Surefly ignition

[J0nathan225]

Picking up my newly equip'd E this Sunday, give me till ~June for a 100hr report. Will report on my flight from KMRN to KEDN shortly though.

[Browncbr1]

I had the surefly installed on Wednesday.  It replaced the left slick mag that was at 500hrs.  The install took twice as long as it should have because the cog that was on my mag only has one woodruff slot.  In the install manual, it notes  that the cog has two woodruff slots, 180 degrees from each other.   This allows for fine adjustment of were engine and mag TDC is timed.    It was never a problem with slicks because they can be twisted more than enough, but the bolt hole flange on the surefly doesn’t allow enough adjustment without being able to turn the cog 180.   They should have designed the flange with just a little more range of bolt hole movement.   It’s a very disappointing design failure.  The result is that the mag can only be installed with either ~2 degrees advance or ~2 degrees retard.   This is the closest you can get to 25BTDC timing if you have the cog like mine.   The bolt flange holes are at the extent of their adjustment.   So, mine is currently installed ~23btdc, which, to me is a noticeable performance difference on take off and climb from 25.    Once you get to about 7000ft, you can feel advancing starting to gradually come in with results in slight vibration and increased oil temp.   This is still very rich target egt climb.    Currently, the surefly harness is going to the bottom plugs on 1&3 and top on 2&4.   I’m thinking switching so it goes to bottom plugs on 2&4 might help keep things a little smoother, as the injector shoots right on the plug on all cylinders.   Plugs gapped at .016, as surefly now says FAA makes them say that for certified installs.  The Mickey Mouse rubber hose they include for the MAP connection is a joke and honestly embarrassing to the company, when everything else appears complete and good quality.  Seems like an after thought bandaid.

I only flew once so far after install, so jury is still out.  I climbed to 9000 and cruised at peak and then cruised at 10000 at peak.   I don’t think it was any smoother than my perfectly timed slicks (maybe less smooth), but definitely hotter.   Cowl flaps almost half open and still 208dF.  (Usually 195dF, with cowl cracked). Chts all 10-15dF hotter than before, but still acceptable and it will work out better in the winter, as my engine has always run very cool at peak.    Flight condition was very hot and near standard pressure.   I might have gained a ktas or two, but it was too difficult to tell, as I was often in sink or lift due to the mountains and weather.  

My strike finder has a new area of phantom strikes straight ahead and left about 10-20 degrees.    

Ground operations are drastically improved, very smooth, but I didn’t buy a plane to drive around on the ground.

Im going to keep my slick on the shelf for a while until I’m convinced on this EI.  

[Culver LFA]

@Browncbr1 the Surefly is timed at TDC and the ignition timing set with the dip switches inside the unit.

[carusoam]

There was a report of difficulty during install for various mags... because a part was different than expected...

So... for a few bucks more, swapping out the errant part is a possibility...

The electronic mags guys are just finding out how many different versions of mags are really out in the field.... 

I think Rob @takair may have detailed what he had to do to get the mag up to speed for proper installation...

Being off a few degrees isn’t going to make anyone happy...

I think I remember the Woodruff issue... and not the Parker one... 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

16 minutes ago, Culver LFA said:

@Browncbr1 the Surefly is timed at TDC and the ignition timing set with the dip switches inside the unit.

I know..   I didn’t want to confuse anyone with getting into the nitty gritty of install.   In other words, we could only time the surefly sim to either ~2BTDC or ~2ATDC.  We couldn’t get exactly 0BTDC.   So it’s roughly 2degrees retarded from spec currently, with dip switches set for 25BTDC with advancing, so ground timing is about 23btdc and advances from there.  

[47U]

Just another fraction of travel would have gotten me to TDC on my O-360... it was so close that if I tightened the bottom nut first, the LED was on.  When I tightened the top nut, the light went out.  I figured I was 1.5 or 1.6 degrees after TDC.  I talked to SureFly and they said they were considering additional travel.  I’ve not experienced any problems, otherwise.  I was going to research getting another mag drive gear with the keyway indexed differently, but since I’m happy not having any problems, I shelved it for now.

I also agree the manifold pressure hose is sub par.  I made up a hose with #2 fittings and T’d it into my firewall bulkhead passthrough.  I’m running the SureFly on the bottom plugs, all around.

tom

[Browncbr1]

11 minutes ago, 47U said:

Just another fraction of travel would have gotten me to TDC on my O-360... it was so close that if I tightened the bottom nut first, the LED was on.  When I tightened the top nut, the light went out.  I figured I was 1.5 or 1.6 degrees after TDC.  I talked to SureFly and they said they were considering additional travel.  I’ve not experienced any problems, otherwise.  I was going to research getting another mag drive gear with the keyway indexed differently, but since I’m happy not having any problems, I shelved it for now.

I also agree the manifold pressure hose is sub par.  I made up a hose with #2 fittings and T’d it into my firewall bulkhead passthrough.  I’m running the SureFly on the bottom plugs, all around.

tom

Yea, I talked to surefly on the phone and they said it’s a known issue that they are working to remedy.   Either by adding a second woodruff slot on their shaft or by adding more bolt hole travel.   They offered to swap my cog for a two slot cog, but they don’t have any on the shelf, as all the other customers who had this problem already gathered them.  I’m apprehensive about putting a new cog in that hasn’t worn with the drive gear even if it’s non load carrying.  They put me on a list to contact once they have a solution available.  A new cog is $225...I’ll let it ride until surefly can fix it instead of me.  

[takair]

I may have been one of the first to run into this. SureFly worked with me and even sent a new unit to see if it was a clocking issue at assembly.  We finally figured out the gear issue and they sent the newer version of the gear and it was all resolved.  Regarding the break in of the gear, they are well oiled and likely not a major concern.  I think the new gear is the path of least resistance.  Regarding the MAP hose, there are a couple of threads with images of various ways to accommodate it.  I can appreciate the frustration, but at the same time it can’t be easy to design a system to adapt to over 60 years worth of aircraft of varying manufacture and configuration.  I’ve been rather happy with mine after the initial installation issues.  Cold starts are near automobile like, hot starts are more consistent.

[takair]

Tab 8 of this thread has some more info on the gear for those experiencing this.  https://mooneyspace.com/topic/28136-surefly-certified/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-493491

 

[ArtVandelay]

How come these issues were found before, I thought Sureflys been used in experimentals for awhile?

[takair]

Just now, ArtVandelay said:

How come these issues were found before, I thought Sureflys been used in experimentals for awhile?

I think many of the old gears are out of service (Lycoming hasn’t made them in ages), so it would have to be an engine with the old gear and some bad luck in the clocking....tolerance stack up I suppose.  Many experimental have new or newer engines.

[Browncbr1]

My engine was majored in 1998, but I’d have to research if that gear was replaced or not.  

[hammdo]

Hum, I’m looking to install a SureFly in the near future. 

@Sabremech heads up ;o)

-Don

[McMooney]

17 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Hum, I’m looking to install a SureFly in the near future. 

@Sabremech heads up ;o)

-Don

Just do it, had mine for a year now and will never go back. starts hot, starts cold, runs like a clock 

[hammdo]

Oh, I am, David is going to install it before I bring it home ;o)... Left side —-

-Don

[rbridges]

14 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

My engine was majored in 1998, but I’d have to research if that gear was replaced or not.  

Same here  my engine is '65 but majored in '98, also. 

[bob865]

I'm in the process of installing the Surefly right now.  WE just overhauled the engine and installing it during the engine install to try to make it easier.  But my mechanic spent hours yesterday trying to get it to install and couldn't get it.  He mentioned what you guys said above that the slick gear only has the one keyway and doesn't let you turn it around.  He had mentioned we may have to get a Bendix gear that has two keyways.  Have you guys found a solution for this?

[47U]

My Bendix gear had a single keyway, but my understanding is that there’s an alternate pn magneto drive gear with the keyway indexed 180 degrees out, i.e., the keyway is in between two of the gear’s teeth, as opposed to aligned with a gear tooth.  

How far are you out?  The closest I got was 1.5 degrees after TDC, and it runs great.  I talked to SureFly about it and they said it would be fine.  Eventually, I’ll scrounge up the proper gear so I can get the timing dialed in to 0 degrees TDC.

tom

[takair]

4 hours ago, bob865 said:

I'm in the process of installing the Surefly right now.  WE just overhauled the engine and installing it during the engine install to try to make it easier.  But my mechanic spent hours yesterday trying to get it to install and couldn't get it.  He mentioned what you guys said above that the slick gear only has the one keyway and doesn't let you turn it around.  He had mentioned we may have to get a Bendix gear that has two keyways.  Have you guys found a solution for this?

See the thread that is linked a few posts up...

[Jim Peace]

seems like it just easier to have standard mags and press on............

[Yetti]

On 7/10/2020 at 2:24 PM, Browncbr1 said:

I had the surefly installed on Wednesday.  It replaced the left slick mag that was at 500hrs.  The install took twice as long as it should have because the cog that was on my mag only has one woodruff slot.  In the install manual, it notes  that the cog has two woodruff slots, 180 degrees from each other.   This allows for fine adjustment of were engine and mag TDC is timed.    It was never a problem with slicks because they can be twisted more than enough, but the bolt hole flange on the surefly doesn’t allow enough adjustment without being able to turn the cog 180.   They should have designed the flange with just a little more range of bolt hole movement.   It’s a very disappointing design failure.  The result is that the mag can only be installed with either ~2 degrees advance or ~2 degrees retard.   This is the closest you can get to 25BTDC timing if you have the cog like mine.   The bolt flange holes are at the extent of their adjustment.   So, mine is currently installed ~23btdc, which, to me is a noticeable performance difference on take off and climb from 25.    Once you get to about 7000ft, you can feel advancing starting to gradually come in with results in slight vibration and increased oil temp.   This is still very rich target egt climb.    Currently, the surefly harness is going to the bottom plugs on 1&3 and top on 2&4.   I’m thinking switching so it goes to bottom plugs on 2&4 might help keep things a little smoother, as the injector shoots right on the plug on all cylinders.   Plugs gapped at .016, as surefly now says FAA makes them say that for certified installs.  The Mickey Mouse rubber hose they include for the MAP connection is a joke and honestly embarrassing to the company, when everything else appears complete and good quality.  Seems like an after thought bandaid.

I only flew once so far after install, so jury is still out.  I climbed to 9000 and cruised at peak and then cruised at 10000 at peak.   I don’t think it was any smoother than my perfectly timed slicks (maybe less smooth), but definitely hotter.   Cowl flaps almost half open and still 208dF.  (Usually 195dF, with cowl cracked). Chts all 10-15dF hotter than before, but still acceptable and it will work out better in the winter, as my engine has always run very cool at peak.    Flight condition was very hot and near standard pressure.   I might have gained a ktas or two, but it was too difficult to tell, as I was often in sink or lift due to the mountains and weather.  

My strike finder has a new area of phantom strikes straight ahead and left about 10-20 degrees.    

Ground operations are drastically improved, very smooth, but I didn’t buy a plane to drive around on the ground.

Im going to keep my slick on the shelf for a while until I’m convinced on this EI.  

Does your engine plate say 20 or 25 degrees?   Seems like 23 degrees would not be bad given that timing it variable with the electronic ignition. 

 

[Browncbr1]

17 hours ago, Yetti said:

Does your engine plate say 20 or 25 degrees?   Seems like 23 degrees would not be bad given that timing it variable with the electronic ignition. 

 

My engine runs best at 25.   Initially, I was thinking I would remove the surefly and reinstall my slick, but spruce would not respond to my request to return the surefly.   So, I’ve decided to source a new magneto drive gear that will allow correct 25 degree timing and set the dip switches to fixed timing mode.   The advancing doesn’t help performance, it hurts.  The slick will remain in my traveling parts box.  

[bob865]

14 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

My engine runs best at 25.   Initially, I was thinking I would remove the surefly and reinstall my slick, but spruce would not respond to my request to return the surefly.   So, I’ve decided to source a new magneto drive gear that will allow correct 25 degree timing and set the dip switches to fixed timing mode.   The advancing doesn’t help performance, it hurts.  The slick will remain in my traveling parts box.  

What is the part number you ended up with?  I'm having the same issue right now.  I have the mag I can't get to properly install and I'm struggling to find a part number.

[bob865]

Found it!  Called Surefly and he offered 3 part numbers.  He couldn't tell me which one was right, except that the longer part number is the dual keyway part.  I did some googling and found webpage which explains what is going on.  The webpage is talking specifically about the robinson helicopter, but the gears are the same.

https://www.aircraftmagnetoservice.net/magneto-coupling

For reference in case someone needs it in the future, the dual keyway part number is 68C19622

[Browncbr1]

10 minutes ago, bob865 said:

Found it!  Called Surefly and he offered 3 part numbers.  He couldn't tell me which one was right, except that the longer part number is the dual keyway part.  I did some googling and found webpage which explains what is going on.  The webpage is talking specifically about the robinson helicopter, but the gears are the same.

https://www.aircraftmagnetoservice.net/magneto-coupling

For reference in case someone needs it in the future, the dual keyway part number is 68C19622

Yes, this is all correct.   We both need the dual keyway version in order to time correctly.  Surefly acknowledged this design flaw and working on a revision.  They didn’t give me a timeline though.  Unfortunately, the cheapest I could find the correct drive gear is $300