Turn and Slip to Turn Coordinator/ Avionic shop advice

[DustinNwind]

Hi All, 

Plane in discussion; 1965 M20E. Photo of panel below for reference. 

I have the original wing leveler that works perfect but want to change from a turn slip to a turn coordinator - is that possible while retaining the wing leveler? Main reason is I am looking at getting two G5s and going to update the 6 pack and metal panel, thus to make it cleaner switching over to a turn coordinator. Also want to do 8 3" on the left side to move over the JPI730

What avionics shop do you recommend 3 hour flight from Los Angeles? I've gotten the wildest quotes for a single G5 installations from $3,200 - $5,081!

Also, any cost effective recommendations of where to get a new panel cut for my bird?

 

Looking forward to your thoughts. 

[gsxrpilot]

@Bryan had great luck with these guys and his panel is amazing. https://www.eapanels.com I've been trying to get a panel from them as well but haven't had much luck communicating with them yet.

 

[DustinNwind]

11 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

@Bryan had great luck with these guys and his panel is amazing. https://www.eapanels.com I've been trying to get a panel from them as well but haven't had much luck communicating with them yet.

 

Thanks Paul, just called and they said they only work with avionics shops directly. :/

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, DustinNwind said:

Thanks Paul, just called and they said they only work with avionics shops directly. :/

Yeah I think Bryan was able to impersonate an avionics shop and got them to work with him. I haven't talked to them on the phone.

 

[Bob_Belville]

When one posts a pic on MS he/she should be prepared for comments that don’t address the issue at all.

So... I’d suggest you do some checking on the condition of the engine controls. The throttle, mixture, and prop all appear to be original... well over 50 years old.

If a cable comes apart in flight it can get exciting.


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[DustinNwind]

2 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

When one posts a pic on MS he/she should be prepared for comments that don’t address the issue at all.

So... I’d suggest you do some checking on the condition of the engine controls. The throttle, mixture, and prop all appear to be original... well over 50 years old.

If a cable comes apart in flight it can get exciting.


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The maintenance/annuals over the last 20 years has been from TopGun or Lasar, which from my understanding are a couple of the best Mooney shops in the nation.. I'd assume they would be looking at these wouldn't you? I appreciate your deviation from the topic to worry someone about their plane which you have no knowledge of. Further more, it had a new engine installed in 2018 rebuilt from Western Skyways, and installed at Lincoln Skyways (another premier shop), I'd assume they looked over the cables as well. 

[ZuluZulu]

Haven't heard anything negative about High Desert up at KWJF, and they're a lot closer than 3 hours.  I've flown behind a lot of their installations, too.  Of those installations, I have almost no complaints.  There's one button placement I wasn't wild about (the PTT switch on the pilot's yoke, which was relocated to accommodate electric trim and A/P disconnect, tends to interfere with yoke-mounted iPads) but all you have to do is tell them where you want it.  I've flown behind their G5 installations, both single and dual, and even a GFC 500 installation which performed beautifully.  

But I'm assuming one of those quotes you have is from them already.

[DustinNwind]

4 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

Haven't heard anything negative about High Desert up at KWJF, and they're a lot closer than 3 hours.  I've flown behind a lot of their installations, too.  Of those installations, I have almost no complaints.  There's one button placement I wasn't wild about (the PTT switch on the pilot's yoke, which was relocated to accommodate electric trim and A/P disconnect, tends to interfere with yoke-mounted iPads) but all you have to do is tell them where you want it.  I've flown behind their G5 installations, both single and dual, and even a GFC 500 installation which performed beautifully.  

But I'm assuming one of those quotes you have is from them already.

Hi Zulu, thanks for the PIREP! I have a buddy that uses High Desert as well and I've been to their shop - really nice guys. They are slightly higher than other shops but have a good reputation, they are on the list of places to go. 

 

How do you like the G5?

[ArtVandelay]

The maintenance/annuals over the last 20 years has been from TopGun or Lasar, which from my understanding are a couple of the best Mooney shops in the nation.. I'd assume they would be looking at these wouldn't you? I appreciate your deviation from the topic to worry someone about their plane which you have no knowledge of. Further more, it had a new engine installed in 2018 rebuilt from Western Skyways, and installed at Lincoln Skyways (another premier shop), I'd assume they looked over the cables as well. 

Shops only do what the owner requests, if the owner expected to sell the plane, they might not want to go the extra mile.
In my case, I replaced my 40 year old cables. Cables are tough to appraise the condition, you can only see the ends.


Tom

[Bob_Belville]

Hey Dustin,  no  intention of worrying you. Perhaps those cables have been replaced and the original knobs retained.

McFarlane says engine controls have a useful life of about the engine's. 

But it's your plane and any advise you get here is worth what it cost you. Or less.   

[DustinNwind]

1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said:

Shops only do what the owner requests, if the owner expected to sell the plane, they might not want to go the extra mile.
In my case, I replaced my 40 year old cables. Cables are tough to appraise the condition, you can only see the ends.


Tom

 

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

Hey Dustin,  no  intention of worrying you. Perhaps those cables have been replaced and the original knobs retained.

McFarlane says engine controls have a useful life of about the engine's. 

But it's your plane and any advise you get here is worth what it cost you. Or less.   

Thank you both, much appreciated. 

[Lance Link]

You might try Accurate Aero in Minden NV.  They are doing some work for me right now.  So far they have been

on the ball in terms of knowledge, scheduling and communication, but the proof, of course, will be in the proverbial pudding.

[DustinNwind]

6 minutes ago, Lance Link said:

You might try Accurate Aero in Minden NV.  They are doing some work for me right now.  So far they have been

on the ball in terms of knowledge, scheduling and communication, but the proof, of course, will be in the proverbial pudding.

Thank you! Look forward to hearing a PIREP. 

[ZuluZulu]

2 hours ago, DustinNwind said:

How do you like the G5?

It's great, no real complaints at all.

On the EFIS version, one or two of the planes I've flown with a G5 installed didn't have the V-speeds configured, and the unit is much more useful with those on the airspeed tape.  It's a simple design, attractive looking screen, and very easy to get used to.  For some reason I always initially turn the knob the wrong way to change the altimeter setting, but that's not the G5's fault.  When flying it in conjunction with a GFC-500, I found I preferred dialing in altitudes and headings on the autopilot control unit instead of on the G5, since it's a little faster that way.  On the G5, you have to push the knob in to select, rotate, rotate.  The autopilot control unit is just a little more direct.

For the HSI version, I found myself wishing the HSI used more of the screen surface area, perhaps with a semi-circle design.  The HSI seems a little small as it's depicted in the middle of the screen with a good amount of blank space surrounding it, but you get used to it quickly.  

[carusoam]

Dustin I think I have some....

Great news...

1) The old controls are scary when you review how they fail and what happens next....

2) +1 don’t assume because they got through an annual or 10, that they are good...

3) Where’s the good news, that was promised...? The control cables are atypical...  nothing else gets ignored like these things do...

4) MS has had more than a few controls come apart...  wait... the good news is still coming...where the controls usually fall off isn’t often where you can see it... but the buttons and handles do fall apart too...

5) The 1965C was the first to get the wing leveler...

6) Its TnB was a tiny leftover (as pictured) from WWII.... and fortunately for you (the good news, almost here...)... The gyro that operates the wing leveler... isn’t in the instrument panel!

7) You can probably hear the gyro as you step off the wing... not because of any left-over vacuum left by the step... there is a gyro in the tail cone that, like the TnB indicator... is quite noisy...

8) So Expect that you can get yourself a decent TC... which is a great technical improvement Over any TnB... without any effect on the wing leveler system...

9) Realistically, Adding a second, electric, AI makes more sense... TCs wear out without telling anyone... not even TopGun... the wear doesn’t show until they are in turbulence... and then they are near impossible to follow... as the indicator bounces around uncontrollably...

10) So listen for the gyro in the back... check the logs to see if somebody added a different non-stock gyro...

11) check To See if the engine controls are really original...

12) If they are over an engine’s life old... they are not quite doomed yet... but if they are two engines old and on to the third... I know a great thread about user supplied parts...  Great controls, relatively low cost... and can be put in the standardized order...  

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[DustinNwind]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Dustin I think I have some....

Great news...

1) The old controls are scary when you review how they fail and what happens next....

2) +1 don’t assume because they got through an annual or 10, that they are good...

3) Where’s the good news, that was promised...? The control cables are atypical...  nothing else gets ignored like these things do...

4) MS has had more than a few controls come apart...  wait... the good news is still coming...where the controls usually fall off isn’t often where you can see it... but the buttons and handles do fall apart too...

5) The 1965C was the first to get the wing leveler...

6) Its TnB was a tiny leftover (as pictured) from WWII.... and fortunately for you (the good news, almost here...)... The gyro that operates the wing leveler... isn’t in the instrument panel!

7) You can probably hear the gyro as you step off the wing... not because of any left-over vacuum left by the step... there is a gyro in the tail cone that, like the TnB indicator... is quite noisy...

8) So Expect that you can get yourself a decent TC... which is a great technical improvement Over any TnB... without any effect on the wing leveler system...

9) Realistically, Adding a second, electric, AI makes more sense... TCs wear out without telling anyone... not even TopGun... the wear doesn’t show until they are in turbulence... and then they are near impossible to follow... as the indicator bounces around uncontrollably...

10) So listen for the gyro in the back... check the logs to see if somebody added a different non-stock gyro...

11) check To See if the engine controls are really original...

12) If they are over an engine’s life old... they are not quite doomed yet... but if they are two engines old and on to the third... I know a great thread about user supplied parts...  Great controls, relatively low cost... and can be put in the standardized order...  

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Always appreciate your words. Thank you. 

[0TreeLemur]

@DustinNwindThe full-size Brittain TCs that control the wing leveler are the model TC100.  You can find them and their little attached can-like "inverter" for sale on eBay for not too much (a few hundred $), then have them overhauled by a reputable repair shop of which there are several.    That will replace the gyro that -a- mentioned in the tail.   You'll need to get the approval of Brittain to do all this.  They are replying to e-mails but still in the process of transferring their STC to new owners, was the last I heard.

[Baker Avionics]

On 8/19/2019 at 3:39 PM, DustinNwind said:

Hi Zulu, thanks for the PIREP! I have a buddy that uses High Desert as well and I've been to their shop - really nice guys. They are slightly higher than other shops but have a good reputation, they are on the list of places to go. 

 

How do you like the G5?

Come visit us in Grants Pass 3S8.  Ever thought of an Aspen E5 versus Dual G5's?  Would love to discuss.

 

www.bakeravionics.com

[MIm20c]

On 8/19/2019 at 2:09 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah I think Bryan was able to impersonate an avionics shop and got them to work with him. I haven't talked to them on the phone.

 

For anyone interested in using EA panels they were not even interested in working directly with my avionics shop for a full txi panel upgrade. Basically said find a new shop that has worked with us before...well I guess that’s one way to limit future expansion. 

[MrRodgers]

Hi All, 
Plane in discussion; 1965 M20E. Photo of panel below for reference. 
I have the original wing leveler that works perfect but want to change from a turn slip to a turn coordinator - is that possible while retaining the wing leveler? Main reason is I am looking at getting two G5s and going to update the 6 pack and metal panel, thus to make it cleaner switching over to a turn coordinator. Also want to do 8 3" on the left side to move over the JPI730
What avionics shop do you recommend 3 hour flight from Los Angeles? I've gotten the wildest quotes for a single G5 installations from $3,200 - $5,081!
Also, any cost effective recommendations of where to get a new panel cut for my bird?
 
Looking forward to your thoughts. 

Contact LASAR. Their avionics department does exceptional work. In fact their maintenance, parts and service departments are all top notch. Nearly 50 years of Mooney service.


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[cliffy]

There is also Jeev here on MS He's in North Las Vegas airport.