Another IO-360-A1A Case Crack...what next?

[Nukemzzz]

Ok...so to get something out of the way, I bought this plane without knowing much about it for personal reasons and I knew it was a risk.  So lets not talk about that.... lol

I've had some bad luck with this plane which I purchased in December '19.  It's a 66' M20E.  I've spent 100hrs of my own time working on it with oversight and assistance from my really good local A&P and IA after finding some things post buy and I've spent about $5,000 out of pocket so far.  I've been trying to keep it in the air because I'm working on my PPL with this plane and so far we've not had one trip where something didn't fail:

• Ferry flight from Florida to Indiana - Muffler popped...needed muffler and runners.
• Flap retract cable broke when I was getting good at making approaches on the first training flight
• Flaps wouldn't stay down during final on the next flight messing up my approaches

Yes, 3 flights since December because of all of the issues..and now....

This last weekend I was working on the flap pump and checking an oil leak that seemed to be more than normal.  Well, the oil leak turned out to be a case crack on top of cylinder #2.  Based on what I've read on the forums this isn't surprising...it is more or less expected.    Honestly I don't know that I've ever owned something as un-reliable as this plane, but I digress.

So... what to do about this engine? (80% of the value of the plane honestly)

A little history:

• 1998, right after an annual and some repairs the engine lost power on take off and the pilot seems to have made the impossible turn and landed gear up after making a suitable landing spot.  So: prop strike.
• 2005, they finally overhauled the engine and prop governor and got it back in the air with a new prop.
• Only two logbook entries (oil change and vacuum pump factory reman) between 2005-2007
• 2007 (56hrs after the 2005 rebuild), found metal in the screen because: cam failure and they overhauled it again.
  • Reconditioned case, camshaft, followers, prop governor, and nickle cylinders.  New hydraulic lifters, pistons, pins, and rings.
• It now has 300hrs on it since the 2007 overhaul.  The prior owner bought it in 2009 and flew most of that 300hrs but then the plane sat for 2yrs solid right before I bought it.

I have been worried that this engine would fail another camshaft and had plans to blackstone the oil each oil change to keep an eye on it...first one looked ok after 10hrs...I didn't expect a crack to stop that plan!

I think I have the following options:

1. Sell the plane as is, cut my losses that I won't recover.
   1. I'm not a quitter so this one is unlikely.  Only appealing thing to this is I could get a bigger, newer easier to fly, plane but for way more money.
2. Send the current engine to a rebuild shop and have the case sent to Tulsa to weld.  Inspect for other issues and fix as needed.  Mostly likely will need a cam and lifters.
   1. Cheapest option clearly
   2. Could have a crack on number 1 or fail the tappets again next year.
   3. Engine still has 300hrs on it...but that's pretty darn good.
   4. Lycoming tells me that they don't promote this because they can fail again but I see some folks on here that it has worked for.
   5. Lycoming tells me that repeated rebuilds risks case cracks and this would be one more.
   6. Guessing this would cost me about $10k
3. Find a used engine and try to sell or rebuild this one on the side.
   1. I have no reason to trust someone else engine more than mine
   2. If it's not running now then the cam is probably corroded and compromised
   3. Seems higher risk than #2 above but maybe a little cheaper.  I could end up with two broken engines easily.
   4. Guessing $6-8k
4. Install a Lycoming factory reman engine
   1. Would come with roller tappets and some piece of mind
   2. Hella expensive I think
   3. Guessing $25k after selling them my core back 
5. Install a non-factory overhauled engine
   1. Gets me in the air fastest maybe.  Is it better than overhauling my own though?
   2. Wouldn't come with roller tappets
   3. Guessing $16k for this option

Questions:

1. Does anyone have quotes for an A1A (with roller tappets) from Lycoming?  Roughly how much is the engine?  How much is my core worth?
2. Are my cost guesses about right?
3. What would you do in my situation?
4. I'm in Southern Indiana... can you recommend some good engine shops?

Bad timing on this...who knows if any of us will have jobs in 2021?  lol

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Nukemzzz

[Tim Jodice]

In addition to a roller cam a factory engine would have other benefits. If your engine is original it is likely is a narrow deck that Lycoming doesn't support. The cases are beefed up in week areas learned over the years. Most think that it would be crazy to put that much money in an old airplane but, if you keep it you likely will get many years of service out of it. I might be an exception but if I was looking for an E model I would pay a premium for for one with a factory roller cam engine instead of an ancient unsupported narrow deck engine.

[Nukemzzz]

1 minute ago, airtim said:

In addition to a roller cam a factory engine would have other benefits. If your engine is original it is likely is a narrow deck that Lycoming doesn't support. The cases are beefed up in week areas learned over the years. Most think that it would be crazy to put that much money in an old airplane but, if you keep it you likely will get many years of service out of it. I might be an exception but if I was looking for an E model I would pay a premium for for one with a factory roller cam engine instead of an ancient unsupported narrow deck engine.

Thanks for the input.  It's confirmed to be wide deck.  I was also thinking that with a factory roller tappet engine I might get some money back out of it when i sold the plane some day.  Probably not $25k worth though.

[gsxrpilot]

15 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

I'm in Southern Indiana... can you recommend some good engine shops?

Jewell - http://www.jewellaviation.com/default.htm

They even post their prices on their website. They are at the top of my list when my engine requires it. I've seen 5 or 6 engines that they have done, and people have no complaints.

[Tim Jodice]

I should add that when I say unsupported I mean Lycoming won't overhaul your narrow deck engine you would need to get rebuilt or new from Lycoming. I base this on an experience a year ago when a friend of mine that has a 1958 Travel Air that also had a cracked case on one side and both engines were overhauled in 1981 so he decided to put 2 factory rebuilt engines on it. He had a good experience with Lycoming. I forget the suffix but they are carbed 360s and they had them on the shelf shipped the same day.

[Nukemzzz]

Can someone clarify the language I'm seeing?  I'm seeing "rebuild" price listed higher than the "overhaul" price. What gives?

 

[Tim Jodice]

Rebuilt has to built to new limits. Overhaul CAN be built to service limits. Rebuilt typically come with more new parts. Good shops sell overhauled engines to new limits.

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Jewell - http://www.jewellaviation.com/default.htm

They even post their prices on their website. They are at the top of my list when my engine requires it. I've seen 5 or 6 engines that they have done, and people have no complaints.

Just do this ^

David can handle any scenario other than the factory reman. I had to get a new case on my A1A (see my engine saga thread) and he got me a good price... my crack was in an un-weldable area so my case never came back from Tulsa.  David used the DLC lifters in my engine so they should be much much harder and less prone to spauling than stock. 

[Tim Jodice]

What are DLC lifters?

[Stephen]

16 minutes ago, airtim said:

What are DLC lifters?

"Diamond - Like Coating" 

[Nukemzzz]

46 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Just do this ^

David can handle any scenario other than the factory reman. I had to get a new case on my A1A (see my engine saga thread) and he got me a good price... my crack was in an un-weldable area so my case never came back from Tulsa.  David used the DLC lifters in my engine so they should be much much harder and less prone to spauling than stock. 

I was just reading that they started DLC coating the lifters. Good to know. 

i think what I really need is an engine “repair”. Basically: fix the crack, look for bad parts, put it back together. Is that possible?  Is that Ill advised?

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

I was just reading that they started DLC coating the lifters. Good to know. 

i think what I really need is an engine “repair”. Basically: fix the crack, look for bad parts, put it back together. Is that possible?  Is that Ill advised?

Pull the engine and ship it to Jewell... if a "repair" can be done, David will do it. Otherwise, he can do what needs to be done.

[Stephen]

10 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

I was just reading that they started DLC coating the lifters. Good to know. 

i think what I really need is an engine “repair”. Basically: fix the crack, look for bad parts, put it back together. Is that possible?  Is that Ill advised?

Yes, David can handle all scenarios you mentioned except a factory "reman" .  But you were concerned with MX cost vs airplane value so that seems like a scenario you would want to avoid due to it being the most expensive option. 

[Tim Jodice]

16 minutes ago, Stephen said:

"Diamond - Like Coating" 

I have heard that for a Beechcraft Duke they (not sure who) make carbide lifters. Any correlation?

[Stephen]

No idea. I found the company that made some DLC stuff, but Lycoming may be OEM'ing it or making their own. I think David (Jewell) ordered the lifters for my rebuild from Lycoming. 

[carusoam]

Jewell is the next stop...

Many MSers have gone this route...

One MSer drove the engine out there in the back of his VW...

Early in ownership it is hard to see the future....

Later in life you can see how you won’t get back to flying for quite some time...

Cracks at the cylinder bolts happen... but by the time you take everything apart to get to it... you have done the work required to call it an OH...

Replace all the required parts with new and move on... cry once, get it over with...

Then pray something like this doesn’t happen again...

Somebody above us throws us challenges he knows we can handle... never throw in the towel.  
PP thoughts only, not a religious guy at all...  ???

Best regards,

-a-

[MATTS875]

Jewell is doing an overhaul on my engine now. Great people to work with.  

[Dream to fly]

If you love flying and owning vs renting is a must then get used to doing repairs. I was and in some areas still am in the same plane you are in. I bought my plane from a very dishonest person and got rooked buy several repair shops. I feel your pain From a three year ownership nightmare experience. THERE IS light at the end of the tunnel. When you finally get the plane reliable and safe there is no better feeling than driving up to the airport and walking to your own plane and taking off into the horizon. My suggestion is make the plane reliable and safe to fly and ignore the cost. Then add toys, paint, etc and do that over time. Once completed you will own a very economical to fly and fast plane that will be the envy of most pilots. The advice given so far is spot on send your engine out and let the experience of a reputable shop tell you if you can rebuild. If you can then do it if not then you buy the next option. Buying factory new is just one of many options. Just my half cent thought.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[MB65E]

Lycon Visalia says they have less/no issues now with the DCL lifters than on the roller tappet engines. The added cost of the roller engine is tough to justify now with a solid treatment process on the cam. I recently sent Lycon a 540. It’s my 5th engine I have sent them. They are still the best shop I have worked with. 
-Matt 

[Nukemzzz]

I think I'm going to follow the lead of my IA here.  His shop does a ton of work for the Civil Air Patrol and the local flights schools and he sends all of his engines to American Aircraft Engines and has a great relationship with him.  I don't know if they are more or less expensive than Jewell.  At the moment I just know that the guy that I trust most to get me through this recommends sending the engine to them.  Maybe we will just overhaul it and reset TSMO and call it a day if the case can be fixed.

Anyone use AAE before?

[Nukemzzz]

Update:  It’s not going to overhaul itself while in the plane. 

Im thinking of installing a superior case on the engine during the repair instead of welding this one and installing DLC lifters so those two things are no longer a concern...and then putting it back together as a repair. Apparently the age of the case (66’ original) means it could just crack somewhere else next year. I don’t want to spend $14k and then have to do it again.  I think a new case is about $4k?

Thoughts?

Edited April 25, 2020 by Nukemzzz

[gsxrpilot]

I'd turn that cowl over so it's not sitting on the paint.

[EricJ]

44 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

Update:  It’s not going to overhaul itself while in the plane. 

Im thinking of installing a superior case on the engine during the repair instead of welding this one and installing DLC lifters so those two things are no longer a concern...and then putting it back together as a repair. Apparently the age of the case (66’ original) means it could just crack somewhere else next year. I don’t want to spend $14k and then have to do it again.  I think a new case is about $4k?

Thoughts?

 

Sounds like a reasonable approach to me.
 

37 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd turn that cowl over so it's not sitting on the paint.

Some of us have airplanes with strategic weathering and we do that to try to keep it even for the best visual effects. 

[Nukemzzz]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd turn that cowl over so it's not sitting on the paint.

I’d be more worried about the paint if the nose of the plane hadn’t sat on an electric tug a couple years back when the nose gear collapsed (before I bought it). I.E. nobody will notice a new scratch. Lol

[corn_flake]

@Nukemzzz  How do you determine if your case is wide deck vs narrow deck?