Heated prop and alcohol windshield

[FlyBoyM20J]

I'm just curious....has anyone added either a heated prop or alcohol windshield to an otherwise vanilla J?

I fly in the Northeast US a lot and sometimes I wish I had a FIKI plane with TKS and everything but I have also talked with pilots who have decades of flying in these conditions who prioritize windshield and prop above leading edges.

It seems like I could probably find a shop that has an STC for both of these mods but searching hasn't turned up anything.

Cliff

[StevenL757]

I grew up on the West coast, and have a fair amount of mountain flying experience, and am not sure why someone would "prioritize" one or more pieces of an anti- or de-ice system over other pieces.  In my opinion, it's all or nothing when it comes to icing, and even though I presently have "all" onboard, I still try to stay out of the stuff.

The CAV aerospace folks can talk to you about fitting a "J" with equipment.  You may have been there already, but this has some good info.  Choose the left option, as it has your airplane listed as a retrofit candidate.  Unfortunately, you cannot get a FiKi option fitted to a "J", but an inadvertent option might be a possibility.  Not sure what their appetite is (or any legalities) behind selling you pieces of a system, but you should call them and discuss your situation and options.  Not sure what your budget is for an inadvertent system, but be prepared for some 5-digit responses...and the first number doesn't begin with "1" or "2".  :-(

https://www.cav-systems.com/tks/retrofit/

[FlyBoyM20J]

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

I grew up on the West coast, and have a fair amount of mountain flying experience, and am not sure why someone would "prioritize" one or more pieces of an anti- or de-ice system over other pieces.  In my opinion, it's all or nothing when it comes to icing, and even though I presently have "all" onboard, I still try to stay out of the stuff.

The CAV aerospace folks can talk to you about fitting a "J" with equipment.  You may have been there already, but this has some good info.  Choose the left option, as it has your airplane listed as a retrofit candidate.  Unfortunately, you cannot get a FiKi option fitted to a "J", but an inadvertent option might be a possibility.  Not sure what their appetite is (or any legalities) behind selling you pieces of a system, but you should call them and discuss your situation and options.  Not sure what your budget is for an inadvertent system, but be prepared for some 5-digit responses...and the first number doesn't begin with "1" or "2".  :-(

https://www.cav-systems.com/tks/retrofit/

Thanks!

I hadn't been to CAV yet but I just filled out their info form...expecting a phone call soon.

The pilots who like heated props and windshield deicers would take a full TKS system anytime, I bet, but have been in planes with no TKS but some combination of the other elements.  The general feeling is that a lot of planes including an M20J will carry ice OK but the windshield will become opaque and losing prop power due to ice accretion is worrisome, to say the least.  I guess they are talking about descending to land through a layer and picking up some inadvertent ice that they don't really need to lose, but definitely want to be able to see.

I'm just interested in the options for equipping my plane for such inadvertent situations without going full-out for a TKS system since I'll never get FIKI for this plane anyway.  I don't intend to fly into known icing, just have some remedy in case I get some on approach or something.

At this point, just wishful thinking.  I'll probably just end up eventually buying a nice FIKI plane...

Cliff

[FlyBoyM20J]

Just got an email from CAV.  Sales guy didn't address my question about heated prop or alcohol windshield but he did tell me that the estimated cost of putting a full TKS system on an M20J is $66,000.

Yeah...no.

Cliff

[GeeBee]

That is because there is no halfway. You can get a heated prop from BFG, but a heated prop is not part of the CAV system. They use a TKS prop. You can't buy just a TKS prop or a TKS windshield from them. Their system is designed for full TKS and the plumbing and pumps reflect that. The windshield comes off the windshield pumps and the prop comes off the main system pumps. At that point, after you have installed all those pumps, the leading edges is chump change.

[FlyBoyM20J]

43 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

That is because there is no halfway. You can get a heated prop from BFG, but a heated prop is not part of the CAV system. They use a TKS prop. You can't buy just a TKS prop or a TKS windshield from them. Their system is designed for full TKS and the plumbing and pumps reflect that. The windshield comes off the windshield pumps and the prop comes off the main system pumps. At that point, after you have installed all those pumps, the leading edges is chump change.

That makes sense and I wasn't surprised at the response from CAV.  Just thought it was work asking.

So, if I understand you, I can get a heated prop from BFG (don't know the place).  And if I want to keep doing things half-way, is there another such place that will do a windshield sprayer?

I'm not necessarily going to do any of this but I know from talking with other pilots that planes used to have such components and no TKS at all.  Right now, I've got nothing on my J and it may well stay that way since I'm disinclined to fly into icing conditions.  But I can imagine a situation in which I might be obliged to land ahead of schedule and if I had some icing response equipment, I'm in an environment in which it might well be useful.

I'd like to know my options, basically, and I'm prepared to hear that it's TKS or nothing. 

Thanks!

Cliff

 

[exM20K]

@FlyBoyM20J my 231 had an electric prop.  Perhaps same is available for the 201.

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, FlyBoyM20J said:

That makes sense and I wasn't surprised at the response from CAV.  Just thought it was work asking.

So, if I understand you, I can get a heated prop from BFG (don't know the place).  And if I want to keep doing things half-way, is there another such place that will do a windshield sprayer?

I'm not necessarily going to do any of this but I know from talking with other pilots that planes used to have such components and no TKS at all.  Right now, I've got nothing on my J and it may well stay that way since I'm disinclined to fly into icing conditions.  But I can imagine a situation in which I might be obliged to land ahead of schedule and if I had some icing response equipment, I'm in an environment in which it might well be useful.

I'd like to know my options, basically, and I'm prepared to hear that it's TKS or nothing. 

Thanks!

Cliff

If I heard @GeeBee correctly, if you keep your “J”, it’s TKS or nothing.

Don’t half-ass this or mess with anything else having to do with ice protection simply because it could save you money.  Please.

I don’t want to read about you in the papers.

[larryb]

I found myself cancelling a number of trips because there “could” be ice. Basically any cloud in the sky when it was cold. So I sold my J and bought a FIKI Encore. I rarely use it but I sure like having it.

 

[FoxMike]

On lots of occasions you bump into a little ice, change altitudes and problem solved. On other occasions your need to let down for an approach and find your airframe icing up.  Handle the situation properly, again no problem.  Unfortunately, you sometimes find yourself in a cloud with copious amounts of ice and ATC cannot assign you another altitude right away.  When you get a new (higher) altitude you find climb is difficult maybe impossible with a load of ice.  Regardless of the deicing equipment on board it requires a knowledgable pilot to employ the equipment properly and know when things are not going well.  Landing an iced up airplane is another necessary skill that must be learned.  Lots of things need to be considered when ice flying and  equipment malfunctions really can run up the workload.  Lots of variables in ice flying.  So that is the problem what is the solution.

I have owned a T210 that was deiced and a Baron with boots, and alky windshield.  Both were adequate on most but not all occasions.  I now have a Bravo with FIKI.  The TKS helps a lot but you just don't turn it on and expect the ice to become a nonfactor.  When it is real messy I find the turbo to be a useful tool.  TKS fluid only lasts so long so you cannot sit in ice for long.  Most of the year I do not find any ice but I have to eat into the useful load of the Bravo to carry the equipment and during annuals you need to make sure the system is in proper repair. Boots require a lot of maintenance and I used to think it took more time to keep them in good repair than the time I actually used them. If you really are traveling on a schedule consider TKS.  I would suggest trading to a 231 with TKS.  

 

[carusoam]

So there I was...  Contemplating going half way...

Something broke my prop. So it was getting replaced... the extra amount of money to add electric heat wasn’t terrible...

But, it is far short of adding a full TKS or FIKI system...

 

What is nice about it... it may add a few minutes to your last flight... if all you need is a few minutes more...

The challenge of ice building on the prop...it gets too inefficient at providing power to fly a plane that has become to inefficient at providing lift....

Then ice sheds unevenly... and the pilot has a choice... shut down the power before it shakes loose from its mount.... or after...

 

So... If you are headed towards adding a full TKS system to your favorite forever-plane... starting with the prop is a great idea!

But, stick with one supplier... all TKS to get that FIKI approval thing...

 

My one recent icing experience was a tiny horn grew on the tip of the O’s spinner... and a bunch of ice on the leading edges...

Recent... a decade ago on its delivery flight to NJ...  

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

Well, unfortunately you can’t get a 231 with FIKI TKS.  There are a couple with inadvertent. Many have the hot prop though, which carusoam explained well, it gives you the choice of keeping the engine on the airframe.

Edited March 5, 2020 by jlunseth

[GeeBee]

You can talk to your local prop shop about getting a hot prop. They should have the product and the STC for it. 

As far as I know there is no STC for an alcohol windshield only. It is usually part of a TKS package. 

There is no FIKI with a hot prop for Mooney's, only inadvertent protection. To have FIKI you must have a TKS feed on the prop and even then it is only for the long bodies.

In reality in 30,000 hours of flying including daily runs to Lake Tahoe for 6 years I have yet to find icing that stuck to the windshield all the way to landing. Even on measly little single engine Cessna's. You can usually get enough defroster heat and enough temp rise down low to clear the windshield. 

A hot prop would be a good idea if you are a regular IFR traveler. At least you can keep thrust on it while you look for a way out which often times is a climb.

 

[ArtVandelay]

There is no FIKI with a hot prop for Mooney's, only inadvertent protection. To have FIKI you must have a TKS feed on the prop and even then it is only for the long bodies.

I thought the no FIKI restriction was because no dual batteries or dual TKS pumps or some other redundancy the long bodies have. In other words, the TKS functionality and effectiveness was identical.

[carusoam]

Tom,

expect the FIKI system comes with the prop slinger/TKS fluid... as part of the certified system...

So the electric prop is a good solution for de-icing... but it is not part of the FIKI system...

So... there isn’t the ability to mix and match different parts to a system...

Ultimately the FIKI systems are dual battery, dual pumps, and and a bunch of other items found on LBs...

So the airframe and all the components are STC driven...

Whoever wrote the STC wrote the rules...

With the price of entry... it is hard for anyone to write another STC and do testing to sell to existing owners...

The less than FIKI systems are still pretty good...

And an electric prop would buy more time than a non-deiced prop...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I thought the no FIKI restriction was because no dual batteries or dual TKS pumps or some other redundancy the long bodies have. In other words, the TKS functionality and effectiveness was identical.

Partly. I talked to the CAV folks, who are very nice and very helpful by the way. TKS FIKI requires the full panoply of items. Dual batteries, dual alternators, dual pumps, dual windshield pumps and a TKS prop system. If you had a hot prop they would remove it.

Now would an airplane with a TKS system without dual everything and a hot prop be just as effective? As long as everything works, most likely. I've flown a lot of very effective hot props. 

The reality is in one case you are looking for a "parachute" and in another you are looking to expand the legal dispatch envelope.

 

[alextstone]

Partly. I talked to the CAV folks, who are very nice and very helpful by the way. TKS FIKI requires the full panoply of items. Dual batteries, dual alternators, dual pumps, dual windshield pumps and a TKS prop system. If you had a hot prop they would remove it.
Now would an airplane with a TKS system without dual everything and a hot prop be just as effective? As long as everything works, most likely. I've flown a lot of very effective hot props. 
The reality is in one case you are looking for a "parachute" and in another you are looking to expand the legal dispatch envelope.
 

Oh my,@GeeBee! You used the word "parachute" on this forum!

I fly a FIKI Bravo. There are several good ones for sale on Controller right now in the $175k to $225k range. If you back out the cost of a new FIKI installation from these planes, it becomes clear that you are getting a lot of value for your dollar buying used.

In my case, I did have to invest in an overhauled pump and proportioning valve and the stall strips were all rebounded in the last year. It also took quite a bit of patient running of fluid through the system (about 15 gallons) to finally get all of the panels to week fluid properly.

I've had occasion to use the system due to icing encounters year round even though I live in the SE US, once over ATL at 17k feet in June. I could always fly lower altitudes but that's not my preference on most flights.



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[tmo]

FWIW some planes came with prop-only TKS systems (eg. Socata TB20/21).

I'm told that with singles the TKS fluid from the prop usually does a good job deicing the windshield.  With twins not so much, so you need either a heated one, or separate sprayers.

[FlyBoyM20J]

44 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Now would an airplane with a TKS system without dual everything and a hot prop be just as effective? As long as everything works, most likely. I've flown a lot of very effective hot props. 

The reality is in one case you are looking for a "parachute" and in another you are looking to expand the legal dispatch envelope.

This is well-said.  I guess I am considering adding a relatively inexpensive parachute to my present 201 (guess I shouldn't keep calling it a "J"?). 

I am not sure this is my "forever" plane, so the idea of putting a full TKS system that will never expand the legal dispatch envelope, but will probably be a decent and very expensive parachute, is not reasonable to me.

I am becoming convinced that I need to get a full FIKI plane in the long run.  But I will talk with my prop shop about a heated prop next time I have the occasion.  It seems like easy insurance and why wouldn't I purchase it, if so?

Cliff

[jlunseth]

Well, there are some things mixed up here.  It is correct that there is no such thing as TKS with a hot prop.  A hot prop is electrical warming boots on.the prop.  TKS uses a “slinger” system, tubes that squirt TKS fluid onto the prop. The TKS system uses boots with grooves to direct the flow of the deicing fluid out over the prop if I recall correctly, but they are not hot boots.  If you have TKS you can’t have hot boots, you have TKS boots.  One or the other. There is no STC that I know of for a hot windshield on a Mooney.  I had a friend who had one on a Malibu, but I don’t know of one for a Mooney.  It pretty much wrecks your aerodynamic shape, it is a second plate that goes on the outside of the windshield in front of the pilot.  

It is correct that certified FIKI TKS requires “dual everything.” The 231 does not have dual alternators or batteries, and TKS can be fitted to a 231 for north of 70k, but it is for flight into inadvertent icing only, not Flight Into Known Icing.  

Somewhere southeast of Des Moines at about 22k I flew for about ten seconds through the very top of a cloud.  The aircraft was slammed with ice, including the windshield.  There was not much in terms of buildup because the duration was so short, but it was clear ice, all over everywhere. If I had been in those conditions for minutes instead of seconds I hate to think what the outcome would have been.  I immediately diverted out of the conditions.  The defroster was no help.  I have also picked up ice during a summer descent that left pretty quickly as I got to lower altitudes, but again, the defroster was no help.  Don’t depend on your defroster for de-icing and don’t expect that if you get into icing, there can only be a little bit.  In a wringing wet cloud top you can get fire hosed.

Edited March 5, 2020 by jlunseth

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Now would an airplane with a TKS system without dual everything and a hot prop be just as effective? As long as everything works, most likely. I've flown a lot of very effective hot props. 

It is my understanding that FIKI requires a 24V system as well.  What I recall is that the 12V systems did not generate enough pressure for the required flow.  ...which is strange, because I recall also that my 231 has the same tank size and duration as my Acclaim.

In the mooney installations, I believe the panels and plumbing are the same FIKI or no.  This is not the case for all airframes: The "No Hazard" SR22 system is useless, with small panels, no vertical stab coverage, and tiny tanks.  All reports are that the FIKI SR22 systems function well.

I was very glad to have the No Hazard system in my 231, but it sure didn't cost $60,000.  In 1997 when I had it installed, i believe it was ~$17,000.  Maybe the Bureau of Labor Statistics can collaborate with the FAA and create an Aviation Price Index to track alongside the Consumer Price Index.

-dan

 

[ilovecornfields]

I met a couple of FAA accident investigators that strongly disagreed with the phrase “Mooneys carry ice well.” Be careful with that.

I bought a FIKI plane. One you go FIKI, you never go back...I do spent more time running it during the monthly tests than I do in actual icing, though.

[StevenL757]

2 hours ago, FlyBoyM20J said:

But I will talk with my prop shop about a heated prop next time I have the occasion.  It seems like easy insurance and why wouldn't I purchase it, if so?

(sigh)

Cliff - I say this with the utmost level of caring and respect, but why bother with this?  Money you spend on this now (again - likely not available on your airplane) is simply sunk cost.  If you continue to think of this as an "insurance policy", you're likely to be drawn into icing conditions as a result of your new-found capability; however, your airplane shouldn't be there.  Save the $$ and look for a Mooney that has, as a minimum, an inadvertent TKS system installed.

[FlyBoyM20J]

10 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

(sigh)

Cliff - I say this with the utmost level of caring and respect, but why bother with this?  Money you spend on this now (again - likely not available on your airplane) is simply sunk cost.  If you continue to think of this as an "insurance policy", you're likely to be drawn into icing conditions as a result of your new-found capability; however, your airplane shouldn't be there.  Save the $$ and look for a Mooney that has, as a minimum, an inadvertent TKS system installed.

I appreciate what you are saying and I take it at face value.  I am listening.

I believe there is an assumption here that I (or others in my position) would fall into classic moral hazard if given a little bit of perceived adverse icing remedy, and I can see how my asking about these non-TKS solutions might indicate a willingness to head into icing conditions.

I also see your point: if I do not intend to use a heated prop as a reason to venture into conditions with icing potential that I currently avoid, then the heated prop is not worth the money.

I will very likely do as you suggest.

Thanks for your help.

Cliff

[StevenL757]

We're all here to help...anytime.

Steve