ANR headsets harmful?

[RogueOne]

PS: Jim, I would cease wearing ANR and go to a David Clark passive unit if you have ringing/tenitis after a GA flight.  Sorry that you are having these issues.  As a 49 year old you have a lot of years left.  Being hard of hearing is no fun.  We have all been around people so disabled and struggling to communicate.  Protect what you have got.  Once “it” quality hearing is gone...it is gone.

[Stephen]

40 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

PS: Jim, I would cease wearing ANR and go to a David Clark passive unit if you have ringing/tenitis after a GA flight.  

My anecdotal experience is that ANR exacerbates (if not a very possible cause) of my tinnitus. I work on conference calls in IT, and switched to binaural headsets to help get  better sound quality to, among other things, better understand the rather frequent *heavy* international accents. I used them, often 6-8+ hrs a day. I used passive ear buds for years with no issues, and then went to Bose ANR ear buds. That is when I started getting tennitis. I thought it was possibly due to the in-ear buds as the issue so went to speaker phone and it subsided, but never cleared. So thought ok, ear-buds bad, got these to use for phone/web conferences and my many airline flights:

Fidelity was wonderful and comfort was waaaay better than my bose aviation headset so added the crystal mic to use these in the plane. The tinnitus started picking up and after a year+ of using them, I took a break and used almost exclusively speaker phone (pain in the rear), for about 1.5 months. Tennitus went away completely in left ear and almost to nil in right...   Started using them but turned the ANR off (which you can do with the QC35's) and seemed ok...no re-occurance. Went back on the ANR and ringing seemed to increase in right ear, buzzing started occurring again in left. I know it is anecdotal, but I am starting to think the ANR, or certain implementations of ANR, are no bueno for some people. Wife has HALOs, plan on getting my own at Air Venture this year.  

 

[toto]

43 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

 Once “it” quality hearing is gone...it is gone.

For entertainment purposes only.. there's a lot of silliness on the interwebs about how FX-322 will reverse hearing loss.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03616223

 

 

[Andy95W]

@Stephen- if you buy at OSH, go early- oftentimes Phil sells out by Wednesday/Thursday. 

[toto]

Given all of the developments in GA headsets, I guess that I'm in the minority.. but all I really want is the best possible hearing protection. Physical comfort is definitely a lower priority for me. 

I currently use an A20, but honestly I don't care about weight or clamping force or anything else as much as I care about NRR. 

The Bose X felt like a major step backward in passive reduction from the gel-earcup tank that they built for their Series I/II headsets. But the ENR was probably better. Then the A20 felt like another step backward in passive, with another step forward in electronics. 

I think that the best headset I ever wore was a DC 13.2S that I hacked with a Headsets Inc kit. The sound quality was definitely worse than a Bose, but it felt like a good balance of passive and active noise reduction. 

I was ultimately swayed that Bose really knows what they're doing, and that putting my hearing in their hands was a better gamble than putting my hearing in the hands of a hacked passive set. But it's astonishing how awful the PNR is on an A20 set when it loses power. 

[Stephen]

3 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

@Stephen- if you buy at OSH, go early- oftentimes Phil sells out by Wednesday/Thursday. 

I'm probably hosed. Wife doesn't have off till 7/26 

[RogueOne]

4 minutes ago, toto said:

Given all of the developments in GA headsets, I guess that I'm in the minority.. but all I really want is the best possible hearing protection. Physical comfort is definitely a lower priority for me. 

I currently use an A20, but honestly I don't care about weight or clamping force or anything else as much as I care about NRR. 

The Bose X felt like a major step backward in passive reduction from the gel-earcup tank that they built for their Series I/II headsets. But the ENR was probably better. Then the A20 felt like another step backward in passive, with another step forward in electronics. 

I think that the best headset I ever wore was a DC 13.2S that I hacked with a Headsets Inc kit. The sound quality was definitely worse than a Bose, but it felt like a good balance of passive and active noise reduction. 

I was ultimately swayed that Bose really knows what they're doing, and that putting my hearing in their hands was a better gamble than putting my hearing in the hands of a hacked passive set. But it's astonishing how awful the PNR is on an A20 set when it loses power. 

I don’t fly professionally and the noise levels in my plane without headsets are not over 100db.  I fly 75 hours a year.  I want comfort.  I wear ear inserts when shooting/at concerts/cutting grass/weed whacking again comfort as I don’t do these activities that often.  Can you imagine the future hearing loss with young adults cranking sterero’s with subs and wearing ear phones for music/video games constantly?  Hearing loss will be big business in 30-50 years...

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, Stephen said:

I'm probably hosed. Wife doesn't have off till 7/26 

Let me know if you want me to grab you a set early in the week.

[RogueOne]

As Ralphie said:  Son of an itch a crummy commercial...

[Stephen]

On 6/22/2019 at 12:44 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Let me know if you want me to grab you a set early in the week.

Thanks Paul!! I will, I think I have a line on some but will call out well before the show. Thanks again, very much appreciate the offer!

[Guest]

On 6/22/2019 at 11:31 AM, Stephen said:

My anecdotal experience is that ANR exacerbates (if not a very possible cause) of my tinnitus. I work on conference calls in IT, and switched to binaural headsets to help get  better sound quality to, among other things, better understand the rather frequent *heavy* international accents. I used them, often 6-8+ hrs a day. I used passive ear buds for years with no issues, and then went to Bose ANR ear buds. That is when I started getting tennitis. I thought it was possibly due to the in-ear buds as the issue so went to speaker phone and it subsided, but never cleared. So thought ok, ear-buds bad, got these to use for phone/web conferences and my many airline flights:

Fidelity was wonderful and comfort was waaaay better than my bose aviation headset so added the crystal mic to use these in the plane. The tinnitus started picking up and after a year+ of using them, I took a break and used almost exclusively speaker phone (pain in the rear), for about 1.5 months. Tennitus went away completely in left ear and almost to nil in right...   Started using them but turned the ANR off (which you can do with the QC35's) and seemed ok...no re-occurance. Went back on the ANR and ringing seemed to increase in right ear, buzzing started occurring again in left. I know it is anecdotal, but I am starting to think the ANR, or certain implementations of ANR, are no bueno for some people. Wife has HALOs, plan on getting my own at Air Venture this year.  

 

I’m curious to know how many of us have tinnitus and how many wear ANR headsets? I have both.

Clarence

[EricJ]

23 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m curious to know how many of us have tinnitus and how many wear ANR headsets? I have both.

Clarence

Same here.   I had the tinnitus before I started wearing the ANR sets.   I think the ANR helps a lot.

 

[Jim Peace]

On 6/24/2019 at 10:03 PM, M20Doc said:

I’m curious to know how many of us have tinnitus and how many wear ANR headsets? I have both.

Clarence

I have both. 

[Austintatious]

Ok, you guys are going to call me crazy.

So after purchaseing a Rocket i started to wonder about what sort of headsets to get for it.  I decided to compare 2 different sets I already had.

 

The first I tried as the David clark x11 with ANR.  I thought it was pretty good.

 

The second was the bose QC35 with the ufly mic.  I was certain it was going to be completely ineffective.  To my surprise, it completely surpassed the DC x11.   I have put 4 of them in my aircraft.

[RogueOne]

This is a B.S. exercise.  So much goes into a lifetime of hearing impact and you are going to blame ANR headsets for your hearing woes?  Dick.Ric.U.Lous.  The number of hours you fly per year is peanuts UNLESS you are a professional pilot.  G.A.?  Give me a break on ANR is ruining your hearing and causing you tennitis.  Whole lot of idiocy.  Let me know how your class action works out.  (Slow clap eye roll...)

[M20F]

I would echo the comment about glasses.  If I wear my sun glasses it is noticeably louder/worse with my A20’s then with my regular glasses. 

My ears are shot from a lot of years of AC560 time with no protection, John Deere ear, and a lot of cargo jet ramp time with no protection.  I struggle to hear and probably need to get aids but find the A20’s good and the 3D audio in the GMA350 really helps.  

[ilovecornfields]

36 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

This is a B.S. exercise.  So much goes into a lifetime of hearing impact and you are going to blame ANR headsets for your hearing woes?  Dick.Ric.U.Lous.  The number of hours you fly per year is peanuts UNLESS you are a professional pilot.  G.A.?  Give me a break on ANR is ruining your hearing and causing you tennitis.  Whole lot of idiocy.  Let me know how your class action works out.  (Slow clap eye roll...)

Thanks. That was really helpful and adds significantly to the discussion.

[Eight8Victor]

Same topic over at the Jet Careers site a couple of years ago...interesting read.

https://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/anr-headsets-and-tinnitus.232480/

[MB65E]

12 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Ok, you guys are going to call me crazy.

So after purchaseing a Rocket i started to wonder about what sort of headsets to get for it.  I decided to compare 2 different sets I already had.

 

The first I tried as the David clark x11 with ANR.  I thought it was pretty good.

 

The second was the bose QC35 with the ufly mic.  I was certain it was going to be completely ineffective.  To my surprise, it completely surpassed the DC x11.   I have put 4 of them in my aircraft.

I fly with the qc35s/UFm in a light jet, they are awesome!! I like the fact you can leave the ANR off, because with it on you can not hear ambient noises at all in the cabin. 

I was just thinking how bad my boseX are with noise. This got me thinking what headset to bring to Oshkosh. Love my DC’s but can’t input music easily. You’ve found the 35’s work well then in the rocket? My E is really loud...

Good Chat!

-Matt

[ArtVandelay]

A20s will allow certain frequencies through, that’s why you can hear the gear horn or voices. Also anything that touches the headset will transmit noise bypassing the NR circuitry. So glasses, hats, cords, and seat (headrest), oxygen masks, etc should be carefully adjusted.
I don’t have any problem with takeoffs and increased noise levels.



Tom

[Guest]

9 hours ago, RogueOne said:

This is a B.S. exercise.  So much goes into a lifetime of hearing impact and you are going to blame ANR headsets for your hearing woes?  Dick.Ric.U.Lous.  The number of hours you fly per year is peanuts UNLESS you are a professional pilot.  G.A.?  Give me a break on ANR is ruining your hearing and causing you tennitis.  Whole lot of idiocy.  Let me know how your class action works out.  (Slow clap eye roll...)

Where did you read about the class action suit in this thread?

Clarence

[DXB]

A few potentially helpful points from a hearing physiology perspective. 

- What @Jim Peace is experiencing after flights his their ANR headsets is a temporary threshold shift - a reversible hearing loss from noise exposure.  It is a mild version of the temporary deafness experienced by solders after an explosion, which typically also has lifelong hearing effects. 

- Temporary threshold shifts are a serious business, in that they are not entirely temporary - there is likely some small amount of inner ear damage  that is permanent each time, and so these events are cumulatively damaging.

-The high frequency sensorineural hearing loss that results from noise exposure first becomes noticeable only after a tremendous amount of inner ear damage has already accumulated. I.e. there is a lot of reserve in the system, so a lot of the initial damage early in ones life appeared to have no consequence at the time.  Those rock concerts we went to in high school and college have a price that is not paid until later in life. 

-Once there is measurable high frequency sensorineural hearing loss, it is  critical to use the best hearing protection - any more damage, and the drop off in hearing will be precipitous.  This is of course of particular concern when it appears in a younger person.  Don't just use the best protection at the gun range but also use it when mowing the lawn, using the table saw, or doing other activities we don't think of as very noisy.

-Hearing loss in old age is not inevitable - there are 90 year olds with  near normal hearing and others at the opposite end of the spectrum are nearly deaf, despite similar amounts of lifelong noise exposure.  Genetic predisposition to hearing loss is common, poorly understood, and plays a big factor.

-Those with genetic predisposition are particularly vulnerable to rapid drop-offs in their hearing after the problems first appear  - the importance of hearing protection cannot be overemphasized in those folks - protection will slow down the loss but cannot stop it. 

-Most tinnitus  is a direct result of high frequency sensorineural hearing loss - in crude terms, there is brain circuitry used for processing high pitched noise that is normally suppressed by normal function of inner ear hair cells - when some of that hair cell function is lost, a kind of phantom high pitched noise is perceived when it is quiet. Added background noise to stimulate the remaining hair cells is then needed to suppress the tinnitus.  

I'm not exactly sure what is about ANR that causes a problem, but if it is indeed creating a temporary threshold shift, I would discontinue using it.  I have all of the same problems (temporary threshold shifts after flying, chronic tinnitus, high frequency hearing loss appearing in my mid-40s, and a clear genetic predisposition). I also have some clinical level understanding of hearing physiology and am happy to help interpret anyone's audiogram if they want to send me a copy.  I personally use Clarity Alofts  (same basic idea as Halos)  with the fattest earpieces, but I will look into getting the custom molds made at Oshkosh this year.  @gsxrpilot do you happen to recall what vendor made yours?  

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by DXB

[Andy95W]

I think Dev is saying that with or without ANR, we're all screwed.  My wife already thinks I need hearing aids.

Edit- Since I'm not sure if @EricJ, below, got my odd sense of humor, I'm adding this: 

Second edit- I just got that I didn't get EricJ's response.  Duh. 

Wife also thinks I'm losing my sense of humor.  She might be right on both counts.

[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I think Dev is saying that with or without ANR, we're all screwed.  My wife already thinks I need hearing aids.

What?

I think it's funny that some people who are exposed to large noise and sound energy sources for long periods of time want to blame the thing that cancels the noise.   Wut?

The net energy incident on your ear with ANR is much less than without it.  In an aircraft you don't want the ANR to cancel everything since you want to be able to detect audible alarms, engine noises, etc., enough to be able to respond to them.

I think that's why we get ANR (active noise reduction) instead of ANC (active noise cancelling).   I've worn some headsets (entertainment headsets in business/first in airliners) that were pretty close to ANC.   An attendant got perturbed with me because I'd giggle when she tried to speak to me because I couldn't hear a damn thing but the entertainment audio and it was funny to watch her lips move while she trying to talk to me.

You don't want that when outside audible clues can save your butt, so I suspect it is an intentional design decision in aviation headsets to not do as much reduction in the mid-upper frequencies where alarms and warnings and clanking sounds live.   So that energy will still come through, and, unfortunately, that spectrum is often where tinnitus lives, too.

My tinnitus is around 7-8kHz, precedes my use of ANR, and is well outside the low-mid frequency range where ANR does most of its work in aviation headsets.

The signal processing for ANR is in many ways similar to channel equalization for wireless communication systems, so that the bits get through more reliably.   It's not anything super-esoteric in the industry, doing a "better" job of cancelling is definitely feasible and is not a limitation of the technology itself.   I think it is intentionally held back in aviation headsets so no headset manufacturer gets any fingers pointed at them for losses related to not being able to hear the warning horn that the Trunk Monkey has been released in the cabin.

And while I'm at it, if you have tinnitus and somebody tries to sell you something that they claim will cancel it, run far away.   That requires feedback from within your skull, so unless it comes with an implant that goes in the part of your brain responsible for auditory sensation, it ain't gonna work.

*trips and falls while getting off soap box*

[Eight8Victor]

51 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I think Dev is saying that with or without ANR, we're all screwed.  My wife already thinks I need hearing aids.

What? Can you speak up a little?