Got into ice today

[ragedracer1977]

Flew over to San Diego.  Forecast said broken around 5k with tops around 9.  Kept asking for pirep on icing,  but there had been no reports, and I was flying the same inbound route as all the jets into SAN and the corporate guys into MYF.  Was getting vectored to the ILS and it was a lot more overcast than broken.  Went into the clouds about 8500.  Started picking up ice about 7k. I knew a 180 was going to take me as long (or longer) than getting out of the bottom so I asked for an expedited descent.  Controller vectored me a different direction and cleared me down to 5. Picked up about a 1/4” of rime on the leading edges in about 5 minutes.  I was in and out of the bases at 5, but not accumulating more and it was starting to melt.  

It was an interesting experience.  First time I’ve ever seen legitimate ice.  If I didn’t know the bases were so close, I would have turned around and gone home.  

it was really nice having another pilot sitting right seat, dialing radios, pushing buttons, etc so I could focus on flying.  

[carusoam]

Five of the most important teaching minutes in aviation school..!

That Stuff collects quickly.

thanks for sharing the experience, Brice.

Best regards,

-a-

[Moh]

Thanks for sharing, and glad you are safe... is your plane equipped with any anti-icing measures?


Thank you
Mohamed

[ragedracer1977]

31 minutes ago, Moh said:

Thanks for sharing, and glad you are safe... is your plane equipped with any anti-icing measures?


Thank you
Mohamed

Pitot heat, carb heat, and windscreen defrost. So, not really lol.  

[SantosDumont]

My plane has been in the hangar all month because of low temps and I have a zero tolerance policy for icing.  The upside is that I’m already halfway to A-list on SWA and it’s only Feb. 

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Flew over to San Diego.  Forecast said broken around 5k with tops around 9.  Kept asking for pirep on icing,  but there had been no reports, and I was flying the same inbound route as all the jets into SAN and the corporate guys into MYF.  Was getting vectored to the ILS and it was a lot more overcast than broken.  Went into the clouds about 8500.  Started picking up ice about 7k. I knew a 180 was going to take me as long (or longer) than getting out of the bottom so I asked for an expedited descent.  Controller vectored me a different direction and cleared me down to 5. Picked up about a 1/4” of rime on the leading edges in about 5 minutes.  I was in and out of the bases at 5, but not accumulating more and it was starting to melt.  

It was an interesting experience.  First time I’ve ever seen legitimate ice.  If I didn’t know the bases were so close, I would have turned around and gone home.  

it was really nice having another pilot sitting right seat, dialing radios, pushing buttons, etc so I could focus on flying.  

Good lord, you sound calm about it!  Geez, whatever drugs you're taking, I want some of those too!  

They STILL haven't found my seat cushion from when I ran into icing... 

[Jim Peace]

4 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

My plane has been in the hangar all month because of low temps and I have a zero tolerance policy for icing.  The upside is that I’m already halfway to A-list on SWA and it’s only Feb. 

winner winner chicken dinner.....

[Jim Peace]

 

6 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

 Forecast said broken around 5k with tops around 9.  Kept asking for pirep on icing,  but there had been no reports, and I was flying the same inbound route as all the jets into SAN and the corporate guys into MYF.  Was getting vectored to the ILS and it was a lot more overcast than broken.  Went into the clouds about 8500.  Started picking up ice about 7k. I knew a 180 was going to take me as long (or longer) than getting out of the bottom so I asked for an expedited descent.  Controller vectored me a different direction and cleared me down to 5. Picked up about a 1/4” of rime on the leading edges in about 5 minutes.  I was in and out of the bases at 5, but not accumulating more and it was starting to melt.  

It was an interesting experience.  First time I’ve ever seen legitimate ice.  If I didn’t know the bases were so close, I would have turned around and gone home.  

it was really nice having another pilot sitting right seat, dialing radios, pushing buttons, etc so I could focus on flying.  

Temps this week hovering around 60 ish degrees or colder at the surface in SoCal all week.  let's assume 61 which is 16c.  You intentionally fly into the clouds at 8500 feet which I can only assume was approximately 0c.  We can pick up ice with temps indicating up to 10c.  This is not what you want to be doing in a 50 year old lawnmower with wings.  The worst ice in the USA that I have seen has been in SoCal.  Was this trip so important that you risk your life and the rest of us having to pay higher insurance rates?

[Niko182]

18 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

 

Temps this week hovering around 60 ish degrees or colder at the surface in SoCal all week.  let's assume 61 which is 16c.  You intentionally fly into the clouds at 8500 feet which I can only assume was approximately 0c.  We can pick up ice with temps indicating up to 10c.  This is not what you want to be doing in a 50 year old lawnmower with wings.  The worst ice in the USA that I have seen has been in SoCal.  Was this trip so important that you risk your life and the rest of us having to pay higher insurance rates?

I don't think he intentionally flew into ice. You're making it sound like he knew there was ice and he flew in it on purpose.

[mark21m20c]

The jets most likely were not picking up ice (no pireps) going into san. If I had ice on the wing in a mooney  I would add --- kts  to approach speed.

 

[ragedracer1977]

2 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

Was this trip so important that you risk your life and the rest of us having to pay higher insurance rates?

Yes, it was.  Just like every other trip where I decide to get in my plane.  If I wasn’t willing to risk my life and the rest of you having to pay higher insurance rates, I wouldn’t even have a pilot certificate.

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, mark21m20c said:

The jets most likely were not picking up ice (no pireps) going into san. If I had ice on the wing in a mooney  I would add --- kts  to approach speed.

 

What would keep everyone else from picking up ice? I thought I was being overly cautious by soliciting pireps from other guys going the the same route and altitudes.  I also did the math the other guy did and decided that while ice was possible, the OAT was high enough that it should have been just above 0c at the tops and quite above 0c very quickly in the descent.  The clouds were also reported as broken to scattered, which did not turn out to be accurate.  

Im certainly not happy I got into icing, but I did my due diligence to mitigate the possibility.  As it turned out, I was wrong.  And Im certainly learning how to better avoid it next time.

 

[Marauder]

 
Temps this week hovering around 60 ish degrees or colder at the surface in SoCal all week.  let's assume 61 which is 16c.  You intentionally fly into the clouds at 8500 feet which I can only assume was approximately 0c.  We can pick up ice with temps indicating up to 10c.  This is not what you want to be doing in a 50 year old lawnmower with wings.  The worst ice in the USA that I have seen has been in SoCal.  Was this trip so important that you risk your life and the rest of us having to pay higher insurance rates?

Jim - if you’re worried about your insurance rates, it’s guys like these that are the problem:

https://youtu.be/wIvjaq1rc44

I loved how he introduced a “secondary minimum”.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[N201MKTurbo]

Brice,

1/4 inch of rime will not bring a Mooney down, but that’s about as much as you want.

Ive been in your situation before where you have to decide to continue or return. It can be tough. There is a lot of factors to consider in a short time. Welcome to the club. You are becoming a real instrument pilot.

Almost any time you fly in clouds with OATs below 0 C you can expect to pick up some ice no matter what the forecast says. 

Usually, but not always, if there is no forecast of icing the rate of accumulation will be pretty slow.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

What would keep everyone else from picking up ice? I thought I was being overly cautious by soliciting pireps from other guys going the the same route and altitudes.  I also did the math the other guy did and decided that while ice was possible, the OAT was high enough that it should have been just above 0c at the tops and quite above 0c very quickly in the descent.  The clouds were also reported as broken to scattered, which did not turn out to be accurate.  

Im certainly not happy I got into icing, but I did my due diligence to mitigate the possibility.  As it turned out, I was wrong.  And Im certainly learning how to better avoid it next time.

 

I have no idea what the conditions were like during your flight. Having flown in small planes in the ice bucket of MI for the past 20 years I can say icing pireps are seldom used unless the ice is serious for the heavy metal. Did you report the amount of ice/altitude during the flight?

I normally look at the forecast and if the conditions are ripe I consider that known icing. However, I know many individuals that have inadvertent icing systems that consider themselves legal unless the pierep is right on top of them. 

My only point is be careful and don’t always rely on pireps. I think the situation would have been different (more memorable) if you were climbing through the layer with the marginals powered C. 

[ragedracer1977]

I did file a Pirep.  I know that the big guys might not make a report, but I was actually asking approach, she was asking the guys on the same route and altitude and they were reporting negative 

[N201MKTurbo]

Sense the rules are so strict these days about ice, I think a lot of GA pilots may think a pirep is a confession that they broke the rules.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I did file a Pirep.  I know that the big guys might not make a report, but I was actually asking approach, she was asking the guys on the same route and altitude and they were reporting negative 

What did you report it as?

[ragedracer1977]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

What did you report it as?

Light rime

[Jim Peace]

4 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I don't think he intentionally flew into ice. You're making it sound like he knew there was ice and he flew in it on purpose.

There were clouds that he descended through at 8500.   He was on an IFR flight plan filed for 10,000 feet.  The temps were near zero at 8500..  I bet a million dollars that with all the weather socal has been getting that some sort of clouds were in the forecast.  

Oh wait here is the TAF he would have looked at for his departure, the surface reports were 15c at the surface.

TAF KSAN 171720Z 1718/1824 28015G25KT P6SM VCSH SCT045 BKN060 FM172100
          28022G31KT P6SM -SHRA BKN040 BKN060 FM181200 29010G22KT
          P6SM BKN040 FM181500 29008KT P6SM SCT040=

 

Here is his flight:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6716U/history/20190217/1615Z/KDVT/KMYF

It was crazy to fly the plane into these conditions.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

There were clouds that he descended through at 8500.   He was on an IFR flight plan filed for 10,000 feet.  The temps were near zero at 8500..  I bet a million dollars that with all the weather socal has been getting that some sort of clouds were in the forecast.  

Oh wait here is the TAF he would have looked at for his departure, the surface reports were 15c at the surface.

TAF KSAN 171720Z 1718/1824 28015G25KT P6SM VCSH SCT045 BKN060 FM172100
          28022G31KT P6SM -SHRA BKN040 BKN060 FM181200 29010G22KT
          P6SM BKN040 FM181500 29008KT P6SM SCT040=

 

Here is his flight:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6716U/history/20190217/1615Z/KDVT/KMYF

It was crazy to fly the plane into these conditions.

 

We should all just turn in our instrument ratings. Instrument flying is only for the airlines. We are just clogging up the system.

[Jim Peace]

11 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Kept asking for pirep on icing,  but there had been no reports, and I was flying the same inbound route as all the jets into SAN and the corporate guys into MYF.  

You need to understand that the lack of reports of ice does not mean that is not a crap load out there.  Many Jets (most) do not even have anti ice capability on the tails because we just do not pick up ice that easily with the speeds we fly and the aerodynamics of the plane.  And even if I did pick up ice and then removed it I am not necessarily going to make that report to ATC.  The reports that would be meaningful would have come from other single engine airplanes in the soup.  But you would hardly hear any up there being that they knew that a OAT of 0c and visible moisture has potential to kill them.

[Marauder]

Sense the rules are so strict these days about ice, I think a lot of GA pilots may think a pirep is a confession that they broke the rules.

I doubt the posse will come after you if file a PIREP for an inadvertent icing encounter. How are they going to know if you are FIKI equipped or not? Where it may get dicey is if you file a PIREP when you fly into forecasted icing and something bad happens. Especially if you say something like “yep, there is ice in those clouds, wish I had FIKI equipment.”


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[Jim Peace]

3 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

We should all just turn in our instrument ratings. Instrument flying is only for the airlines. We are just clogging up the system.

no way Jose.  I am saying that with a plane that does not have deice capability that you should not be in potential icing conditions.  Even single engine airplanes with it should probably not be in it unless they got caught with a truly bad forecast.  Never plan to be in the soup at 0c.....

Are you telling me that it does not make sense to do that?

[ragedracer1977]

To be honest, knowing what I know now, I would have just gone VFR and gone under everything.  Just how I came home.  My thought process was that there was a chance of icing, but with the temps at the tops being right at 0c, and rapidly increasing, it shouldn’t be an issue.  Further, I was unaware that jets don’t get ice because they go faster.  I thought I was being prudent by asking other pilots if they were getting ice at my altitude.  If they had said yes, I was fully prepared to either cancel IFR and go underneath or turn around and go home.