jkarch Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 21 minutes ago, RogueOne said: Yup, that pretty much sums it up. I think the avionics would function much better than portrayed and could certainly be refurbed on the gyros. Discounting heavily on the engine. At by in. My discussion with owner would be this is where I am and why. Pretty sure he will say pound sand, but you never know. I know the guys pilot and his college room-mate. I am not looking for charity, but I will not overpay for an airframe and power plant that need a lot of work. My question still has not been answered. What would you offer on the plane based on the knowns? So I was in a similar situation a few weeks ago. I have an M20J with ADS-B, a GTN-750, GDL-88, decent paint and interior, and 2500TT on the airframe, 1250 TT on the engine. I found the bad cam, which basically made my plane a "run-out" aircraft. With the GTN, FlightStream, Indicator, and GDL-88 and low time on the airframe the plane is likely worth about 80K. I was quoted 37K for the reman, 17.5K core exchange fee, ended up paying 5k for hoses, 2k for baffling, and will be plunking another 2100 down for prop reseal, oil cooler overhaul, replacement vacuum pump, and governor overhaul. So that's 46K before labor, before an EDM-900 which I feel is a necessity for a new engine, so that makes this a 55K for a firewall forward job. Once done, my 2500 TT airframe 1981J should be worth 130-135K. No way in heck I'm selling it after this job though at least for a few years. Instrument wise, you might be able to put a GTN-750 and GDL-88 in and trade in avionics for 30K. THen fuel tank repairs at Weep No more are 8K, and additional issues and parts makes it 100K. Based on that, once done with all of that firewall forward and avionics work done, you're looking at a 130K airframe. That leaves you with $30K for the airframe. If you are willing to give up on $10-15k for the labor, maybe the most I'd offer is $45K, but that's generous.. That way you can part out the avionics, etc. The rotting engine has a 95% chance of being junk within 25-50 hours. This firewall forward quote is for the IO360-A3B6 engine. For $45K you have the plane your way. 3 1 Quote
Hank Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, jkarch said: This firewall forward quote is for the IO360-A3B6 engine. For $45K you have the plane your way. Except this is a Missile with an IO-5×0 (?), the price will be two cylinders and a longer cam shaft more expensive . . . . . 1 Quote
carusoam Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 IO550(a) for the Missile... 300 rip snortin’, NA, hp with that... Cams are lower and closer to the oil and have not been reported to have the same cam issues as often as we see around here... There is some other advantages if the cam and followers do need to come out... I believe it is done with the engine in place??? So not a full tear down... See what the UL is... Some Rocket Engineering planes are known to have the higher MTOW number regardless of the serial number... +1 Missile. Still no absolute answer for the OP question... but... check with Jimmy, he updated the M20 price calculator and offered to share it... He shares his work, and you get to look at what he has for sale for comparison... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
M016576 Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) I actually own a missile- feel free to PM me for more information on missile specifics. heres the piece that many other posters fail to account for: that IO-550A on the front is more expensive to overhaul than an IO-360... but also doesn’t have the same cam spalling issues reported frequently that the IO-360 has. ALSO... you may say “well, it’s just a run out J”... but if you put up that io-550 on a missile, it does faster than Ovation speeds, and if it is a later serial number model- probably with a greater useful load. No other run out J will do that for you Missile can equal faster and haul more than ovation, but with slightly less area in the baggage compartment. so.... you’ve found one of about 45 Missile conversions. If you want a mooney that’s faster than an ovation, and at 1/2 the price... you may have found a winner. Of course- that’s assuming that the airframe is clean. If you offer the seller 60K, if he knows what he’s got, he’ll laugh you out of the room, unless the airframe is total trash. If it’s as clean as you describe, 90-110 might be OK- and it would be a great find. If it has any issues though- corrosion, etc.. skip it- just like any other mooney.. as it would be more expensive to resurrect than operate. Edited July 12, 2019 by M016576 6 Quote
MIm20c Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, RogueOne said: Oh well. I think this is a pipe dream anyway. Jeez people are awesome. (Sarcasm) I was just trying to help, oh well. Since you keep asking for someone else to value the plane I’ll bite... No corrosion in the normal spots I’d say 75-80 ish. I’d sell off the worst 430 and slide in a 430w/440, patch the tank, reseal the prop, change the hoses and tires/tubes, refresh the brakes, get it signed off and fly it. You might get another 500-1000 hrs on the engine. Eventually replace the instruments with the g3x/txi/aspen and do the LR tank upgrade if it hasn’t been done or just get a reseal. 1 Quote
jkarch Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Hank said: Except this is a Missile with an IO-5×0 (?), the price will be two cylinders and a longer cam shaft more expensive . . . . . But what value is a missile conversion other than the STC if the engine’s all corroded? Quote
carusoam Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 JK, I think that is the valid argument... STCs, when they were available, were expensive... and the engine and prop were extra... Opting for these things brand new was surreal for an ordinary aviator... as were the other modded things like the 262 and 232... It took Knowing mechanically what you were getting... and the stack of cash to make it happen... For businesses needing GA to support their work... these things made a lot of sense... For the 45 lucky people... they were lucky before they got their Missiles... (hmmm... preparation + hard work = luck) For the even luckier Rocket Pilots... That’s a trifecta... technical knowledge, stack of cash, and pilot knowledge/experience for flying in the FLs regularly... There won’t be much of a reason to flop back and forth between an M20J and a Missile...that probably could be done... if for some reason an IO360, prop, engine mount and cowl became available... I think there isn’t much difference for a pilot that would be happy with a J... he would be equally happy with a Missile or an Ovation... happiness is balanced by the dollar half of the equation... to make this happen simply live through a recession with M20J money in your pocket... wait about a year after the bottom... the economy is always changing... It may be possible to see what the cost of the Missile STC used to be... the Rocket Engineering website is still in existence... they may have it listed... PP thoughts only... I covered some of this with Rogue in advance... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Andy95W Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 37 minutes ago, jkarch said: But what value is a missile conversion other than the STC if the engine’s all corroded? A lot more than an M20J with an engine that's all corroded. As posted above, there were only 45 converted and there will never be any more, only less. Scott- thanks for taking the time to post this. Missiles are pretty rare and I would love to have this one. I can't justify it, but I'd love it. 2 Quote
aviatoreb Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) I understand the desire to get an airplane so cheap that it is a fantastically better deal than anything else out there. But from where I sit, I think if a person wants a missile, which seems like quite a desirable airplane, then it might cost something. If this is as described, a missile which is in good shape otherwise than a run-out engine, then that is a pretty good thing to work with. So after cost of an engine, how does this airplane compete with other missiles available with zero time engines? Since then an airplane with a zero time engine is even more desirable, esp one that you get to overhaul as you wish. So these pricing discussions are not fair contrasting to an engine that may be mid-life, say 1050 hrs. Not in terms of what the value would be to me if I were shopping. What is the cost of the least expensive but quality engine overhaul? I see people used the factory zero time cost which is quite desirable but not absolutely necessary when pricing a barn find. How much is a complete engine plus r&r from jewell aviation for example? Edited July 12, 2019 by aviatoreb 2 Quote
RogueOne Posted July 12, 2019 Author Report Posted July 12, 2019 9 hours ago, MIm20c said: I was just trying to help, oh well. Since you keep asking for someone else to value the plane I’ll bite... No corrosion in the normal spots I’d say 75-80 ish. I’d sell off the worst 430 and slide in a 430w/440, patch the tank, reseal the prop, change the hoses and tires/tubes, refresh the brakes, get it signed off and fly it. You might get another 500-1000 hrs on the engine. Eventually replace the instruments with the g3x/txi/aspen and do the LR tank upgrade if it hasn’t been done or just get a reseal. I know (not trying to help you have helped). Much appreciated. My comment was regarding humanity and the willingness to “undercut you” when you identify an opportunity YOU found. Unethical and mean spirited are how I would identify those individuals. The ugly side of “business”... Quote
RogueOne Posted July 12, 2019 Author Report Posted July 12, 2019 30 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: I understand the desire to get an airplane so cheap that it is a fantastically better deal than anything else out there. But from where I sit, I think if a person wants a missile, which seems like quite a desirable airplane, then it might cost something. If this is as described, a missile which is in good shape otherwise than a run-out engine, then that is a pretty good thing to work with. So after cost of an engine, how does this airplane compete with other missiles available with zero time engines? Since then an airplane with a zero time engine is even more desirable, esp one that you get to overhaul as you wish. So these pricing discussions are not fair contrasting to an engine that may be mid-life, say 1050 hrs. Not in terms of what the value would be to me if I were shopping. What is the cost of the least expensive but quality engine overhaul? I see people used the factory zero time cost which is quite desirable but not absolutely necessary when pricing a barn find. How much is a complete engine plus r&r from jewell aviation for example? Yes. THAT is the number that I am looking for. $75 to 80ish is what 20c input. THAT would be “top of the range” in my mind. Primarily due to my experience in bringing back a barn find once and the not likely, but inevitable “issues” that require AMU’s. It is a constant open squak faucet that becomes a trickle that becomes a wonderful dispatchable airframe. I likely would not go that high BUT I appreciate hearing what others Think about it. 1 Quote
RogueOne Posted July 12, 2019 Author Report Posted July 12, 2019 8 hours ago, carusoam said: JK, I think that is the valid argument... STCs, when they were available, were expensive... and the engine and prop were extra... Opting for these things brand new was surreal for an ordinary aviator... as were the other modded things like the 262 and 232... It took Knowing mechanically what you were getting... and the stack of cash to make it happen... For businesses needing GA to support their work... these things made a lot of sense... For the 45 lucky people... they were lucky before they got their Missiles... (hmmm... preparation + hard work = luck) For the even luckier Rocket Pilots... That’s a trifecta... technical knowledge, stack of cash, and pilot knowledge/experience for flying in the FLs regularly... There won’t be much of a reason to flop back and forth between an M20J and a Missile...that probably could be done... if for some reason an IO360, prop, engine mount and cowl became available... I think there isn’t much difference for a pilot that would be happy with a J... he would be equally happy with a Missile or an Ovation... happiness is balanced by the dollar half of the equation... to make this happen simply live through a recession with M20J money in your pocket... wait about a year after the bottom... the economy is always changing... It may be possible to see what the cost of the Missile STC used to be... the Rocket Engineering website is still in existence... they may have it listed... PP thoughts only... I covered some of this with Rogue in advance... Best regards, -a- Yes. -a- gave very good wise council. Thank you -a- very much. Just opening it up for additional insight/opinions. Quote
RogueOne Posted July 12, 2019 Author Report Posted July 12, 2019 9 hours ago, M016576 said: I actually own a missile- feel free to PM me for more information on missile specifics. heres the piece that many other posters fail to account for: that IO-550A on the front is more expensive to overhaul than an IO-360... but also doesn’t have the same cam spalling issues reported frequently that the IO-360 has. ALSO... you may say “well, it’s just a run out J”... but if you put up that io-550 on a missile, it does faster than Ovation speeds, and if it is a later serial number model- probably with a greater useful load. No other run out J will do that for you Missile can equal faster and haul more than ovation, but with slightly less area in the baggage compartment. so.... you’ve found one of about 45 Missile conversions. If you want a mooney that’s faster than an ovation, and at 1/2 the price... you may have found a winner. Of course- that’s assuming that the airframe is clean. If you offer the seller 60K, if he knows what he’s got, he’ll laugh you out of the room, unless the airframe is total trash. If it’s as clean as you describe, 90-110 might be OK- and it would be a great find. If it has any issues though- corrosion, etc.. skip it- just like any other mooney.. as it would be more expensive to resurrect than operate. Thank you. As an owner, like THIS owner of a Missile I believe you are right. In his eyes it likely has that value.....The reality is he paid that when he bought it and then ran the engine to TBO and let it sit for half a decade. I don’t (and would never) value the airframe, as it sits, at $90-110k. I believe the guy needs to take pity on me for this to happen. It is the only Mooney I lust for (over my plane). It will be significantly more to operate and own and require sorting. I am o.k. With that, but I overpaid for an airframe once. NOT going to do that again. If by a stroke of luck I do acquire: I hope to have you on speed dial MO 1 Quote
RogueOne Posted July 12, 2019 Author Report Posted July 12, 2019 11 hours ago, jkarch said: So I was in a similar situation a few weeks ago. I have an M20J with ADS-B, a GTN-750, GDL-88, decent paint and interior, and 2500TT on the airframe, 1250 TT on the engine. I found the bad cam, which basically made my plane a "run-out" aircraft. With the GTN, FlightStream, Indicator, and GDL-88 and low time on the airframe the plane is likely worth about 80K. I was quoted 37K for the reman, 17.5K core exchange fee, ended up paying 5k for hoses, 2k for baffling, and will be plunking another 2100 down for prop reseal, oil cooler overhaul, replacement vacuum pump, and governor overhaul. So that's 46K before labor, before an EDM-900 which I feel is a necessity for a new engine, so that makes this a 55K for a firewall forward job. Once done, my 2500 TT airframe 1981J should be worth 130-135K. No way in heck I'm selling it after this job though at least for a few years. Instrument wise, you might be able to put a GTN-750 and GDL-88 in and trade in avionics for 30K. THen fuel tank repairs at Weep No more are 8K, and additional issues and parts makes it 100K. Based on that, once done with all of that firewall forward and avionics work done, you're looking at a 130K airframe. That leaves you with $30K for the airframe. If you are willing to give up on $10-15k for the labor, maybe the most I'd offer is $45K, but that's generous.. That way you can part out the avionics, etc. The rotting engine has a 95% chance of being junk within 25-50 hours. This firewall forward quote is for the IO360-A3B6 engine. For $45K you have the plane your way. J, Thank you for a great post! Puts it in perspective for sure. Oh, if only I could get that airframe for $45k. In a fantasy world that would happen. I am willing to pay more. $60-70k would be where I would have to be. Based on a current owner he will either laugh and hang up the phone. Just hang up OR swear at me and then hang up... Sigh... Quote
KSMooniac Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 Missiles are special, and if you want one, you might have to be patient, or pay a premium, or both. A local guy I know started with a Missile, and later got a FIKI O3 for his business (year round travel). He still loves his Missile more and has both. I haven't looked for the plane. I wonder what damage history it has...generally I'm ok with properly repaired and documented damage on a Mooney. Corrosion is a deal-killer. If you like the paint and interior, the rest of the details are very workable with dollars and sweat equity if you're so inclined. Price it as an engine run-out and consider any time you get as bonus. You can likely get into to it and overhaul the engine without becoming upside down immediately, or at least badly so! Avionics are getting cheaper...perhaps a plane like this could use the full Dynon suite when it is available and update everything at once for modest money. Slap a tail beacon or GDL82 on in the interim and wait.Assume you buy it...in 5 years would you be bitter if you "overpaid" for the airframe by 5-10 AMU? Or would you have the biggest excrement-eating grin on your face flying around at 185 knots? In a plane that you're into for Without knowing all of the details,I think this would be smoking deal at 70, and still a buy at more than that. Barring corrosion of course.Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk 2 1 Quote
RogueOne Posted July 12, 2019 Author Report Posted July 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, KSMooniac said: Missiles are special, and if you want one, you might have to be patient, or pay a premium, or both. A local guy I know started with a Missile, and later got a FIKI O3 for his business (year round travel). He still loves his Missile more and has both. I haven't looked for the plane. I wonder what damage history it has...generally I'm ok with properly repaired and documented damage on a Mooney. Corrosion is a deal-killer. If you like the paint and interior, the rest of the details are very workable with dollars and sweat equity if you're so inclined. Price it as an engine run-out and consider any time you get as bonus. You can likely get into to it and overhaul the engine without becoming upside down immediately, or at least badly so! Avionics are getting cheaper...perhaps a plane like this could use the full Dynon suite when it is available and update everything at once for modest money. Slap a tail beacon or GDL82 on in the interim and wait. Assume you buy it...in 5 years would you be bitter if you "overpaid" for the airframe by 5-10 AMU? Or would you have the biggest excrement-eating grin on your face flying around at 185 knots? In a plane that you're into for Without knowing all of the details,I think this would be smoking deal at 70, and still a buy at more than that. Barring corrosion of course. Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk I used up my reactions for day Thanks for a wonderful post. I 100% agree, but finances are a factor and I lived a total refurb once. No regrets, but I love my existing plane (all I really need). The Missile would be living “the dream”. 2 Quote
aviatoreb Posted July 12, 2019 Report Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, RogueOne said: I used up my reactions for day Thanks for a wonderful post. I 100% agree, but finances are a factor and I lived a total refurb once. No regrets, but I love my existing plane (all I really need). The Missile would be living “the dream”. ...that's my thought. Living the dream. To add to what KSMoniac said - I agree that at 70k seems like a smokin' deal to me (and considering what I said how much it costs to bring to a pristine airplane with a new engine yada yada) and still a reasonable deal at 90k, all depending on how much you want a Missile and now. 100k is probably too much but not crazy - when you contrast to what a person might be listing this same airplane for with a 0 SMOH engine (and what it costs you to do so from Jewell). Missiles are pretty awesome - I have flown in Seth's with him. Rocket Engineering is a pretty good company with good designs. Rockets are pretty awesome too (I have one!) but a bit more expensive still to operate - fuel aside - and a fair bit more expensive still if you consider the fuel too...which you should. But...the Grin is still there in my 11th year of owning this bird. +/- 10k would have hardly made a dent over all in the total 10 year cost of owning the airplane. And wouldn't have changed the grin much. Honestly, I like very much the idea of a reasonably priced Missile with a run-out engine to overhaul my way and to operate perfectly my way from hour one of break in. Edited July 12, 2019 by aviatoreb 3 1 Quote
RogueOne Posted July 13, 2019 Author Report Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, aviatoreb said: ...that's my thought. Living the dream. To add to what KSMoniac said - I agree that at 70k seems like a smokin' deal to me (and considering what I said how much it costs to bring to a pristine airplane with a new engine yada yada) and still a reasonable deal at 90k, all depending on how much you want a Missile and now. 100k is probably too much but not crazy - when you contrast to what a person might be listing this same airplane for with a 0 SMOH engine (and what it costs you to do so from Jewell). Missiles are pretty awesome - I have flown in Seth's with him. Rocket Engineering is a pretty good company with good designs. Rockets are pretty awesome too (I have one!) but a bit more expensive still to operate - fuel aside - and a fair bit more expensive still if you consider the fuel too...which you should. But...the Grin is still there in my 11th year of owning this bird. +/- 10k would have hardly made a dent over all in the total 10 year cost of owning the airplane. And wouldn't have changed the grin much. Honestly, I like very much the idea of a reasonably priced Missile with a run-out engine to overhaul my way and to operate perfectly my way from hour one of break in. I wish we had a third co-owner...Then a no-brainer to be with ya (lower altitude ) grinnin’... Edited July 13, 2019 by RogueOne 1 Quote
thinwing Posted July 13, 2019 Report Posted July 13, 2019 Hey Rogue...you’ve spent so much time on conversation on MS on this bird.....if you could have afforded it you would have quietly done the deal....instead...lots of drama....so why bother the rest of us?? Quote
Niko182 Posted July 13, 2019 Report Posted July 13, 2019 39 minutes ago, thinwing said: Hey Rogue...you’ve spent so much time on conversation on MS on this bird.....if you could have afforded it you would have quietly done the deal....instead...lots of drama....so why bother the rest of us?? a boy can dream. Quote
RogueOne Posted July 13, 2019 Author Report Posted July 13, 2019 I find it entertaining. You find it dramatic. I am good with that. 1 Quote
Niko182 Posted July 13, 2019 Report Posted July 13, 2019 I say if you can afford it, go for it. I think most missiles will cruise at around 185 on 16 gph, so around the same speed as a fast ovation. If you can afford it, why not. Its a cool ride, and one upgrade that seems to work very well on the rocket conversions is an mt prop. Id say do it. Owning a M20E is a pretty irrational choice. Why not make it a little more irrational and own a M20 with 300hp. 3 Quote
RogueOne Posted July 13, 2019 Author Report Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Niko182 said: I say if you can afford it, go for it. I think most missiles will cruise at around 185 on 16 gph, so around the same speed as a fast ovation. If you can afford it, why not. Its a cool ride, and one upgrade that seems to work very well on the rocket conversions is an mt prop. Id say do it. Owning a M20E is a pretty irrational choice. Why not make it a little more irrational and own a M20 with 300hp. Because one is paid for and squak free with <2700tt and 550 on a 2000hr tbo...We shall see. Owners pilot has my number. I hope for a call soon. I hear ya though. My co-owner is in Canada fishing. A lot of pieces in the puzzle as it were or “drama” Edited July 13, 2019 by RogueOne 1 Quote
RogueOne Posted July 15, 2019 Author Report Posted July 15, 2019 I have a price from owner. Proceeding, but so as not to be dramatic I will just STFU about it and quietly proceed with the deal... 2 Quote
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