, 2020 2 hours ago, M20F said: What I have noticed in mine is anything south of 120 gets hot fast. Especially when I flick the RayJay on. It doesn’t take very much time at say 110 (e.g. not paying attention) to heat it and then it isn’t going to come back down till I level. To me it is simple and cheap things first. Really focus on a 120-125 climb and see what happens. Pitch to 130 see what happens in a climb. These the oil temp gauge (you indicate you have conflict between Garwin and JPI). I have the relocated oil cooler in my F and just plugging some minor gaps in the baffling with RTV helped quite a bit. Good luck! Not me- There was another poster who was having issues with their JPI- I only have the Garwin, but it has checked against a handheld thermocouple device and is accurate. I do understand the relationship between airspeed and engine cooling, so yes, whenever I don’t need to climb in a hurry due to terrain, procedure, or a clearance, I Sometimes climb at higher air speeds. My issue is that even after leveling off, the oil temp remains high and never comes down. Unfortunately, there is no cooler relocation STC for M20 C’s....so we’re stuck with it in the front cowling. Wish I had a Ray Jay to flick on and climb at 130... Quote
M20F Posted July 18, 2020 Report Posted July 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, PilotCoyote said: Wish I had a Ray Jay to flick on and climb at 130... 120MPH and then slower (the actual STC I want to say says climb at 135, I find 120 works fine because I am a rebel). All the RayJay really does is give you what you have at 1000’ at FL190. The challenge is the air is much thinner so heat becomes a problem and you have to pitch down to cool down. 1 Quote
Prior owner Posted July 19, 2020 Report Posted July 19, 2020 3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said: The Js oil cooler is a 2 pass type, don’t know if they’re all like that, I assume would be much more effective. Not the C’s cooler... it’s very basic. 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 19, 2020 Report Posted July 19, 2020 17 hours ago, PilotCoyote said: Not the C’s cooler... it’s very basic. You’re now the Mooney rxpert in oil coolers... how is yours “sealed” along the bottom? Mine is wide open, I can see all the way back to the ground behind my open cowl flap. Is that right? Quote
Prior owner Posted July 19, 2020 Report Posted July 19, 2020 14 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: You’re now the Mooney rxpert in oil coolers... how is yours “sealed” along the bottom? Mine is wide open, I can see all the way back to the ground behind my open cowl flap. Is that right? I think that’s the way they were built. I sealed mine with silicone baffle material.. 1 1 Quote
Prior owner Posted July 19, 2020 Report Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) I have to wonder though- does sealing it really do anything to increase the flow through the fins....or are you just cutting off the flow at the top and the bottom of the cooler that normally would provide some airflow around the wells on each end of the cooler? I didn’t see any deduction in oil temps after sealing the cooler... Edited July 19, 2020 by PilotCoyote Quote
Guest Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 15 hours ago, PilotCoyote said: I have to wonder though- does sealing it really do anything to increase the flow through the fins....or are you just cutting off the flow at the top and the bottom of the cooler that normally would provide some airflow around the wells on each end of the cooler? I didn’t see any deduction in oil temps after sealing the cooler... I went looking through the IPC and can’t find a gasket, but I’ve seen many with a black foam type of seal at the top and bottom of the cooler. Sealing it would seem to make sense. Clarence Quote
Prior owner Posted August 2, 2020 Report Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) UPDATE: Installed new oil cooler hoses, new oil filter hoses- they are much better lengths and all went in with a large bend radius (No possibility of a kink). Spent an ungodly amount of time carefully running them so they would not chafe everything else (stainless outer wrap). Note to self: never order lines without fire sleeves, as the fire sleeve provides its own chafing protection. To review, I have replaced the Vernatherm and I recently removed the remote oil filter adapter housing to ensure that the Vernatherm poppet is seating correctly. A poorly modified gasket was found behind the adapter, which was only very slightly covering an oil passage. Oil cooler has been flushed with solvent backwards and forwards, and placed in a heated ultrasonic cleaner and then flushed again. Oil cooler was sealed all the way around at the front cowling. I am climbing at 120 mph. CHT’s are all below 345 F during the climb. None of this makes any difference, except the climb speed, which does delay the onset of elevated oil temps. After my last test flight, I took a Lasar thermometer and ran it slowly down each row that the oil flows through. There were variations, with one row reading 32 F lower than the highest temp row. I would think that variations are to be expected, since the cooler is simple in design, and the oil simply flows from one side to the other via whichever rows present the least resistance. It’s hard to know whether the temp difference between rows is of any great significance. What I don’t absolutely know for sure is when the oil cooler was replaced, and if it was brand spanking new when it went in. The prior owner said that he installed a new one, but that could mean anything. No log entry, and no receipts. The cooler is the only thing left. It is the Aero Classics Cooler specified for the C & D. During my earlier call to The Aero Classsics tech rep, he sounded as though he was not surprised I was having issues, and offered a higher efficiency cooler at $600. As I rolled my mistress back into the hangar, she let out a chuckle and said, “ come back when you’ve got more money!” Edited August 2, 2020 by PilotCoyote 1 Quote
Brian E. Posted August 2, 2020 Report Posted August 2, 2020 Sorry the results didn't pan out as expected. Let us know when you install the higher efficiency cooler and the results. 1 Quote
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