Clock Requirements

[65eTurbo]

Hi all.  Since I don't really use it for.anything like timed holds or approaches anymore, I'm thinking about removing my davtron clock and using the hole for something else.  I'm assuming the timers in an attached gps or a timer app in an ipad serve the legal requirement for a timer or clock.  Am I thinking about this correctly?

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, 65eTurbo said:

Hi all.  Since I don't really use it for.anything like timed holds or approaches anymore, I'm thinking about removing my davtron clock and using the hole for something else.  I'm assuming the timers in an attached gps or a timer app in an ipad serve the legal requirement for a timer or clock.  Am I thinking about this correctly?

An app in the tablet does NOT meet the requirement.  If your GPS can display the TIME to the nearest second then that would.  While I can dig through the pages to find the time in our GTN, there is no easy way to get to it so I don't consider my GTN to meet the legal requirement.  I'm hoping I can convince somebody that counts that the clock on the NORSEE AV-20S works.

[donkaye, MCFI]

13 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

An app in the tablet does NOT meet the requirement.  If your GPS can display the TIME to the nearest second then that would.  While I can dig through the pages to find the time in our GTN, there is no easy way to get to it so I don't consider my GTN to meet the legal requirement.  I'm hoping I can convince somebody that counts that the clock on the NORSEE AV-20S works.

The GTN does permit placing a timer and clock in a couple of the data fields, but it doesn't provide hours minutes and seconds, so it wouldn't qualify.  Seconds are needed for holding patterns for old technology and clock for EFC times, so it doesn't look like that FAR requirement will be changing anytime soon.  (updated previous posting)

[PJClark]

timer on G3X touch works great...and it's the only "clock" I know of in my panel now.

[0TreeLemur]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

An app in the tablet does NOT meet the requirement.  If your GPS can display the TIME to the nearest second then that would.  While I can dig through the pages to find the time in our GTN, there is no easy way to get to it so I don't consider my GTN to meet the legal requirement.  I'm hoping I can convince somebody that counts that the clock on the NORSEE AV-20S works.

There are letters in pdf format from the FAA here and there online saying that they don't get too bent out of shape over the definition of a clock in a certified aircraft.  If it is permanently installed in the aircraft, displays time to the nearest second, and can be seen by the pilot, it is an acceptable clock.   The AV-20S does that.  I think it is an excellent timer, with the nice feature of having a backup AHRS attitude indicator.

[EricJ]

The Avidyne IFDs will display time to the second on the top of the main display, and also have some settable timer functions accessible through the menu.

[Bob - S50]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

I thought that putting the timer as one of the data fields would work, but when I tried it on the simulator it either doesn't work or there is a bug in the program.  I'll try it in the actual GTN.  If it works, then I think that would qualify because it is in plain view and could easily be set.

But a timer is not a clock. Pretty sure the regs say clock. We can display the time in a field on the map page but it doesn't include seconds.

[pwnel]

Yup, I went through this exercise looking for regs when my original mechanical clock was INOP and came to the conclusion that it's not legal for IFR flight (I have a 430W).  So I installed a Davtron.  Frankly I prefer a separate system like that - always found the timer on the G1000 to be somewhat obscure. 

[OR75]

I installed a MidCon MD93 clock / USB chargers

Looks good .... but I use the USB charger a lot more than the clock - clock is set for Zulu time      

[201Mooniac]

2 hours ago, pwnel said:

Yup, I went through this exercise looking for regs when my original mechanical clock was INOP and came to the conclusion that it's not legal for IFR flight (I have a 430W).  So I installed a Davtron.  Frankly I prefer a separate system like that - always found the timer on the G1000 to be somewhat obscure. 

I also have a Davtron M877 but I've been wondering if it meets the requirements as it doesn't display seconds, just the flashing colon between the hours and minutes.  I've been meaning to check if that meets the regs.  I was told by Garmin that the clocks on the GTNs and the GDUs do not meet the requirement.

Update: Checked with Davtron, they said it is a grey area and won't comment on whether they meet the requirement of not.

Edited January 23, 2020 by 201Mooniac
Update

[gsxrpilot]

As far as I'm concerned, the IFD540 qualifies. As @EricJ points out, you can specify a datablock to display hours/min/seconds permanently on the screen.

[PT20J]

Mooneyspace would be so much less fun if everyone just used Google

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2016/Nkugba - (2016) Legal Interpretation.pdf

Skip

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

Mooneyspace would be so much less fun if everyone just used Google

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2016/Nkugba - (2016) Legal Interpretation.pdf

Skip

Ahh yes, but “permanent display “?  Does that mean that something like the av-20s can’t be a clock because time is not displayed permanently- ie, no time shows on the ADI screen?  What about my gns430w... time is “permanently” buried 4 button clicks away.  

My head hurts.

Btw, I just paid $300 to have my mechanical windup clock mounted in the yoke refurbished, so I’m legal!

[McMooney]

SMH

[carusoam]

Rags,

Where did you send your clock?

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Rags,

Where did you send your clock?

Best regards,

-a-

I think I found the place on MS.  Waltham aircraft clocks in Ozark, AL.  I just looked, it was $212 for the “overhaul”.  Came back looking and working like new.

[Bob - S50]

11 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Ahh yes, but “permanent display “?  Does that mean that something like the av-20s can’t be a clock because time is not displayed permanently- ie, no time shows on the ADI screen?  What about my gns430w... time is “permanently” buried 4 button clicks away.  

My head hurts.

Btw, I just paid $300 to have my mechanical windup clock mounted in the yoke refurbished, so I’m legal!

I think we've been through this before.  Since it doesn't have to be a dedicated clock, I think something like the AV-20S might work but I still am not sure it that particular unit can be used for other reasons.

As a required piece of equipment for IFR flight, does the clock has to be TSO'd?  If so, the AV-20S won't work because it is NORSEE.  If the clock does not have to be TSO'd then I think the AV-20S would work just fine.

[JimB]

Not sure what TSO would apply to a clock. I don't believe the GT-50 is TSO'd but it sure seems you can install it. 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5282b286e4b01dd0edf58599/t/53425a22e4b099c54d4c4e0d/1396857378209/100S-13-31.pdf

https://www.davtron.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/FAA-installation-replacement-clock-Davtron-090310.pdf

[PT20J]

I think you are making this too hard To quote 21.601 

(1) A TSO issued by the FAA is a minimum performance standard for specified articles used on civil aircraft;

Part 91 specifies which equipment is required to meet specific TSOs. Examples are GPS navigators and transponders. There is no such regulatory requirement for a clock.

If you have anything mounted in your panel that will continuously display time in hours, minutes, and seconds, you’re good.

Skip
 

 

[Gagarin]

I had this watch for 20 years and never needed to replace the battery. It works with ambient light.

I set it with www.time.gov and found it to be very accurate.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Gagarin

[0TreeLemur]

8 hours ago, PT20J said:

I think you are making this too hard To quote 21.601 

(1) A TSO issued by the FAA is a minimum performance standard for specified articles used on civil aircraft;

Part 91 specifies which equipment is required to meet specific TSOs. Examples are GPS navigators and transponders. There is no such regulatory requirement for a clock.

If you have anything mounted in your panel that will continuously display time in hours, minutes, and seconds, you’re good.

Skip
 

 

Blessed brevity, it still exists!

[JimB]

21 hours ago, PT20J said:

I think you are making this too hard To quote 21.601 

(1) A TSO issued by the FAA is a minimum performance standard for specified articles used on civil aircraft;

Part 91 specifies which equipment is required to meet specific TSOs. Examples are GPS navigators and transponders. There is no such regulatory requirement for a clock.

If you have anything mounted in your panel that will continuously display time in hours, minutes, and seconds, you’re good.

Skip
 

 

There you go! 

[kortopates]

I had this watch for 20 years and never needed to replace the battery. It works with ambient light.
I set it with www.time.gov and found it to be very accurate.

I've had the Blue Angeles titanium version of this watch for years and it's awesome - but not a replacement for the panel IFR clock.
The watch is much more accurate though because it synchs nightly via radio to the gov time source and uses no battery - it's solar powered too.

Just recently to the high tech Garmin aviator watch which is very nice since it monitors my O2 and much more but it needs to charged frequently unlike my old citizen.


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[McMooney]

mount the watch permanently to the panel, should be good.

[amillet]

This is the factory installed clock in our 97 J. Clock only displays hour and minutes. Timer mode displays seconds. Is this not IFR legal?