Living dangerously... Nighttime T&G's

[gsxrpilot]

I'm wanting to get the Commercial and there are a few requirements that I haven't met yet. One of them is 10 night take off's and landings, using the traffic pattern, at a towered field, with an operating control tower, solo. A very specific requirement. And with over 1300 hours in the log book, I should be able to total them up. Nope, I could only come up with 6 Landings and 2 Take off's that qualify. I've almost always maintained night currency. But that's from years of being based at Smithville, TX (84R) no tower. And I was even at San Marcos for a short while, but the tower closes at 8pm every night. So most of the year you can't even get a night flight in while the tower's operational.

So with the winter storm having moved on to Kansas, and a clear, cold, early night here in Denver, it was time to go log the night activity. I did 10 take off's and the corresponding 10 landings, all in the pattern, all talking to the control tower. 5 of them were 30R with Right traffic and 5 were 30L with Left traffic. 

All but the last one were No Flap, Touch and Goes. The gear worked as expected and she rolled back to the hangar under her own power after the last one. 

Actually, No Flap T&G's are maybe cheating a bit. The proper trim position on landing is exactly where it should be for take off as well.

Next I need a VFR Day and VFR Night Cross country with a CFI on board. 2 hours or 100 miles. My brother and I plan to launch about 3am on Tuesday morning and slow fly our way across Kansas to get breakfast (Night). Then we'll fly home (Day)

The last one is a 300 mile cross country, solo, with three landings, one being at least 250 miles from the start. I've got 900+ hours of cross country time in the Mooney. But only one flight met this qualification. Thankfully, that's enough. The problem is that most of my long cross countries, have my wife along. The other problem is, in the Mooney, I can get from just about any A to any B in the country with only a single fuel stop. So I never make two stops. There is a long list of flights well over 1500 miles, but none of them with more than two landings. One fuel stop and the destination. But I did find one single flight in the log book that qualified. It was a flight to Burning Man. I was solo. The plan was to go Austin to Vegas to Napa. But I had a last minute work conference call that popped up. So I landed in Burnett, TX to take the call. That gave me the extra stop. 

It's been a fun exercise going back through the log book reliving many of the flights.

[MooneyMitch]

Congratulations on your efforts and your eventual success! 

Yes, reliving through our flight logs is so interesting and fun too! 

I’ve always made historical notes in my logs for most of my flights, beginning in the early 70’s....... my flying career (and life experiences associated with such).

It’s so great to reminisce! 

[RLCarter]

getting ready for my 300 miler, headed to Llano for BBQ (KTXW ~ KAQO).... I'll do T&G's in the 172, the Mooney I just taxi back. 

[Yetti]

Not possible to survive T&G in a Mooney. OMG no flap landing.  Glad you survived.  Better that the plane survived.  Buy a lottery ticket.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Yetti

[Ibra]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

The last one is a 300 mile cross country, solo, with three landings, one being at least 250 miles from the start

I was always puzzled with the need for this to be 1SOB and not with PAX, making sure you have the mental strength to work in commercial aviation ?

Well done for night T&Gs, yes those NO flaps night landings with some power is cheating but you need a long runway to afford it, but at least you are not doing gym push ups of the rudder with one leg and the stick with two hands !

All other form of night landings will involve a loud bang (I guess ears gets very sensitive in dark nights or over extended water ) 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Ibra

[201er]

In my young and stupid days, before the wisdom of mooneyspace, I did 10x night touch and gos and Trenton airport at night with full flaps  

Also I flew to Hyannis with Byron and had to feed him loads of lobsters for a night cross country sign off. The only thing I learned from that flight is that it’s good to have instructor friends from Mooneyspace.

[marcusku]

Nice work!  I'm working on my commercial as well.  Overall learning the additional bookwork and maneuvers has been a good exercise.  I'll be happy when the check ride is done though.  

[steingar]

On the other side of things, I did a few landings on Christmas.  Why not just do T&Gs?  Part of the answer is I wasn't in that big a rush, it was Christmas and I did want something fun to do.  But the other part of this was to me, a series of T&G's is somewhat distinct from a series of landings.  When I come in to to land the aircraft I have to slow down, deploy the gear and do lots of other things.  The flow for T&Gs, for me at least is quite different.

Now if I had to do ten landings? Yeah, I might, but I'd rather settle between a few airports just to break up the routine.  Lots of T&Gs get boring fast. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by steingar

[bob865]

12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

All but the last one were No Flap, Touch and Goes

I thought for night currency, they had to be full stop?  I'm pretty sure touch and go's don't count after dark for currency, they have to be stop and go's.  Is the commecial requirement different?

[eman1200]

3 minutes ago, bob865 said:

I thought for night currency, they had to be full stop?  I'm pretty sure touch and go's don't count after dark for currency, they have to be stop and go's.  Is the commecial requirement different?

from what I'm seeing:

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

doesn't say anything about what type of landing it needs to be...….

[eman1200]

12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

All but the last one were No Flap, Touch and Goes. The gear worked as expected and she rolled back to the hangar under her own power after the last one. 

[ArtVandelay]

12 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

from what I'm seeing:
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
doesn't say anything about what type of landing it needs to be...….

Wrong section, you’re quoting requirements to get PP certificate, check 61.57 (b) (1)


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

18 minutes ago, bob865 said:

I thought for night currency, they had to be full stop?  I'm pretty sure touch and go's don't count after dark for currency, they have to be stop and go's.  Is the commecial requirement different?

You are correct for night currency. But this was not for night currency, just the commercial flight experience requirement. I double checked with a local flight school before I went out to do this, just to be sure.

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Wrong section, you’re quoting requirements to get PP certificate, check 61.57 (b) (1)

14 CFR § 61.129 - Aeronautical experience

This basically says the same thing.

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine  airplane or 10 hours of  flight time performing the duties of  pilot in command in a single engine  airplane with an  authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the  flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under § 61.127(b)(1) that include - 

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and 

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an  airport with an operating control tower.

[eman1200]

4 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Wrong section, you’re quoting requirements to get PP certificate, check 61.57 (b) (1)


Tom

I disagree.  you are looking at flight currency, he is going for a rating.  

Requirements to Obtain a Commercial Pilot Certificate

1. Be able to read, write, and converse fluently in English.
2. Be at least 18 years of age.
3. Hold at least a current third-class FAA medical certificate. Later, if your flying requires a commercial pilot certificate, you must hold a second-class medical certificate.
4. Hold an instrument rating. A commercial pilot is presumed to have an instrument rating. If not, his/her commercial pilot certificate will be endorsed with a prohibition against carrying passengers for hire on day VFR flights beyond 50 NM or at night.
5. Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or complete a home-study course such as the Gleim Commercial Pilot Kit.
6. Pass a knowledge test with a score of 70% or better. The commercial pilot knowledge test consists of 100 multiple-choice questions selected from the airplane-related questions in the FAA’s commercial pilot test bank.
7. Accumulate appropriate flight experience and instruction (see 14 CFR 61.129). A total of 250 hours of flight time is required. Time requirements may be reduced to 190 hours if training at an FAA-Approved part 141 flight school.
8. Successfully complete a practical (flight) test, which will be given as a final exam by an FAA inspector or designated pilot examiner; it will be conducted as specified in the FAA’s Commercial Pilot Practical Test Standards.

=========================================

 

FAR/AIM > Federal Aviation Regulations > PART 61—CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS > Subpart F—Commercial Pilots > § 61.129 – Aeronautical experience.

§ 61.129 – Aeronautical experience.

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-101, 62 FR 16892, Apr. 8, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62 FR 40904, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61-104, 63 FR 20288, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61-124, 74 FR 42558, Aug. 21, 2009; Amdt. 61-124A, 74 FR 53645, Oct. 20, 2009; Amdt. 61-142, 83 FR 30278, June 27, 2018]

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—

(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a single engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in a complex airplane, a turbine-powered airplane, or a technically advanced airplane (TAA) that meets the requirements of paragraph (j) of this section, or any combination thereof. The airplane must be appropriate to land or sea for the rating sought;

(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under § 61.127(b)(1) that include—

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

 

[Browncbr1]

13 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm wanting to get the Commercial and there are a few requirements that I haven't met yet. One of them is 10 night take off's and landings, using the traffic pattern, at a towered field, with an operating control tower, solo. A very specific requirement. And with over 1300 hours in the log book, I should be able to total them up. Nope, I could only come up with 6 Landings and 2 Take off's that qualify. I've almost always maintained night currency. But that's from years of being based at Smithville, TX (84R) no tower. And I was even at San Marcos for a short while, but the tower closes at 8pm every night. So most of the year you can't even get a night flight in while the tower's operational.

So with the winter storm having moved on to Kansas, and a clear, cold, early night here in Denver, it was time to go log the night activity. I did 10 take off's and the corresponding 10 landings, all in the pattern, all talking to the control tower. 5 of them were 30R with Right traffic and 5 were 30L with Left traffic. 

All but the last one were No Flap, Touch and Goes. The gear worked as expected and she rolled back to the hangar under her own power after the last one. 

Actually, No Flap T&G's are maybe cheating a bit. The proper trim position on landing is exactly where it should be for take off as well.

Next I need a VFR Day and VFR Night Cross country with a CFI on board. 2 hours or 100 miles. My brother and I plan to launch about 3am on Tuesday morning and slow fly our way across Kansas to get breakfast (Night). Then we'll fly home (Day)

The last one is a 300 mile cross country, solo, with three landings, one being at least 250 miles from the start. I've got 900+ hours of cross country time in the Mooney. But only one flight met this qualification. Thankfully, that's enough. The problem is that most of my long cross countries, have my wife along. The other problem is, in the Mooney, I can get from just about any A to any B in the country with only a single fuel stop. So I never make two stops. There is a long list of flights well over 1500 miles, but none of them with more than two landings. One fuel stop and the destination. But I did find one single flight in the log book that qualified. It was a flight to Burning Man. I was solo. The plan was to go Austin to Vegas to Napa. But I had a last minute work conference call that popped up. So I landed in Burnett, TX to take the call. That gave me the extra stop. 

It's been a fun exercise going back through the log book reliving many of the flights.

When I got my commercial, they had just rewritten a key requirement to include the operative word “or” so as to use solo or with cfi iirc...   that saved me a bunch of money.  

Atleast you were able to do the night time operations over flat land.   That one day 250/300nm two stop solo trip is a stupid requirement.  Glad you already had it.  I had to waste money and time by doing that for no other reason.  

Edited December 30, 2019 by Browncbr1

[bob865]

Oops.  Didn't mean to start a reg battle.  Was just checking to make sure Paul hadn't made a mistake and his landing counted toward his rating as he expected.  He checked.  He's good. 

[ArtVandelay]

He has as 1300 hours, I assume he would already have the requisite flights required, and he was just getting current? I don’t understand why you would have to do it again unless it was a dual flight?

 I’m a PP only, so not up on commercial specific requirements.

 

Tom

 

 

[eman1200]

13 minutes ago, bob865 said:

Oops.  Didn't mean to start a reg battle. 

eh, not really battling, we're just trying to get it right.  and since I'm going to be working on my commercial, I want to make sure I'M doing it right.

what I don't understand is where the commercial maneuvers come into play.  nowhere in those regs does it say anything about the standard comm maneuvers we have to do.

[gsxrpilot]

8 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

He has as 1300 hours, I assume he would already have the requisite flights required, and he was just getting current? I don’t understand why you would have to do it again unless it was a dual flight?

You would think, right!

But the conditions were too specific...

• Solo or with CFI (usually my wife is with me)
• 10 take offs (I usually take off in the daytime and land after dark on a typical trip)
• 10 landings (got those but not all qualify)
• VFR (some of mine were IFR so didn't count)
• Traffic Pattern (even most of my VFR nighttime landings were via an instrument approach. It's just easier to dial up the ILS when landing at an unfamiliar field after dark)
• Operating control tower (My home field until I recently moved to Denver, is uncontrolled. So none of my night work there for currency counted. And I was at KHYI for a little over a year, but the control tower closes at 8pm so it's almost never operational after dark)
• 5 hours (often times arriving after dark, only the last .2 hours count as night)

Out of 1300 hours I found 2 takeoffs and 6 landings for a total of 4.2 hours that qualified. I was surprised myself that I couldn't find the required experience already in my log book.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, eman1200 said:

eh, not really battling, we're just trying to get it right.  and since I'm going to be working on my commercial, I want to make sure I'M doing it right.

what I don't understand is where the commercial maneuvers come into play.  nowhere in those regs does it say anything about the standard comm maneuvers we have to do.

Those just have to be done on the CheckRide.

[gsxrpilot]

Check the PTS for the Commercial. They're in there.

FAA-S-8081-12C

[eman1200]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Those just have to be done on the CheckRide.

right but I would have expected them to be listed somewhere in the requirements, something like "instruction in comm maneuvers 1, 2 and 3..."

[Jerry 5TJ]

FAR 61.51 (d) does seem clearly to define “solo” as meaning no other person in the plane.  
 

I suppose the FAA wanted Commercial Pilot candidates to successfully fly a cross country.  So, no bringing along a friend to help find the “direct to” button.  

[skydvrboy]

Insurance required 10 hrs dual and 10 hrs solo before carrying passengers, so I knocked out most of my commercial requirements during those 20 hours.