How Soon to Retract Gear?

[DaV8or]

Quote: galt1074

Please, I'm not an expert in these airplanes so tell me how I'm wrong and tell me how I'm right. I'm trying to get back into GA but the mindset is very different from what I am used to and I need to learn.

[galt1074]

Quote: fantom

[galt1074]

I thank everyone for the replies. I'm just trying to wrap my arms around the decision process that takes place in the cockpit of light aircraft without the data that I have available. I'm a very precise person, by nature or training, and I tear students apart for using "about" or "kind of".

DaV8or I think says it as well as it can be put. The best answer in aviation is "it depends". If the environment you fly in necessitates leaving your gear down and sacrificing some performance in order to make a safe landing in the case of an engine failure then so be it. I just think it is great that you guys have this discussion beyond simply "that's how I've always done it."

Thanks guys.

[galt1074]

Quote: airfoill

What is  WAG, RSC, RCR and drag index?  We're flying single engine aircraft here.

The POH in my airplane has specific speeds with regards to performance and what to expect with speeds, climb, clearing obstacles, stopping performance, etc.  I don't understand what you mean by charted vs uncharted speed.

 

 

[galt1074]

Quote: DaV8or

Have you ever killed all the engines on your C-130 and dead sticked it in for a landing? I have with every airplane I have checked out in, including my own Mooney. I have a pretty good idea what the glide looks like and what I can and can't make with the engine off. This mental sight picture is what I use to determine usable runway. As to rotation, again it's a bit of seat of the pants. The POH gives a guideline, but I really just feel and let the plane tell me when it's ready to fly. In mine by myself, it seems to like 70mph, so I shoot for that.

 

[Vref]

a little bit deviating from the subject . It was on the news last week here..:

Top award winners named for Air Mobility Rodeo 2011

http://www.amc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123266082

Belgium had the best international team...

[Hank]

Quote: galt1074

We feel the airplane around the air quite a bit...I just have numbers to tell me where the edges of the envelope are and for critical phases of flight I need to be on the edge of the envelope which means dead on speed.

[John Pleisse]

The biggest difference between military flying, part 121 and private GA is this:

On any given day, you can go jump in your Mooney, take off into zero-fog and go kill yourself and literally, nobody would stop you. Part 91....ain't America great?

This thread has been a hair splitter over the 4 or 5  seconds that elapse between becoming airborne and the runway dissappering behind you. Give it a second, leave yourself a chance to put her back down if you need to, then don't dilly dally and get the gear up. Good Lord.

This..."well the insurance company now owns it" notion is a load of crap and for hotdogs.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: N4352H

This..."well the insurance company now owns it" notion is a load of crap and for hotdogs.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: aviatoreb

I agree that this phrase can be misused by some hotdogs.  But it is also a good mantra for an emergency situation - to remind us to save life and limb above all and worry less about hurting your paint job, the phrase helps to remind twhere the priority must be if it comes to that.  

It SHOULD be the same priority even if uninsured.

The mantra is even a favor to the insurance company, since repairing a gear up off field landing is much cheaper than pay out on any kind of injury or loss to the people inside.

[Swingin]

Quote: galt1074

[scottfromiowa]

I don't agree that the phrase is a "Hot Dog" phrase.  It is simply my mind set should the engine fail in flight.  From that point on (after re-start is a no-go) I don't give a crap about the plane.  It is all about minimizing injury to my passengers and myself.  I maintain my plane and listen to it.  If it goes quiet on me it's all about minimizing injury and IF POSSIBLE landing on a runway with gear down (DIRECT TO) etc...and let the insurance Co sort it out and hopefully make me whole.

[galt1074]

Quote: Swingin

It really takes 7 or more aircrew, being busy as hell, for you guys to arrive and depart?  I can't and won't speak to mission execution, since I've never executed your mission.  

If you want a good mil-friendly insurance company, PM me.  They will also do all the paperwork with HQ AF to get you blanket auth to land on a mil field (PPR still required, but you're on the master 'insurance' list).

 

Pete

[fantom]

In my USAF time, my plane had two seats and two engines. Many times I could hear the WSO snoring into his oxygen mask. Occasionally however he was worth his weight in JP-4 and saved my bacon. Night strike mission planning to Route Pack 6 during Linebacker II took ~ 2 hours. Nobody snored through them.

[WardHolbrook]

When it comes to airplanes, it's normally poor form to use the words "always" or "never". I'll say right up front that there are exceptions to each and every rule. That being said, when I'm flying piston-powered SE aircraft with retractable gear, I "normally" will leave the gear extended as long as I've got usable runway beneath me. Of course there are exceptions, but that's the rule as far as I'm concerned.

I've lost an engine in a Mooney M20C a few moments after liftoff and I'm grateful that the gear was still out. I was able to simply lower the nose and land on the remaining runway. It was absolutely no big deal. I understand that the manual gear cycles very quickly, but you've got your hands very full at that point and having one more thing to do under those conditions doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

I'm not buying the arguement that getting the gear up ASAP makes any kind of significant difference in altitude achieved vs leaving it extended for those few additional moments. Again, there will always be the 10,000' long runway exceptions, but I'm talking general practice. 

I always shake my head when I see the Bozos in their SE retracts rotate, get the gear coming up and pull the power back in one seemingly continous motion. (A stunt normally performed when they think they have an audience watching them excersizing their superior flying skills.) It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what they are setting themselves up for. 

As always, this is just my personal opinion and of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: carusoam

 

Too soon...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrO6MNvvSHE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[fantom]

I can remember some hotdogs who while at full power in the takeoff roll, but before liftoff, would retract the gear. Quite impressive to watch, but an accident waiting to happen.

[jetdriven]

In the manual gear Mooneys it makes more sense to delay retraction as raising the gear is a significant distraction, In that case, climb at Vx or Vy to keep the speed down until ready to stow the gear.  I have found in the J, the climb rate is more sedate and raising (or lowering) the gear is a much smaller distraction. It doesnt climb well dirty at all.  In that case, positive rate, gear up. 

Bonanza guys maybe they care more about looking cool, I dont know. Bonanzas have more horsepower and climb very well gear up or down.  A J does not.

Quote: WardHolbrook

I've lost an engine in a Mooney M20C a few moments after liftoff and I'm grateful that the gear was still out. I was able to simply lower the nose and land on the remaining runway. It was absolutely no big deal. I understand that the manual gear cycles very quickly, but you've got your hands very full at that point and having one more thing to do under those conditions doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

I'm not buying the arguement that getting the gear up ASAP makes any kind of significant difference in altitude achieved vs leaving it extended for those few additional moments. Again, there will always be the 10,000' long runway exceptions, but I'm talking general practice. 

I always shake my head when I see the Bozos in their SE retracts rotate, get the gear coming up and pull the power back in one seemingly continous motion. (A stunt normally performed when they think they have an audience watching them excersizing their superior flying skills.) It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what they are setting themselves up for. 

As always, this is just my personal opinion and of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[Hank]

Quote: jetdriven

[Shadrach]

I departed last night at midnight from a DA of 1800ft (770AGL). less than 15 mins to get to 12K... I do not understand the desparity between the modern and vintage birds in climb. As I've said before, my F will outclimb my neighbor's Bravo to 3000' in winter.... 

[carusoam]

This one has all the goods...

 

Touch and go + gear raising + bonanza fodder

 

 

It only happens to the other guys...

 

Best regards,

 

-a-