A good day ends badly in El Paso

[GDGR]

On 1/7/2019 at 7:24 AM, ArtVandelay said:

I’m surprised there wasn’t an overhaul done during all those reseals. My prop shop insisted they overhaul mine at over 10years/800 hours...115 million revolutions. They also deemed my governor not worth overhauling because of outdated parts and substituted a different one.


Tom

Canada is mandated to have prop overhauls every 10 years. My prop will have MAYBE 120 hours on it when it goes in for annual in March, and 10 years on the prop. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by GLJA

[Hank]

Man, that stinks! Sorry to hear that. 

[carusoam]

I’d fly with Jim C any day of the week!

His writing is soooo smooth and in control throughout this whole debacle... 

Way to go JC!

Thanks for sharing the videos...

My prop barely moves, when pushed and pulled on...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

3 hours ago, GLJA said:

Canada is mandated to have prop overhauls every 10 years. My prop will have MAYBE 120 hours on it when it goes in for annual in March, and 10 years on the prop. 

While we do have the 10 year mandate, I’ve never encountered the troubles I see posted here.

Clarence

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, jcovington said:

I haven't gotten cost figures yet but I believe that the cost will be the difference between what I paid for the overhaul and the exchange price. Of course, I'll still be out labor and shipping costs.

Jim

Wow, I would verify that before they start building a prop. This is a misunderstanding waiting to happen.

[GDGR]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

While we do have the 10 year mandate, I’ve never encountered the troubles I see posted here.

Clarence

Well, here’s hoping mine is not the first. Prop going in for the decade overhaul in March

[Hank]

20 minutes ago, GLJA said:

Well, here’s hoping mine is not the first. Prop going in for the decade overhaul in March

My 3-blade Hartzell was dynamically balanced at install by the PO in 2003. I had it checked at annual in Jan 2017, still at 0.01 ips. No overhaul, no service, no leaks. Been off twice to replace alternator belt.

Wonder what the reasoning is behind grinding on the blades every so often?

[drapo]

 

25 minutes ago, GLJA said:

Well, here’s hoping mine is not the first. Prop going in for the decade overhaul in March

Tell me how it goe$ !

Mine is due in September, in 10 years, it will have about 500hrs TT

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Hank said:

My 3-blade Hartzell was dynamically balanced at install by the PO in 2003. I had it checked at annual in Jan 2017, still at 0.01 ips. No overhaul, no service, no leaks. Been off twice to replace alternator belt.

Wonder what the reasoning is behind grinding on the blades every so often?

Ten years is the time now, it used to be 5, then 6 years.  Our national pilots association is trying to get Transport Canada to remove the requirement.

Clarence

[Gary0747]

On 1/7/2019 at 7:30 AM, jcovington said:

I looked back through the logs after I returned from our trip. The prop was overhauled at 40 hours (1996) after the plane was built. No reason given so I was surprised by that. It was all just annual inspections until 2008 when the engine was replaced and the first reseal completed.

That makes two overhauls and three reseals in the life of the prop (about 2200 hours total service).

Jim

This is very suspicious. Is it possible there was an undocumented prop strike with no engine work that the owners did not want to stand out in the log books due to potentially hurting resale?  You would have thought if it was just a bad seal that there would have been a Mooney warantee claim. Perhaps the prop has had alignment issues ever since this?  It is the kind of thing that should be flagged for more info in a pre buy inspection.  

[jcovington]

9 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

This is very suspicious. Is it possible there was an undocumented prop strike with no engine work that the owners did not want to stand out in the log books due to potentially hurting resale?  You would have thought if it was just a bad seal that there would have been a Mooney warantee claim. Perhaps the prop has had alignment issues ever since this?  It is the kind of thing that should be flagged for more info in a pre buy inspection.  

I have owned the plane since 2004. There were two previous owners that had the plane for 4 years each. There was a documented prop strike (taxi accident) from the first owner with an engine tear down/inspection (~1998). It is always possible that the earlier damage caused something now although it seems to me 20 years and about 2400 hours is a long time to wait for damage to show up. Who knows? It may be as good an explanation as anything at this point.

I am curious if the prop shop finds anything when they examine the prop this time. There wasn't anything found during the tear down last month.

Jim

[jcovington]

17 hours ago, carusoam said:

I’d fly with Jim C any day of the week!

Anthony, I would be honored to fly with you anytime. You might not want me to touch your prop right now. Props and I don't seem to be getting along too well at the moment .

Jim

[Gary0747]

Jim,

I am not a prop expert but with the possibility of two prop strikes on the same hub, on top of your latest episodes, I would be thinking seriously about a total replacement.   It might be worth talking directly with McCally about their input.   With all the recent guidance changes about “no lifting” and “no pushing” on their props it may be they know something not published about the possibility of easier damage to the hub than previously thought.

[jcovington]

1 minute ago, Gary0747 said:

I am not a prop expert but with the possibility of two prop strikes on the same hub, on top of your latest episodes, I would be thinking seriously about a total replacement.

There has only been one prop strike which occurred before I purchased the plane. This latest incident was not a prop strike. It was a failure of some sort that has caused the blades to loosen or lose snap rings. I may be a bit oversensitive about the prop strike misconception. That has been the first question I get from anyone seeing the pictures of the prop (including the FAA). I didn't hit anything so the engine doesn't need to be and hasn't been torn down for inspection.

Either way, the failed prop has been condemned and is being replaced.

Jim

[Gary0747]

Sorry, I was referring to the unusual log entry at 40 hours since new that you mentioned as not being clear at what happened. Not your recent incident at El Paso as that appears to be clearly analyzed and not a prop strike.  No offense intended 

[jcovington]

Gary

No offense taken. Sorry, if I came off strong in my reply. I missed your point in the first post. 

This whole incident has and continues to cause me a lot of stress. I am very concerned about how this is going to affect the future value of the plane not to mention the trips we have planned in the next few months. Someone buying the plane is certainly going to wonder why all the prop work on the plane in such a short period of time. I am considering adding a write up to the logs just to explain what really happened. 

I was told that this plane was used by Mooney as a demonstrator in 1996. I believe the plane was purchased by the first owner and then leased back to Mooney for about 6 months. At that point it was delivered to the new owner with a fresh paint job. My guess is that the prop was overhauled as part of that delivery. Just a guess on my part but does explain some of the early work logged on the plane. 

Jim

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, jcovington said:

Gary

No offense taken. Sorry, if I came off strong in my reply. I missed your point in the first post. 

This whole incident has and continues to cause me a lot of stress. I am very concerned about how this is going to affect the future value of the plane not to mention the trips we have planned in the next few months. Someone buying the plane is certainly going to wonder why all the prop work on the plane in such a short period of time. I am considering adding a write up to the logs just to explain what really happened. 

I was told that this plane was used by Mooney as a demonstrator in 1996. I believe the plane was purchased by the first owner and then leased back to Mooney for about 6 months. At that point it was delivered to the new owner with a fresh paint job. My guess is that the prop was overhauled as part of that delivery. Just a guess on my part but does explain some of the early work logged on the plane. 

Jim

I wouldn't worry about any value loss. Just make sure all of the work was documented, you have explanations of what happened. ANy educated buyer will see and understand what was done.

[EricJ]

21 hours ago, jcovington said:

Gary

No offense taken. Sorry, if I came off strong in my reply. I missed your point in the first post. 

This whole incident has and continues to cause me a lot of stress. I am very concerned about how this is going to affect the future value of the plane not to mention the trips we have planned in the next few months. Someone buying the plane is certainly going to wonder why all the prop work on the plane in such a short period of time. I am considering adding a write up to the logs just to explain what really happened. 

I was told that this plane was used by Mooney as a demonstrator in 1996. I believe the plane was purchased by the first owner and then leased back to Mooney for about 6 months. At that point it was delivered to the new owner with a fresh paint job. My guess is that the prop was overhauled as part of that delivery. Just a guess on my part but does explain some of the early work logged on the plane. 

Jim

Writing something short and informative doesn't hurt, but don't put it in the logs.   Just keep it with the airplane paperwork to give to whoever you sell the airplane to.

I don't think this will detract from the aircraft value at all.   Maintaining something should be a good thing, and finding and replacing a faulty part is not a negative.  I don't think there's any way to blame the issues on anything that would still be affecting the airplane when you sell it, once the replacement prop is on.

 

[jcovington]

Once again, I am going to try to close out this thread with results of the prop replacement. The prop arrived back in Georgia on March 7th and I picked up the plane on the 11th. We have put about 17 hours on the prop and so far no issues. Both blades are tight with very little movement.

When the prop arrived back at New Mexico Propeller they didn't think that the looseness of the blade was too bad. That surprised me. I don't have details on what was done to the prop but it looks like at least the hub housing was retained as that serial number didn't change. I can tell that the blades have been replaced but I don't know about the hub internals.

New Mexico Propeller stood behind their work and did not charge for the second service. I did have to pay for labor to remove the prop and shipping but that was my only cost. Overall, I am happy to have the plane back and my trust in the plane is growing. I feel like New Mexico Propeller did a good job on the prop and wouldn't have a problem using them again.

I hope I don't have to reopen this thread but if anything happens again with the prop I'll let everyone know.

Jim

 

[DonMuncy]

Glad you are going again, Jim.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm with @EricJ, this won't hurt the value of the airplane at all. If anything it enhances it. It's a flying airplane, that is well maintained. That's value right there.

[carusoam]

Great follow-up, JC!

Best regards,

-a-

[thinwing]

On 2/19/2019 at 11:57 AM, GLJA said:

Canada is mandated to have prop overhauls every 10 years. My prop will have MAYBE 120 hours on it when it goes in for annual in March, and 10 years on the prop. 

You only fly 12 hrs a year?

[GDGR]

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

You only fly 12 hrs a year?

I bought the plane in September. Flew it more from September til now than it’s flown in the last 8 years combined. 

[Cody Stallings]

On 2/19/2019 at 1:48 PM, jcovington said:

Looks like I was wrong about being finished with this thread. I can't tell everyone how sorry I am to reopen this saga.

I took the plane to Joey Cole in Dalton, GA yesterday for the annual inspection. I jokingly told him that if anything was wrong with the prop I didn't want to know about it. Joey called a few minutes ago and told me that the opposite blade that was undamaged in the initial loss of the snap ring is too loose. He says that the tip was moving about an inch when he was doing the compression check on the engine. Videos of the movement are attached.

Joey has called New Mexico Propeller this morning and they are standing behind their work. The prop has about 10 hours since the overhaul and has now failed. Just to recap the prop was resealed in Feb 2017, resealed in Feb 2018, lost a snap ring in December 2018 and has a loose blade in Feb 2019. Joey and New Mexico Propeller agree that something is wrong with the prop and it should be condemned at this point. I can purchase a new prop or New Mexico Propeller is offering to build an exchange prop from parts that they have on hand. I was assured that no parts from my old prop would be used in building the exchange prop. My choice is to accept the exchange prop as that will get us back in the air the fastest.

New Mexico Prop have begun the building of the exchange prop. Joey is boxing up the old prop to send back to New Mexico Prop for a failure analysis. I hope to find out what caused the failure and will let everyone know the outcome.

Jim

The excessive play like above happens when the thrust Bearings that are pressed into the hub aren’t fully seated. Over the 10hrs you operated that Propeller the rotation of the propeller an the centrifuged forces seated the bearing an opened up the Snap Ring to Carrier clearances. That blade just needs to be Re-Shimmed.

Very Cheap easy thing to do. Takes longer to remove the spinner than to do the actual job.

 

Now!!! The whole prop needs to be condemned your told. If that’s the case there would be no core value to that propeller. Also, if it is to be condemned you should be able to hang it on the wall at your place.

Shouldnt be shipped anywhere!!!!!

Your Propeller Sir, can have its blade Re-Shimmed an be sold as a Continued Time 10hr SOH Propeller........ Just food for thought.

Stuff like that gives me the RED ASS!!!!