Any legal reason a USB charger has to be certified?

[ragedracer1977]

Why should I buy a $500 appareo charger when I can buy this for $50?

There isn't any requirement that I'm aware of for every part in a plane to have a TSO or be PMA. 

 I've seen many many car tape decks installed in airplanes.  

So, tell me why I can't install this in my panel.  But you can't just say no, you have to back it up.

[LANCECASPER]

The biggest reason I would say is potential for radio interference. Buying one that's not certified may work but it hasn't been tested for that.

[ragedracer1977]

5 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The biggest reason I would say is potential for radio interference. Buying one that's not certified may work but it hasn't been tested for that.

That might be true, but it's not relevant

[Cruiser]

Look in your logbook. On the first page is an entry that shows your plane by serial number to be a certified aircraft approved by the FAA.

Per FAA regulation, the aircraft must be maintained in the exact same certified status as it was when  first approved. This is done by minor or major alteration and annual inspections. 

The material you put in the aircraft must be approved by the FAA for aircraft use. Everything included screws, nuts and bolts are aircraft quality by manufacture. (PMA,  TSO)

the minor alterations to an airframe are approved by the A&P /IA person working on the plane with a logbook entry.

the major alterations are approved by STC.

 

it is as simple as that. 

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Looks good.  Go ahead — buy one, get an A&P to install it with a 337 and let us know how it goes.  

[ragedracer1977]

Just now, Cruiser said:

 

The material you put in the aircraft must be approved by the FAA for aircraft use. Everything included screws, nuts and bolts are aircraft quality by manufacture. (PMA,  TSO)

 

 

 

Except that's not true at all.  

[smwash02]

For permanently installed items, it is either a minor or major alteration that an A&P/IA needs to approve potentially requiring a 337.

It will be a less painful experience to get a USB flush mount extension like this and use the thumbscrew to tighten it. Use the cigarette lighter with something like this and call it a day.

If your A&P will allow it, you could buy an approved cigarette lighter, put it behind the panel and do the same thing. Shrink wrap the whole shebang and you'll be good to go all above board.

[ragedracer1977]

2 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Looks good.  Go ahead — buy one, get an A&P to install it with a 337 and let us know how it goes.  

Why would it need a 337? 

It doesn't seem to be a major modification. 

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.”

[Cruiser]

4 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Except that's not true at all.  

so you don't think there are any standards for the materials in your airplane ? 

[smwash02]

Just now, ragedracer1977 said:

Why would it need a 337? 

It doesn't seem to be a major modification. 

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.”

As an electrical engineer, I would argue it under 'other qualities affecting airworthiness'. I'd want to know about RFI, overload characteristics, operating temperature ranges, etc. With such close proximity to critical navigation equipment, these come into play.

And again, it's "permanently installed" which requires A&P approval.

[ragedracer1977]

2 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

so you don't think there are any standards for the materials in your airplane ? 

Sure.  Show me the PMA or TSO for a GE 4509 landing light.  Or the PMA for the leather on your seats.  

[ragedracer1977]

Just now, smwash02 said:

As an electrical engineer, I would argue it under 'other qualities affecting airworthiness'. I'd want to know about RFI, overload characteristics, operating temperature ranges, etc. With such close proximity to critical navigation equipment, these come into play.

And again, it's "permanently installed" which requires A&P approval.

Of course.  I'm not asking if I can do it myself.  

I'm just asking where is the "rule" that a USB power port (or even a cigarette lighter for that matter) be TSO or PMA

[RLCarter]

20 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

That might be true, but it's not relevant

I have a USB port in my truck that has so much "Noise" I cant use my hand held com radio, went through (tested) several adapters for the cigarette light in the plane for the same reason...knocked out the comms

[Cruiser]

5 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Sure.  Show me the PMA or TSO for a GE 4509 landing light.  Or the PMA for the leather on your seats.  

Materials used in part 23 aircraft interiors must meet the requirements of section 23.853, and the burn test requirements called out in part 23, appendix F.

If you have part numbers and they are the exact same part as was originally in the airplane when certified, you can replace the original. i.e. GE 4509

[ragedracer1977]

5 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

Materials used in part 23 aircraft interiors must meet the requirements of section 23.853, and the burn test requirements called out in part 23, appendix F.

If you have part numbers and they are the exact same part as was originally in the airplane when certified, you can replace the original. i.e. GE 4509

So you're saying TSO and PMA is not required.  Which is what I'm saying. 

I just want to know where the line is.  Is there somewhere, codified, that everything in an airplane has to be TSO or PMA; or is just institutional "knowledge" like shock cooling.

[smwash02]

11 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Of course.  I'm not asking if I can do it myself.  

I'm just asking where is the "rule" that a USB power port (or even a cigarette lighter for that matter) be TSO or PMA

PMA means that the part is as good as the OEM part. There is no OEM part in this equation. TSO means it meets the FAA mandated standards.

CFR 21.9 answers your question best. It says that if you're installing something on something type certificated, it needs FAA production approval.

If you get a 337 field approval, you can bypass this.

 

[Cruiser]

Just now, ragedracer1977 said:

So you're saying TSO and PMA is not required.  Which is what I'm saying. 

I just want to know where the line is.  Is there somewhere, codified, that everything in an airplane has to be TSO or PMA; or is just institutional "knowledge" like shock cooling.

everything that touches an airplane must be approved. 

You can start by downloaded a copy of AC 43.13, get a cup of coffee and start reading. 

TSO is a way to approve.

PMA is a way to manufacture

both of these still need to demonstrate material approval to FAA standards. 

hope that helps. 

[RobertGary1]

All you need is an a&p willing to sign it off as a minor mod.  
 

-Robert 

[N201MKTurbo]

26 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Sure.  Show me the PMA or TSO for a GE 4509 landing light.  Or the PMA for the leather on your seats.  

There are TSOs for the landing light. Besides, it was on the original parts list when certified. There are specific regs concerning upholstery.

Everything you install in your plane needs to be approved by the FAA. The approval can be in the form of the TCDS, STC, TSO for standard parts. Or a field approval. 

To install that, you need to figure out the correct wire size, add a fuse or breaker and do an ELA or update the current one if you have one.

Just get one that goes into the cigarette lighter.

[markgrue]

If your aircraft came with a cigarette lighter from the factory like mine did, simply plug one of the usb chargers from dollar general that cost 5.99 into it.  If it bothers your radios then try a different brand.  I use one all the time to power my tablet and phone.  It is perfectly legal if it is not permanently installed.

 

Mark

[1964-M20E]

If your IA will sign off on it install as a minor mod install it.  This a minor mod only.  After installation  make sure you don't have any interference with radios and move on.  If you experience interference try another brand or add a noise filter to the power lead to the USB port.  JMHO

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

That might be true, but it's not relevant

You're correct, it's only at the time that the interference caused by the untested part makes your nav or com radio unusable that it becomes relevant.

[EricJ]

Perusing the invoice for my panel overhaul from an FAA repair station, I see a lot of line items from Mouser, Newark Electronics, and O'Reilly Auto.   A number of permanently installed items in my airplane use batteries, supplied by such stalwart aviation legends as Energizer, Ever Ready, etc.   Many ACK ELTs run on D cell batteries sourced from the aviation aisle at Wal-Mart.  

As has been discussed here in the past, electrical parts are legendary for not really having strict requirements, including wire terminals, butt splices, light sockets, bulbs, etc., etc.  AC 20-62E says discrete electrical components may be used if "it is determined that they meet their published performance specifications and do not adversely affect the performance of the equipment or article into or onto which they are installed."  This is for part substitutions into existing equipment for repair purposes.   You're suggesting installation of a new gizmo as a minor modification since this does not meet the criteria of a major modification.  

I was noting that the 12V "Socket-Cigarette Lighter" that were installed by the repair station during my panel overhaul (4 of them) do not appear to have any PMA or TSO and were sourced from Deklin Technologies, who produce all kinds of things specifically for aircraft but who do not seem to have any PMA authorizations or TSOs on their equipment, at least not that they claim on their site or in their literature.  They don't seem to appear in the FAA PMA database, either.   Their AIU-900 autopilot interface does not appear to have any PMA or TSO or any other qualifications, nor do their GPS annunciators.   In their installation manuals they cite AC 20-62E Par 11a and say it is the installer's responsibility to determine airworthiness.

There does not seem to be a clearly defined line between the discrete and component parts defined in AC 20-62E 11b, the kits described in 11a of the same document, or even how big or complex a "kit" can be.   Clearly things not listed as examples in 11b, such as cable ends, connectors, etc., are typically not PMA/TSO/STC/TLC/XYZ or whatever, so it is not a comprehensive example list.   I think the part you're looking at falls in there somewhere, and whether it's a kit or a component or what it is may be debatable in itself.  Regardless, there appears to be a path to installation like what Deklin describes in their installation manuals for "kit" installations, i.e., your installer inspects and tests it and makes a determination.

USB is an industry standard, so maybe it's a standard part and can therefore be installed under AC 20-62E 4.f.

As usual I think the bottom line is that whatever your A&P and IA are comfortable with supercedes anybody else's opinion.

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by EricJ

[ragedracer1977]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

Perusing the invoice for my panel overhaul from an FAA repair station, I see a lot of line items from Mouser, Newark Electronics, and O'Reilly Auto.   A number of permanently installed items in my airplane use batteries, supplied by such stalwart aviation legends as Energizer, Ever Ready, etc.   Many ACK ELTs run on D cell batteries sourced from the aviation aisle at Wal-Mart.  

As has been discussed here in the past, electrical parts are legendary for not really having strict requirements, including wire terminals, butt splices, light sockets, bulbs, etc., etc.  AC 20-62E says discrete electrical components may be used if "it is determined that they meet their published performance specifications and do not adversely affect the performance of the equipment or article into or onto which they are installed."  This is for part substitutions into existing equipment for repair purposes.   You're suggesting installation of a new gizmo as a minor modification since this does not meet the criteria of a major modification.  

I was noting that the 12V "Socket-Cigarette Lighter" that were installed by the repair station during my panel overhaul (4 of them) do not appear to have any PMA or TSO and were sourced from Deklin Technologies, who produce all kinds of things specifically for aircraft but who do not seem to have any PMA authorizations or TSOs on their equipment, at least not that they claim on their site or in their literature.  They don't seem to appear in the FAA PMA database, either.   Their AIU-900 autopilot interface does not appear to have any PMA or TSO or any other qualifications, nor do their GPS annunciators.   In their installation manuals they cite AC 20-62E Par 11a and say it is the installer's responsibility to determine airworthiness.

There does not seem to be a clearly defined line between the discrete and component parts defined in AC 20-62E 11b, the kits described in 11a of the same document, or even how big or complex a "kit" can be.   Clearly things not listed as examples in 11b, such as cable ends, connectors, etc., are typically not PMA/TSO/STC/TLC/XYZ or whatever, so it is not a comprehensive example list.   I think the part you're looking at falls in there somewhere, and whether it's a kit or a component or what it is may be debatable in itself.  Regardless, there appears to be a path to 

USB is an industry standard, so maybe it's a standard part and can therefore be installed under AC 20-62E 4.f.

As usual I think the bottom line is that whatever your A&P and IA are comfortable with supercedes anybody else's opinion.

 

 

 

See, this is the kind of discussion I was looking for.  I'm not looking to be "right".  I just want to know the why.  

In my opinion, it's a "standard part", as defined here :https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/programs/sups/standard_parts/media/62fr9923.txt

I've always been one to not just follow the leader.  I want to know the "why's".  

as a kid, at church, all the Sunday School teachers called me "desert island kid".  Because I always wanted to know, if you were born on a desert island, your parents died, and you were never exposed to the Bible - would you go to heaven or hell when you died.  And why.

[Guest]

It’s just another version of an auxiliary power socket(cigar lighter). If properly installed and connected to the airplane electrical system through an appropriate fuse or circuit breaker I don’t see an issue.

Clarence