Garmin GI275 Install in a 305 Rocket

[Austin305Rocket]

Brought my GoPro out to record the first flight in our 305 Rocket with a brand spankin' new pair of Garmin GI-275's. Videos of these things in the wild seem to be pretty tough to come by and I know a lot of folks are interested in these, so I thought I'd make one and share. Pretty impressed with these things...the screen is incredible! Perhaps the GFC500 AP is on the list at some point, but to be honest this thing works great with the stock Century 31. The 275's have a GPSS HDG emulation mode that works really well. I was able to fly coupled ILS and LPV approaches without a hitch. As a newly minted IFR pilot dumping the vacuum system and moving to glass sure gives me piece of mind. Well worth the upgrade. I recorded in 2.7k HD. I'm no editing pro - so apologies in advance.  

 

[carusoam]

Interesting details...

You were describing the VSI part of the screen... got distracted, then forgot what you were talking about... 

I couldn’t figure it out either and there was no other VSI in the plane to compare to...

Thanks for posting the video... looks like you have become pretty familiar with their operation already.

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

I just bought 2 of these. 
 

-Robert

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, Austin305Rocket said:

Brought my GoPro out to record the first flight in our 305 Rocket with a brand spankin' new pair of Garmin GI-275's. Videos of these things in the wild seem to be pretty tough to come by and I know a lot of folks are interested in these, so I thought I'd make one and share. Pretty impressed with these things...the screen is incredible! Perhaps the GFC500 AP is on the list at some point, but to be honest this thing works great with the stock Century 31. The 275's have a GPSS HDG emulation mode that works really well. I was able to fly coupled ILS and LPV approaches without a hitch. As a newly minted IFR pilot dumping the vacuum system and moving to glass sure gives me piece of mind. Well worth the upgrade. I recorded in 2.7k HD. I'm no editing pro - so apologies in advance.  

 

Thanks Austin for posting.  Can you say something about hours to install and how much this cost?

E

[Mark89114]

No standby AI?  Does the second HSI easily have a reversionary mode to an AI?

I thought my airspeed needles bounced a lot, I feel better now.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Mark89114 said:

No standby AI?  Does the second HSI easily have a reversionary mode to an AI?

I thought my airspeed needles bounced a lot, I feel better now.

Yes if the two stop communicating with each other the bottom goes into a mode where it shows everything including attitude. 

[Austin305Rocket]

Install cost was $18k - included both units.  Labor will run 40-50 hours, so your price may vary.  Central Texas Avionics out of KGTU (Georgetown, TX) did ours and they did a fantastic job.  They had some issues late in the install - mostly omissions in the Garmin provided install docs - so they were on the phone with Garmin quite a bit sorting some things out and delayed delivery.  But, couldn't be happier with the end result.  These are unbelievably capable for their size.

The primary ADI will fail to the secondary and you can also just make both of them ADI's if you want.  As I mention in the beginning of the video - there's a manual failover switch as well that you could use if for some reason the primary fails but doesn't failover.

The weirdest part for me was adjusting to no VSI.  I've flown about 500 hours in airplanes with no glass and a traditional VSI.  So, moving to this setup the VSI is a tiny box next to the altitude tape.  I'll get used to it.

Another 'nice to have' would be the ability to quickly switch from GPSS to HDG mode without having to get into the menus.  Our installers asked Garmin if there was a pin they could use to run a push button switch to the panel for a quick switch - but there wasn't.  It's all software so perhaps they come up with that at some point if enough people ask for it, but I'm not holding my breath.  Also would be nice since we have the OAT probe that provides TAS to show that on the display as well.

[Austin305Rocket]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Thanks for posting the video... looks like you have become pretty familiar with their operation already.

You're welcome.  We bought these a bit in the blind as there's not many folks that have had them installed yet and we couldn't find or talk to anyone that had a similar setup to see how they liked it.  Our shop was great and although it took a little longer than even they anticipated (it was their first install of these...), couldn't be happier with the results.

Flying them is pretty straightforward - just nice to have the peace of mind now that there's no vacuum pump to fail and that we don't have to get these things refurb'd every few years.  Our AI died a month and a half or so ago...right before I was going to head out to take the plane to finish my IFR.  We just decided to not throw good money after bad and we'd been talking about an upgrade anyway so the purchase and install cost / 4 Partner's was in our budget.  

We priced out the GFC500 - but that added another ~$25k to the install so we decided against that.  Our shop had a 210 in that was getting G5's and a GFC500 and it's some major surgery.  It was there before we got there and when I picked our up it was still there with a birds nest still sticking out of the panel.

[flyboy0681]

Very good presentation. I think the dancing around of the speed tape would drive me crazy. I found it interesting that there is no external GPSS/HDG button. I have an ICARUS SAM unit and the button which controls these two modes is prominently in front of me and digitally displays the mode it's in. I use it all the time to switch back and forth.

[Austin305Rocket]

49 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Very good presentation. I think the dancing around of the speed tape would drive me crazy. I found it interesting that there is no external GPSS/HDG button. I have an ICARUS SAM unit and the button which controls these two modes is prominently in front of me and digitally displays the mode it's in. I use it all the time to switch back and forth.

Yeah, a little suprised they didn't do that knowing full well that many of their customers are buying these for precisely that reason (using the AI to send attitude info to a legacy AP).  Our installer felt like it could be a relatively simple fix - just depends on if they decide to do it.  I've got a friend that works for Garmin Aviation in Olathe...I've reached out to him and  he confirmed that is the current capability - no word on if they'll do anything.  It is possible of course to use NAV mode on the autopilot and it'll be fine for enroute...just wont do the turns and holds like GPSS would do.

The only other kindof annoying them for me is that the dials are on the left side of the instruments.  We all fly left handed so it's a bit awkward to have to reach across the insturment to make the changes.  Would seem like it would make more sense to default the knobs on the right hand side with possibly an option to put them on either depending on how the customer wants them.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Austin305Rocket

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Austin305Rocket said:

Yeah, a little suprised they didn't do that knowing full well that many of their customers are buying these for precisely that reason (using the AI to send attitude info to a legacy AP).  Our installer felt like it could be a relatively simple fix - just depends on if they decide to do it.  I've got a friend that works for Garmin Aviation in Olathe...I'm going to reach out to him and see if he'll cough up any info - at the very least let him know how I feel about it.

The only other kindof annoying them for me is that the dials are on the left side of the instruments.  We all fly left handed so it's a bit awkward to have to reach across the insturment to make the changes.  Would seem like it would make more sense to default the knobs on the right hand side with possibly an option to put them on either depending on how the customer wants them.

I take it by your pressing the altitude hold on the A/P that the system doesn't have an altitude preselect capability

[Austin305Rocket]

2 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I take it by your pressing the altitude hold on the A/P that the system doesn't have an altitude preselect capability

Correct.  The 275 ADI gives you the ability to set an aural alert for altitude and also for minimums but it doesn't communicate with the AP.  So, have to press the ALT button on the AP to actually get it to stay there.  Obviously, if you were using these with a GFC500 for example,  you'd have all those extra bells and whistles.  It's another ~$25k to go that route (so ~40k total for the GFC and dual 275's) and we weren't quite ready for that yet so that was one of the primary drivers for the 275 as it can sent the attitude info to legacy AP's where the G5 cannot.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Austin305Rocket

[Mark89114]

The altitude pre-select is not a limitation of the GI-275, that is a limitation from the autopilot??  Just clarifying.

 

Are there two dials on the HSI portion, one to set course and one to set HDG?  That has been an industry standard since Orville and Wright, or at least every big boy airplane I have flown that has autopilot.  

 

[Austin305Rocket]

3 minutes ago, Mark89114 said:

The altitude pre-select is not a limitation of the GI-275, that is a limitation from the autopilot??  Just clarifying.

 

Are there two dials on the HSI portion, one to set course and one to set HDG?  That has been an industry standard since Orville and Wright, or at least every big boy airplane I have flown that has autopilot.  

 

Yup - inner and outer dial.  Pretty standard.  Outer dial sets heading.  There is no course course dial like the old HSI's.  If you watch the video you can see the 430 screen in the background a little.  When the next leg is activated you'll see the course automatically change on the 275.

No limitations on the 275.  We're using a probably 30 year old Century 31 AP.  Thanks to Garmin for making a unit this awesome and sending the attitude info to the AP so we could still use it.  Again, if you had a GFC500 hooked up the 275 you'd be in heaven.  Altitude pre-select...the works.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Austin305Rocket

[RobertGary1]

My shop is even attempting to integrate the 275 heading into my pathfinder electric autopilot from the 70’s. 
 

-Robert 

[Austin305Rocket]

7 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

My shop is even attempting to integrate the 275 heading into my pathfinder electric autopilot from the 70’s. 
 

-Robert 

If it's on their list, it'll work.  

Docs are here - including autopilot compat: https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?partNumber=010-GI275-00&tab=manuals

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Austin305Rocket said:

No limitations on the 275.  We're using a probably 30 year old Century 31 AP.  Thanks to Garmin for making a unit this awesome and sending the attitude info to the AP so we could still use it.  Again, if you had a GFC500 hooked up the 275 you'd be in heaven.  Altitude pre-select...the works.

Im pretty sure the 275 interface is similar to the gad43 vs the 43e that does have outputs for altitude preselect. 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Austin305Rocket said:

If it's on their list, it'll work.  

Docs are here - including autopilot compat: https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?partNumber=010-GI275-00&tab=manuals

It’s not but they’re working with Garmin to see if it will work.  
 

-Robert 

[McMooney]

was it 18k for just the gi275's and installation ?  really want these but that just seems extreme

[RobertGary1]

8 minutes ago, McMooney said:

was it 18k for just the gi275's and installation ?  really want these but that just seems extreme

It’s an intense job if it’s done right. Also need to wire up the magnetometer, it requires a gps source plus all the pilot static, autopilot, etc. on mine I’m also sending all my ads-b to it so I see traffic and weather on my HSI. 
-Robert 

[louisut]

3 hours ago, McMooney said:

was it 18k for just the gi275's and installation ?  really want these but that just seems extreme

It was 40-ish hours plus cost of parts (two GI 275s--one with ADAHRS, one with ADAHRS + AP, the GTP59 probe, and GMU11 magnetometer). Your cost may vary depending on the rates in your area.

Edited April 18, 2020 by louisut

[Greg_D]

12 hours ago, Austin305Rocket said:

Install cost was $18k - included both units.  Labor will run 40-50 hours, so your price may vary.  Central Texas Avionics out of KGTU (Georgetown, TX) did ours and they did a fantastic job.  They had some issues late in the install - mostly omissions in the Garmin provided install docs - so they were on the phone with Garmin quite a bit sorting some things out and delayed delivery.  But, couldn't be happier with the end result.  These are unbelievably capable for their size.

The primary ADI will fail to the secondary and you can also just make both of them ADI's if you want.  As I mention in the beginning of the video - there's a manual failover switch as well that you could use if for some reason the primary fails but doesn't failover.

The weirdest part for me was adjusting to no VSI.  I've flown about 500 hours in airplanes with no glass and a traditional VSI.  So, moving to this setup the VSI is a tiny box next to the altitude tape.  I'll get used to it.

Another 'nice to have' would be the ability to quickly switch from GPSS to HDG mode without having to get into the menus.  Our installers asked Garmin if there was a pin they could use to run a push button switch to the panel for a quick switch - but there wasn't.  It's all software so perhaps they come up with that at some point if enough people ask for it, but I'm not holding my breath.  Also would be nice since we have the OAT probe that provides TAS to show that on the display as well.

Do you have a breakdown on those costs?  The units themselves were what, $9K?  Was installation really an equal amount?  Oops, I see others beat me to the question, but I'd really like to know as well

Edited April 18, 2020 by Greg_D

[MIm20c]

6 hours ago, Greg_D said:

Do you have a breakdown on those costs?  The units themselves were what, $9K?  Was installation really an equal amount?  Oops, I see others beat me to the question, but I'd really like to know as well

The OP did mention that the increase in cost to install a $10k AP was an extra $25k so I think it’s safe to say the labor played a large role in the $18k cost above. 

[louisut]

10 hours ago, MIm20c said:

The OP did mention that the increase in cost to install a $10k AP was an extra $25k so I think it’s safe to say the labor played a large role in the $18k cost above. 

The pre-tax quote was $7.3k for the ADI and $8.7k for the HSI or $15k for both. The optional OAT sensor was $1k and synthetic vision another $1k. We opted out of the synthetic vision for now. After tax on the parts, $18k is in the ballpark.

Options considered were a 10" G3X + GI 275 for $28k or a 10" G500TXi + G5 for $41k. The G3X couldn't drive the Century but the G500 could with the GAD43b adapter, hence the GI with the G3X and the G5 with the G500. Engine monitoring would have been an extra $10k on both.

In retrospect, an extra $10k for a larger glass panel may have deserved extra consideration. However our original intent was to fix some funky behavior with the autopilot. While multiple signs pointed to a failing ADI, we thought it prudent to hold back a little in case the AP needed further service too.

Edited April 18, 2020 by louisut

[PTK]

On 4/17/2020 at 12:26 AM, Austin305Rocket said:

As a newly minted IFR pilot dumping the vacuum system and moving to glass sure gives me piece of mind.

On 4/17/2020 at 12:16 PM, RobertGary1 said:

Yes if the two stop communicating with each other the bottom goes into a mode where it shows everything including attitude. 

Thank you for your post Austin. Very nice to see these in action in a Mooney!

I have a question and it's the one major sticking point for me. I have in my panel perfectly functioning KI256, KCS55A and KFC150. So removing the vacuum is not my primary goal. What I want is simply an ADI that I can put right next to my 256 that would be a true and full backup. Not just a pretty horizon coming along for the ride. What I mean is in the event of a vacuum failure taking my primary off line, I want that back up to be ready and able to assume the full role of the primary. I want it to provide attitude reference to the KFC so it can continue on. I don’t want to be forced to also take the ap off line. There's no good reason that I’ve heard that one GI275 ADHRS+AP version cannot assume this role. And say I do go for two of them, as you did, there’s no good reason even then why the second GI275 cannot fully back up the primary by providing attitude reference to the ap! For a product touted as the 256 replacement and solution for legacy autopilots these are major shortcomings imo. I was excited when G introduced these but lost that excitement when they force us to buy 2 of them! My primary KI256 doesn't have that limitation and my electric HSI is just fine. I don’t need to replace it and don’t want to be forced to do so. There is an advantage to having a vacuum ADI and an electric HSI. All I want is to backup my 256...fully. If I decide down the road to replace the HSI and take out the KCS55A I want to cross that bridge if/when I get to it. Not forced to do so.