Panel upgrade on '62 M20C

[Buckeyechuck]

I'm scheduled for my ADS B install in early April.  Since joining MS I now have caught the bug. I'm seriously considering a panel upgrade. I currently have an older Narco audio panel, Genave marker beacon, two King 155's, a Cessna ADF, King transponder and a boat anchor loran. Considering a Garmin GNS530W, keep the 155 that has GS, Stratus ADS B, and new combi audio panel with built in intercom and MB. Get rid of 155 no GS, ADF (shouldn't need with the 530), King transponder marker beacon, audio panel, and loran. I currently do not have an autopilot. Considering the TruTrack or Garmin maybe next year, once approved. So should I install the G5 HSI, or a GI106?  Will the G5 work with the TruTrack?  Do I need to include the GAD29B in the initial install or is it upgradable when I install the autopilot?  What's the best choice for audio panel. I'm already putting more $$$ into this than the plane will ever be worth. Appreciate any help. Oh by the way, will probably do an I Fly GPS OR Foreflight for ADS B in. 

[steingar]

Put in the best boxes you can.  I didn't, and by the time it was all done getting a better IFR GPS would have been a negligible increase.  Do be prepared to spend big $$$ on installation, more than for the boxes.  And go to the BEST shop you can find.  There's a shop at Clermont County I've heard good things about, not that far from you.  And do be prepare dot be patient.  The avionics shops are all full of ADSB installations, and most of them aren't that good at returning calls.  Be persistent and patient.  I wasn't, and boy did I ever pay the price.

[Buckeyechuck]

We are blessed with a very good shop right here at RZT. Very meticulous, constantly busy which says a lot. 

[Bob_Belville]

5 hours ago, Buckeyechuck said:

I'm scheduled for my ADS B install in early April.  Since joining MS I now have caught the bug. I'm seriously considering a panel upgrade. I currently have an older Narco audio panel, Genave marker beacon, two King 155's, a Cessna ADF, King transponder and a boat anchor loran. Considering a Garmin GNS530W, keep the 155 that has GS, Stratus ADS B, and new combi audio panel with built in intercom and MB. Get rid of 155 no GS, ADF (shouldn't need with the 530), King transponder marker beacon, audio panel, and loran. I currently do not have an autopilot. Considering the TruTrack or Garmin maybe next year, once approved. So should I install the G5 HSI, or a GI106?  Will the G5 work with the TruTrack?  Do I need to include the GAD29B in the initial install or is it upgradable when I install the autopilot?  What's the best choice for audio panel. I'm already putting more $$$ into this than the plane will ever be worth. Appreciate any help. Oh by the way, will probably do an I Fly GPS OR Foreflight for ADS B in. 

What's the cost difference between the 530 and the GTN boxes? As Steingar points out the installation labor cost is a large factor and installing 20+ year old technology will cost about as much as installing the latest and greatest. 5 years out that might well seem like a bad way to save a few AMU. 

[MIm20c]

23 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

What's the cost difference between the 530 and the GTN boxes? As Steingar points out the installation labor cost is a large factor and installing 20+ year old technology will cost about as much as installing the latest and greatest. 5 years old that might well seem like a bad way to save a few AMU. 

The large screen is nice but I agree with the above. If the shop is a Garmin dealer they probably only pay ~$500 more for a new 650 than you could source a 530w for.  Might make for a better “investment”...

[Buckeyechuck]

If I understand the terminology a GTN650 is about 2.5 AMU above the GNS530W I have sourced. I liked the bigger screen but not sure about difference in technology. For instance, will my stormscope talk to these boxes, what about ADS B in. I understand the 650 touch screen, rubber band technology, etc. really in the dark for the most part but want the biggest bang for the AMU’s. 

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Buckeyechuck said:

If I understand the terminology a GTN650 is about 2.5 AMU above the GNS530W I have sourced. I liked the bigger screen but not sure about difference in technology. For instance, will my stormscope talk to these boxes, what about ADS B in. I understand the 650 touch screen, rubber band technology, etc. really in the dark for the most part but want the biggest bang for the AMU’s. 

I have a 750 which is the same technology as the 650. Both are the latest generation from Garmin, less than 10 years since introduction. Garmin continues to update features like visual approach, FS 510 connectivity, voice commands, etc., etc.. I think it's safe to say the GTN boxes will continue to get better where the GNS will be supported but no longer enhanced. Maybe @donkayewill chime in, I have never had a 530...

I think if you weigh the difference in cost and features between the GNS 530W and the GTN650 it will be easy to justify the 650. At that point the question is 650 or 750. ISTM the 650 is often a 2nd GPS in a great panel where a 750 is the primary. Other 650s are in panels where space does not allow a 750 or in cases like @Marauderwhere there's one or more Aspens or Garmin G500 MFDs.

[Marauder]

If I understand the terminology a GTN650 is about 2.5 AMU above the GNS530W I have sourced. I liked the bigger screen but not sure about difference in technology. For instance, will my stormscope talk to these boxes, what about ADS B in. I understand the 650 touch screen, rubber band technology, etc. really in the dark for the most part but want the biggest bang for the AMU’s. 

I have a 650. To answer your questions, it depends.

If you went with a Garmin 345 transponder, weather and traffic will show up on the 650. I have a Lynx 9000 and although traffic shows up, weather doesn’t.

The 650 can take an input from a WX-500 Stormscope and display it.

You will need to research what will be compatible and what won’t be. I have flown in 430/530 equipped planes and the GTN is way easier to program. You can get good at it but it is not as intuitive as the GTN.

Stormscope WX-500 on my GTN.

Traffic on 650 being fed by Lynx 9000.



Traffic warning sent by GTN. Lynx info above it.






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[Marauder]

As Bob B pointed out. A 750 can show a lot more information due to the larger screen. With a dual Aspen setup and weather also displaying on the Lynx, my 650 is relegated to a data entry device (loading frequencies, approaches, etc. ). The flight planning stuff is now down through the FlightStream 510 which eliminates even more button pushing on the 650.

If you don’t have an alternative display like an iPad, Aspen, G500 or TXI, 796, it makes sense to move up to the 750.

Everything I need for inflight is on the Aspens. I use the Lynx for close in traffic and quickly pulling up METARs and other weather products.

In this photo, the NEXRAD radar is being displayed on the MFD. As is the WX-500 overlay (look at the lower left corner) and traffic. That is the beauty of these larger displays.



Here is a flight back from Jersey. The red circle to the right is a Trump TFR. Philly also wasn’t letting anyone through the Bravo, so we were stacked up like flies around a fresh turd. That is why I love the display right in front of me. Everything I need to know is there.



Here is a NOTAM being pulled up on the Lynx.



I would try to fly in planes that are equipped with these different options and see what works for you. You can end up spending a lot of money on a panel and not get full benefit out of it.


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[Bob_Belville]

Yeah, as Chris says here's traffic on the moving map (GTN 750) 

Weather on the GTN 750 and on the Stormscope (WX 900). You might see why/how I could go through a line of weather thanks to the WX900.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Buckeyechuck said:

If I understand the terminology a GTN650 is about 2.5 AMU above the GNS530W I have sourced. I liked the bigger screen but not sure about difference in technology. For instance, will my stormscope talk to these boxes, what about ADS B in. I understand the 650 touch screen, rubber band technology, etc. really in the dark for the most part but want the biggest bang for the AMU’s. 

Whenever people look at used equipment I just like to mention that most shops will bid out a 650 in the high 9’s. However, they still have a profit on that unit before install. That extra 1k or whatever helps with the profit margin.  If you have a lead on a used 530w for less than 8k that’s probably a good way to go. 

[donkaye]

Since the latest system update, the GTN  650 is like a mini GTN 750.  You can select the type of keyboard you want through a simple selection.  No doubt about it, I am pro Garmin, the reason being that if you have a panel made up of products from one manufacturer that you can depend upon,  then not only is interfacing simple, but upgrading is much easier.  A simple example of that is the ease and cost benefit of upgrading the G500 to the G500 TXi.  Mine was done in less than a week.

While I want a fair deal, I am done penny pinching when it comes to outfitting my airplane.  I am constantly reading on this forum and BeechTalk about all the issues people have when they try to save a few dollars and buy from multiple vendors and wonder why everything doesn't work together.  As a former electrical engineer, it's not surprising to me at all.

In your lifetime is a $2,500 saving worth not having the best?  While the GNS 530/430 were state of the art in their time, they really don't hold a candle to the newer GTN 750/650 that Garmin seems to update on a regular basis.

I've been flying for over 50 years now, and still get a thrill every time I fly my upgraded panel.  I hope you choose to do the same.

[Bob_Belville]

36 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Whenever people look at used equipment I just like to mention that most shops will bid out a 650 in the high 9’s. However, they still have a profit on that unit before install. That extra 1k or whatever helps with the profit margin.  If you have a lead on a used 530w for less than 8k that’s probably a good way to go. 

Do I understand your point? You're saying a GTN 650 is not worth 1 AMU more than a GNS 530W?

[Buckeyechuck]

So the problem is, if I go with the new GTN650 that almost forces a Garmin 345 transponder in order to get ads b in on the 650, or can I get that from Foreflight. I don't think I can get that from a stratus to the 650. I plan to add the second G5 with autopilot later, since it's not part of the stack. So my decision ends up 530 vs 650 and then determine what else is needed to maximize what info I can get into that box from other stuff I have or would be stupid not to add. 

[Marauder]

So the problem is, if I go with the new GTN650 that almost forces a Garmin 345 transponder in order to get ads b in on the 650, or can I get that from Foreflight. I don't think I can get that from a stratus to the 650. I plan to add the second G5 with autopilot later, since it's not part of the stack. So my decision ends up 530 vs 650 and then determine what else is needed to maximize what info I can get into that box from other stuff I have or would be stupid not to add. 

Having seen both in action, I’d take the 650 over the 530 any day. Get the 345 and you can port weather and traffic over to Foreflight. Only wrinkle I could see is if Boeing decides to change their relationship with Garmin and not support FF any longer (doubtful).


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[MIm20c]

11 hours ago, Buckeyechuck said:

I currently do not have an autopilot. Considering the TruTrack or Garmin maybe next year, once approved. So should I install the G5 HSI, or a GI106?  Will the G5 work with the TruTrack?  Do I need to include the GAD29B in the initial install or is it upgradable when I install the autopilot?  What's the best choice for audio panel. 

- both AP systems will be stellar with the Garmin commanding a $4k premium (not including G5’s)

- the 106 is a great unit and was trouble free for us (besides the gps light burning out) for over 2k hrs. However, it takes a lot of wiring and is IMO superseded with the G5 especially if the plane is lacking an HSI. 

- You need to install the gad29b to have the G5 communicate with the 530w or 650.

- the 8000bt or 450 a/b would be my choice. 

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Do I understand your point? You're saying a GTN 650 is not worth 1 AMU more than a GNS 530W?

No, I was just implying the ~1amu of hidden profit might be added to the install of a used unit. I really don’t like installing used equipment but with the 430/530 (if he got a really good deal) they can easily be updated to the ifd units. 

2 hours ago, Buckeyechuck said:

So the problem is, if I go with the new GTN650 that almost forces a Garmin 345 transponder in order to get ads b in on the 650, or can I get that from Foreflight. I don't think I can get that from a stratus to the 650. I plan to add the second G5 with autopilot later, since it's not part of the stack. So my decision ends up 530 vs 650 and then determine what else is needed to maximize what info I can get into that box from other stuff I have or would be stupid not to add. 

None of the panel mounted navigators will display adsb info off a stratus or similar portable unit. 

Two panel mount options:

- buy a Garmin 345 / 88 or a L3 9000. 

- buy a portable Garmin 660 with mount and a gdl 50r or 39. 

I would not spend the money on a 345 if you are planning on displaying it on the 530w.  

[gsxrpilot]

The Professor, @donkaye unquestionably has the best panel ever installed in a Mooney, (including the new Ultras rolling out of the factory). And there certainly is something to be said for the turn key nature of a single vendor panel.

But it's not the only way. My panel was done for less than 25% of the cost of Don's. I only have two Garmin units in the airplane, a G5 and a GDL69a. Everything else is Aspen, Avidyne, BendixKing, PSEngineering, JPI, NavWorx, etc, etc. But everything talks to everything. Integration was simple as all these different vendors adhere to the same standards for communication. Also they all take my phone calls when I have a question. Garmin won't talk to me, but want me to talk to the avionics shop.

The IFD540 and the PMA450b were installed by me. I just backed out the old Garmin box and slid in the new modern unit and done. That saved a few thousand dollars right there.

Avidyne is always running specials that include a free transponder/ADS-B if you buy their GPS. Meaning I didn't spend any $$$ on a new transponder or ADS-B in and out. I get Traffic, Weather, and SiriusXM on the IFD540 along with Synthetic Vision, Bluetooth and Wifi, all at no charge and no extra boxes to install. (The free SiriusXM is an anomaly)

My panel isn't as nice as Don's. But it will fly a full coupled approach to minimums, and has nearly all the other features as well. The transponder, ADS-B in/out, and other stuff is in the tail with the IFD540 running as the head unit. It makes for a clean uncluttered panel.

There are quite a few members on this forum who can speak to the simple utility but full feature list, of this panel. Just another option to consider.

[Marauder]

So the problem is, if I go with the new GTN650 that almost forces a Garmin 345 transponder in order to get ads b in on the 650, or can I get that from Foreflight. I don't think I can get that from a stratus to the 650. I plan to add the second G5 with autopilot later, since it's not part of the stack. So my decision ends up 530 vs 650 and then determine what else is needed to maximize what info I can get into that box from other stuff I have or would be stupid not to add. 

 

One other thing on the topic of integration. As gsxrpilot points out, this stuff will integrate to some level. Buying all Garmin will guarantee everything will integrate but will typically cost you more if you want additional features.

 

I’ll give you an example. I fly the corridor between Washington & Philly quite a bit, especially during the summer on my way down to lower Delaware and Ocean City Maryland. On VFR days, it is jam packed with VFR planes doing the same thing. And then on top of everything else, you have Philly arrivals descending through that area.

 

I wanted an ADS-B solution but also TAS capability. I also wanted a unit that also had an internal GPS and wasn’t dependent on my GTN. The corridor is ironically a non-mandate area and I expect there will be many non-compliant planes still trans versing the area after January 2020.

 

I found that you can purchase a version of the Garmin 345 with an internal GPS. Installed price at the time was $8500. It was not however TAS capable. To get that capability, I would need to add a GTS 800 TAS. That box is another $10k plus installation.

 

I found that the L-3 9000+ installed, with antenna, was $10k. The L-3 has an internal GPS, has TAS and is able to show everything on its own display.

 

Trade offs?

 

I see TIS-B and TAS targets on the GTN.

I don’t see weather products on the GTN.

The L-3 integrates nicely with my Aspens. All traffic and weather products display on the Aspens as well as on the L-3’s own display.

 

Side benefit. L-3 manufactures the WX-500. So, my WX-500 also displays on my 9000+ in addition to the GTN and the Aspens.

 

There are some real benefits to an all Garmin suite. There are also some real costs associated with it. I think Don mentioned he has over $100k in his panel. For a Bravo that he intends to keep, makes all the sense in the world. But like Paul, my panel was considerably cheaper than Don’s and I have functionality that anyone could want in a Mooney.

 

 

 

 

 

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[donkaye]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

There are some real benefits to an all Garmin suite. There are also some real costs associated with it. I think Don mentioned he has over $100k in his panel. For a Bravo that he intends to keep, makes all the sense in the world. But like Paul, my panel was considerably cheaper than Don’s and I have functionality that anyone could want in a Mooney.

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One of the most important Garmin Traffic benefits to me is TargetTrend, the ability to see relative motion instead of absolute motion.  For example, when traversing the LA Basin with 30 targets on screen, a quick glance at the screen will tell me immediately if any one of them is a threat.  Garmin's active traffic solutions are expensive, and ADS-B provides a good solution for the most part, but in those cases where you're based at uncontrolled fields or go into uncontrolled fields, active traffic onboard will solve most of the issues except when the target aircraft has no transponder.

[M20F]

Personally I don’t see the advantage of a 750 over a 650/Aspen or iPad combo.  It is a lot of money for a screen and nothing else.  A 750 has no features other then a bigger screen and slightly easier interface (debatable but a FlightSteam fixes that). 

I certainly given the choice would do a 650 over a 530. 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

 A 750 has no features other then a bigger screen and slightly easier interface (debatable but a FlightSteam fixes that). 

Actually, it does.  When combined with the GMA 35 or 35C, Telligence brings a whole new dimension to GPS control.

[M20F]

10 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Actually, it does.  When combined with the GMA 35 or 35C, Telligence brings a whole new dimension to GPS control.

Adds more stuff to a single point of failure and you really are going to have to work hard to explain why it is any better then a 650 and a GMA350. 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

Adds more stuff to a single point of failure and you really are going to have to work hard to explain why it is any better then a 650 and a GMA350. 

That's not how it works. Come with us to the 21st century and solid state electronics. There are plenty of failsafe modes where remote units such as transponder, audio panel, etc, keep working even if the 750 goes down. Secondly they just don't fail like instruments reliant on spinning bearings and sucking on little plastic tubing running all over the airplane. 

[M20F]

19 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

That's not how it works. Come with us to the 21st century and solid state electronics. There are plenty of failsafe modes where remote units such as transponder, audio panel, etc, keep working even if the 750 goes down. Secondly they just don't fail like instruments reliant on spinning bearings and sucking on little plastic tubing running all over the airplane. 

I am in 21st Century and have quite a few 21st Century things (discussed on the forum) in my plane which has a 19th century electrical system (as does yours).  So one I am not a big fan of all electric and nor single sources of vital things. Electric is better than vacuum for sure, but vacuum is a separate and discrete system that provides redundancy for very little cost.   

I have nothing against the 750 I just believe the dual 430 set up the OP has is very safe and gives a lot of options as is.  Replacing one 430 with a 650 is a good idea as well.  I don’t though see any value in the 750 other then a larger screen which there a lot cheaper and better ways of getting a bigger screen.  

Let me know how you change the remote transponder or audio panel when the 750 fails.  

[gsxrpilot]

8 minutes ago, M20F said:

I am in 21st Century and have quite a few 21st Century things (discussed on the forum) in my plane which has a 19th century electrical system (as does yours).  So one I am not a big fan of all electric and nor single sources of vital things. Electric is better than vacuum for sure, but vacuum is a separate and discrete system that provides redundancy for very little cost.   

I have nothing against the 750 I just believe the dual 430 set up the OP has is very safe and gives a lot of options as is.  Replacing one 430 with a 650 is a good idea as well.  I don’t though see any value in the 750 other then a larger screen which there a lot cheaper and better ways of getting a bigger screen.  

Let me know how you change the remote transponder or audio panel when the 750 fails.  

I have an IFD540 but its the same tech as the 750. With both coms and transponder using the IFD540, if it fails, they obviously can't be changed. Regarding the transponder, it almost never needs to be changed in flight and it's never an emergency anyway. I can just let ATC know the situation. It won't be an issue. The transponder will maintain the code unless the transponder its self is shut off for a period of time then it goes 1200. A reboot on the other hand, brings back up the last code. So it's actually very resilient. Regarding comms, I have a KX165 that is my com2. But even without it, again, no need to change. I can stay with the current freq and get back on the ground. By the way, I'm at over 500 hours on the IFD540 without a single hiccup. I expect it will last the life of the airplane without any issues. You can't say the same for vacuum systems or the instruments that rely on them.

All of my electronic kit is backed up with batteries. I tested this with my Aspen about a month ago. While in flight, I switched the EFIS master off. The Aspen immediately reverts to battery power. Then I got busy with other things and forgot about it. Almost an hour later I noticed the battery time counting down. I still had quite a bit of time, but noticed the symbol. I switched on the EFIS master and the battery is now recharging. It had been working fine the entire time.

A properly configured all electric airplane has much more redundancy than any vacuum system can provide where a single hole in a plastic tube somewhere and the vacuum instruments immediately roll over and die.

I will agree with you in that there are cheaper ways to get a big screen. The best way is to install an IFD440 and then use the free IFD100 app on your iPad to provide the large screen. But getting rid of the vacuum system and going all electric is the way to go for best reliability and redundancy.