J seats into an E model

[NJMac]

Let's suppose you know a guy who bought J seats for his E. Would it be as simple as just switching them out or is there more to it like paperwork?

 

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[RLCarter]

Suppose this guy could see if they fit and take a picture so other E owners could see? I think they will go right in and higher backs would be a plus for me anyway. I could be wrong but because they are Mooney seats with no modifications it’s just a logbook entry like on the shoulder harnesses?

[NJMac]

This guys a&p wanted to push them into some FAA engineering thing. That's why the question came up.

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[RLCarter]

They are already certified by the FAA. There has been several on here that have gone to the articulating seats in the short bodied Mooney’s, might try a search on here to see what is out there

[KSMooniac]

My engineering opinion is that it is a minor mod. As mentioned above, they're already certified since they came out of a Mooney. They fit the E model, so no changes need to be made there to make them work. Just update the aircraft W&B (with IA signature) and make a logbook entry as a minor mod.

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[Jerry 5TJ]

Well, the guy’s A&P has a point in that the seats from the J are the wrong part number for an E.  

Just what log entry wording does the guy anticipate drafting for the change?

[NJMac]

Well, the guy’s A&P has a point in that the seats from the J are the wrong part number for an E.  
Just what log entry wording does the guy anticipate drafting for the change?

If it were me, I wouldn't put anything in the logs and swap the old ones in if I ever sell. But i can't speak for him...

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[JimB]

19 hours ago, NJMac said:

If it were me, I wouldn't put anything in the logs and swap the old ones in if I ever sell. But i can't speak for him...

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Having spent 30 years dealing (i.e.: arguing/fighting) with the FAA, Transport Canada and EASA in my 121 maintenance/QA management job, I am really beginning to love GA. 

[David Lloyd]

I recently removed some late model articulating possibly undocumented seats from an older C model.  Front and rear cotters removed, front rollers off the rail...what the heck.  Could not remove the rear rollers from the rail.  Seat backs are about an inch thicker at the base than the original, preventing the seat from sliding back far enough to be removed. Only way to remove the seats were to remove the seat back at the hinge.

[75_M20F]

4 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

I recently removed some late model articulating possibly undocumented seats from an older C model.  Front and rear cotters removed, front rollers off the rail...what the heck.  Could not remove the rear rollers from the rail.  Seat backs are about an inch thicker at the base than the original, preventing the seat from sliding back far enough to be removed. Only way to remove the seats were to remove the seat back at the hinge.

Well, sine you said they are articulating I know what the problem may have been. You prob. needed to raise the seats vertical adjustment to max height then slide them back. Otherwise they will never slide back far enough to come off the rear rail. (They will hit the spar first)….

Edited July 2, 2019 by 75_M20F

[NJMac]

Having spent 30 years dealing (i.e.: arguing/fighting) with the FAA, Transport Canada and EASA in my 121 maintenance/QA management job, I am really beginning to love GA. 

I think that's a good thing? This guy is sometimes put off by unnecessary regs. I can relate.

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[David Lloyd]

1 hour ago, 75_M20F said:

Well, sine you said they are articulating I know what the problem may have been. You prob. needed to raise the seats vertical adjustment to max height then slide them back. Otherwise they will never slide back far enough to come off the rear rail. (They will hit the spar first)….

Bleep!  Didn't think of that.  Maybe.  I don't think the crank had been adjusted in years.  Scared I would break the handle if I tried too hard.  Works great now after a little TLC and grease. 

[Andy95W]

@NJMac- how much do you want for your old E seats?  I have a friend who has an old C that might be interested.

[M20F-1968]

I have Ovation seats in my 1968 F.  They fit on the rails just fine.  The rails are all the same cross-section.  The differences are how the are drilled (the holes for the seat pins that is) and the relief of the seat rails which allows the seats to come off the rails.  The holes for the rivets mounting them to the floor are that same in that the outboard rails have one rivet pattern and the inboard rails have a second rivet pattern.

They should be mounted on the floor exactly the same distance apart in all the models.

I installed my Ovation seats with a DER's approval, as I installed the entire Ovation interior, glareshield  and ventilation system into my

1968 F.

John Breda

[cliffy]

4 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I installed my Ovation seats with a DER's approval

We have a winner here!   YUP, installed with some reference to approval method. 

Without some approval method how can an IA determine that the airplane meets its Type Certificate at annual time with this "alteration"? Even with a Minor Alteration some A&P still needs to sign it off. Now if someone wants to remove and replace seats before every annual then have at it, that takes the IA out of the picture. Then its between the owner and the FAA if anything comes up between annuals. 

[Bob_Belville]

Will seats from Js and later all accommodate a JBar gear?

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Will seats from Js and later all accommodate a JBar gear?

I would like to know as well... 

[DXB]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Will seats from Js and later all accommodate a JBar gear?

Per @M20F-1968 the Ovation ones will work in a J Bar F model - quite possibly the coolest vintage Mooney in existence.

[NJMac]

I would like to know as well... 

Hopefully I'll find out soon. Try to convince Andy to trade me my old seats for his A&P signature in my logbooks.

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[M20F-1968]

5 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Will seats from Js and later all accommodate a JBar gear?

Yes, the seats from J's and later will fit in the Vintage Mooney models (at least the E's and F's - and I believe the others as well.  

You likely will need to relieve the anterior 1" or so of the seat rail to get the co-pilot seat out as the wheel well comes more aft into the cabin in the vintage planes.  However, if you are changing seat rails due to worn holes, there are other Mooney model seat rails that have more relief and may be a better choice.  They all are the same cross-section and the holes in the floor of all the models appear accepting the rivets appear to be the same pattern across all models.  The seat rails are drilled on a CNC machine at the factory. 

Of course, with anything you do in this regard you will need prior approved data and someone's signature on a piece of paper attesting that there is engineering data to support the substitution nd they approve the parts installation.   A DER is well worth their fees given the they are likely the only real source of an approval.  I have the Ovation fully articulating sets and are well worth the work to make the exchange.

John Breda

[NJMac]

I have it on good authority that the J seats fit marvelously in an E. And they're comfy as anything. Back seat was the largest improvement by far. Thinking of redoing the E seats while they're out now and putting them back in the plane to sell the Js.

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