Panel upgrade, looking for opinions

[Zulee]

I have fretted over updating my panel for years and now that it is sitting in the avionics shop I am being hit with a lot of valid and challenging self-induced questions.  So I decided I would turn to my Mooney family for some opinions, pros and cons around what I am about to share.  Besides, I am sure all of you are sitting around today wishing you had not had that second plate of food or sneaking back into the kitchen after your nap.

But the real reason I decided to post is due to so many pictures of Aspen installs in Mooney's but no one removed any of their round gauges...hence, the questions as to whether I am making the right decision.

Before I taxied up to the Avionics shop:

My 1981 J model had the "out of the factory" round gauges with the only upgrades being; GNS530W, panel mounted 696 (AirGizmo) and EDM700

Original plan before taxiing up to the Avionics shop:

Install GTX345, GMA345 and a DAC GDL31 GPSS...and I was also pondering installing the stratus USB charging ports

As time progressed and Aspen came out with their reduced price to include synthetic vision, EA100 blah blah blah...the questions and options began to fly:

So I decided to add another zero or two to my panel project and the Aspen is now on its way as well as the post purchase remorse.   

Well since the panel is torn out, why not include a Flight Stream 210...what the heck, let's do that too. 

What are your plans for backup AI, I honestly had not given that much thought because silly me, I "assumed" the Aspen would shed the need but WRONG, only with the MAX upgrade.  Ugh!! 

What about installing an Aspen MFD, nope my budget is shot! 

What about relocating the KI256?  I realize that is a possibility but I really wanted to shed my vacuum system (I expect a lot of "opinions" from you guys on this topic)

What about installing a G5 as your AI backup?  Hmmm, I really like that idea

So if you're installing the Aspen PFD with a Garmin G5 you know you can eliminate all the round gauges.  YIKES !!!!!   Did you just say remove all the round gauges????

We would suggest installing the Aspen, G5, retaining your #2 VOR, EDM and install a new pilot side panel...no plugs no holes, fresh, clean and only $1k more.  And we will back mount everything.

Just for the record, my overall plan is to build for future panel expansion and including the MFD in about two years.

Summary and my ask for you guys:

At the time of this post I have decided to follow the shops suggestions of installing the Aspen, G5, relocating my EDM, VOR #2, reposition my AP annunciator panel and basically reducing my instruments to about 50% of the panel with the other half clean.  And so I can say I said it, I completely get the transition training involved with moving away from round gauges so let's allow that to be a given for the moment.

Now it's your turn to fire away and I would like to say " thank you", in advance

Rick

PS, the attached panel was just me inserting equipment to get a picture of the final product before the idea of removing all round gauges entered the equation.

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

Does the G5 satisfy requirements as backup for airspeed and altitude?

[pwhicks]

I'll try to dig up my panel pics, but did a similar project.

Our end result for part 1 was Aspen removing turn bank and hsi's. At the time, Aspen didn't have a certification to control the Century autopilot so I had to have vacuum to the artificial horizon. That has now changed and someday I'll G5 or second Aspen and let the Aspen control the AP.

Added 750, flight stream 201, gdl88, GTX transponder and GMA audio while keeping kx155 for secondary radio.

All worth it.

Had to recently replace my vacuum pump which only controls my auto pilot aka the secondary artificial horizon. Will be happy when I can remove that too.

Flight Stream 501 would be nice for updating the 750. Since our project, the Garmin audio has built in blue tooth available. Wish I could have that too now but its rip and replace.

If the options were available when I had the panel open, hind sight would have done it all that single event. If my artificial horizon starts to act up then phase 2 will begin...g5/or Aspen 2 along with altitude hold.


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[MIm20c]

If you already purchased the ea100 I would ditch the 256. If your shop will approve the G5 to replace the asi and altimeter definitely do it. If you are cutting a new panel on the pilots side dig down deep and think about putting in a primary engine monitor. 

Sounds like you have given it a lot of thought, I’m excited to hear how it turns out. 

[Zulee]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

Does the G5 satisfy requirements as backup for airspeed and altitude?

According to the avionics shop, yes

[Zulee]

44 minutes ago, pwhicks said:

I'll try to dig up my panel pics, but did a similar project.

Our end result for part 1 was Aspen removing turn bank and hsi's. At the time, Aspen didn't have a certification to control the Century autopilot so I had to have vacuum to the artificial horizon. That has now changed and someday I'll G5 or second Aspen and let the Aspen control the AP.

Added 750, flight stream 201, gdl88, GTX transponder and GMA audio while keeping kx155 for secondary radio.

All worth it.

Had to recently replace my vacuum pump which only controls my auto pilot aka the secondary artificial horizon. Will be happy when I can remove that too.

Flight Stream 501 would be nice for updating the 750. Since our project, the Garmin audio has built in blue tooth available. Wish I could have that too now but its rip and replace.

If the options were available when I had the panel open, hind sight would have done it all that single event. If my artificial horizon starts to act up then phase 2 will begin...g5/or Aspen 2 along with altitude hold.


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Thanks for the feedback and it seems like timing is the name of the game...who has what at the moment your plane is in the shop.  

Fortunately Aspen has the EA100 solution for my KFC200 AP so I was able to check that  box.  I could spend 30 minutes on vacuum pumps and my woes over the years.  Not to mention, I have had my KI256 out of the plane 3 times, but I will admit since the last service it has performed flawlessly...but nevertheless, my confidence level is gone.

Thanks again for your feedback

Rick

[Zulee]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

Does the G5 satisfy requirements as backup for airspeed and altitude?

According to the Avionics shop, yes

[DonMuncy]

37 minutes ago, Zulee said:

According to the avionics shop, yes

Not that I have a dog in the fight, or any legitimate interest, but I'm nosy. If the avionics shop says it is legal to substitute the instrument, how are you protected if someone raises the issue somewhere down the line.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Zulee said:

According to the avionics shop, yes

Unless something has changed, Garmin’s STC for the G5 does not allow it to serve as a back up to anything except another G5.  There have been novel approaches to the  order the the ASpen and G5 are installations, but these would seem to violate the spirit of the STC.  

Clarence

[MIm20c]

18 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Unless something has changed, Garmin’s STC for the G5 does not allow it to serve as a back up to anything except another G5.  There have been novel approaches to the  order the the ASpen and G5 are installations, but these would seem to violate the spirit of the STC.  

Clarence

It’s now legal as a sole backup instrument to the old G500 and the txi displays. Not too much of a stretch to think it will be legal to use in the future depending on many factors. 

[Rick Junkin]

7 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Unless something has changed, Garmin’s STC for the G5 does not allow it to serve as a back up to anything except another G5.  There have been novel approaches to the  order the the ASpen and G5 are installations, but these would seem to violate the spirit of the STC.  

Clarence

It's really disheartening that a manufacturer can get an STC that states that their product is a qualified backup instrument, but it can only be a backup to another one of that manufacturer's instruments. Just imagine if that same approach and logic applied to the plethora of vacuum and electric AIs out there from all of the different manufacturers that have been used as backup or supplemental instruments. 

Yeah I know, apples and oranges, but more power to the shops that can find a way around the parochial intent of manufacturers in this new era of FAA focus on approving things that enhance the safety for us GA flyers. Although I guess the next thing that a manufacturer could do is make their instrument software check the interfaced hardware and disable the instrument if the interfaced hardware isn't of the same brand. Wouldn't that be interesting?

Thanks for your patience, I'm just venting. I'm actually really thankful (in keeping with the season) for all of the choices we have. Getting all of the kids to play nice in the sandbox would be a good move forward though. It sounds like @Zulee has found a shop that has found a way to make that work, at least as far as his new panel goes, so more power to him/them.

Cheers,
Rick (not Zulee, one of the OTHER Ricks)

[Zulee]

29 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Not that I have a dog in the fight, or any legitimate interest, but I'm nosy. If the avionics shop says it is legal to substitute the instrument, how are you protected if someone raises the issue somewhere down the line.

Your question is legitimate whether you have a dog in he fight or not and while I would be shocked that any avionics shop would lead someone down that road if otherwise.  But I have sent a text to the Aspen rep and the avionics shop to clarify.  I will post their responses.

Thanks Don

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Junkman said:

It's really disheartening that a manufacturer can get an STC that states that their product is a qualified backup instrument, but it can only be a backup to another one of that manufacturer's instruments. Just imagine if that same approach and logic applied to the plethora of vacuum and electric AIs out there from all of the different manufacturers that have been used as backup or supplemental instruments. 

Yeah I know, apples and oranges, but more power to the shops that can find a way around the parochial intent of manufacturers in this new era of FAA focus on approving things that enhance the safety for us GA flyers. Although I guess the next thing that a manufacturer could do is make their instrument software check the interfaced hardware and disable the instrument if the interfaced hardware isn't of the same brand. Wouldn't that be interesting?

Thanks for your patience, I'm just venting. I'm actually really thankful (in keeping with the season) for all of the choices we have. Getting all of the kids to play nice in the sandbox would be a good move forward though. It sounds like @Zulee has found a shop that has found a way to make that work, at least as far as his new panel goes, so more power to him/them.

Cheers,
Rick (not Zulee, one of the OTHER Ricks)

Not disagreeing, I’d like a G5 as a back up to my Aspen, but that seems impossible at the moment.  It’s strange that a G5 can be installed as a primary AI but not as a back up to other glass instruments.

Clarence

[Marauder]

Your question is legitimate whether you have a dog in he fight or not and while I would be shocked that any avionics shop would lead someone down that road if otherwise.  But I have sent a text to the Aspen rep and the avionics shop to clarify.  I will post their responses.

Thanks Don

 

Have you checked with Aspen about cutting you a deal on the MFD? That’s what got me into the MFD earlier than I had planned. And if the avionics shop is installing the current Aspen non-Max hardware, see if Aspen will offer the step to the Max at no charge. Don’t work through the avionics shop, go to Aspen and ask who the regional sales person is for your area. Call them and explain the situation. It may be worth the call.

 

I went through my upgrade as a two step process. I installed the MFD and was able to dump the VSI but opted to leave the ASI and altimeter in as well as the vacuum system (didn’t buy the extended battery version) - another hindsight thing.

 

On round two, which included the ADS-B upgrade, I installed an L-3 ESI-500 and dumped the ASI, altimeter and vacuum system. This included cutting a new panel. The L-3 has the Nav enablement turned on and it is a backup to the PFD’s HSI and a backup to the MFD’s HSI.

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would have done it all at once. A second upgrade just adds more costs to what I really wanted to begin with.

 

As a final option, with the Max coming out, if you cannot get them to cut you a deal, why not just wait until the Max is available and get the MFD and not deal with another backup?

 

Phase 1:

 

 

Phase 2:

 

 

 

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[Marauder]

Your question is legitimate whether you have a dog in he fight or not and while I would be shocked that any avionics shop would lead someone down that road if otherwise.  But I have sent a text to the Aspen rep and the avionics shop to clarify.  I will post their responses.
Thanks Don

What is happening out there is that some local FSDOs are approving the G5 while technically the STC doesn’t. As Clarence pointed out, it is pure stupidity that I can pull my vacuum system and fly around with just a G5 but it can’t be used to backup a solution that is primary.

What the Aspen Max is doing is allowing for a degraded AI performance using supplemental data rather than only relying on sole pitot static input found on the non-Max. The L-3 ESI-500 functions this way as well.


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[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, Junkman said:

It's really disheartening that a manufacturer can get an STC that states that their product is a qualified backup instrument, but it can only be a backup to another one of that manufacturer's instruments. Just imagine if that same approach and logic applied to the plethora of vacuum and electric AIs out there from all of the different manufacturers that have been used as backup or supplemental instruments. 

At this stage I wonder if it’s up to Aspen to approve the G5 as a suitable backup?  Will they if it steers people away from the dual max install?

[gsxrpilot]

I wouldn't ask Aspen or anyone. If the shop will approve it then do it. I have a G5 backing up my Aspen PFD and never thought twice about it.

I'd get rid of the VOR head and put in a primary engine monitor (EDM900) in its place. The Aspen will display both primary and secondary nav's simultaneously.

[Zulee]

12 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Have you checked with Aspen about cutting you a deal on the MFD? That’s what got me into the MFD earlier than I had planned. And if the avionics shop is installing the current Aspen non-Max hardware, see if Aspen will offer the step to the Max at no charge. Don’t work through the avionics shop, go to Aspen and ask who the regional sales person is for your area. Call them and explain the situation. It may be worth the call.

 

I went through my upgrade as a two step process. I installed the MFD and was able to dump the VSI but opted to leave the ASI and altimeter in as well as the vacuum system (didn’t buy the extended battery version) - another hindsight thing.

 

On round two, which included the ADS-B upgrade, I installed an L-3 ESI-500 and dumped the ASI, altimeter and vacuum system. This included cutting a new panel. The L-3 has the Nav enablement turned on and it is a backup to the PFD’s HSI and a backup to the MFD’s HSI.

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would have done it all at once. A second upgrade just adds more costs to what I really wanted to begin with.

 

As a final option, with the Max coming out, if you cannot get them to cut you a deal, why not just wait until the Max is available and get the MFD and not deal with another backup?

 

Phase 1:

 

 

Phase 2:

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

They offered a refurbished unit from Aspen installed for $5500 with a 1 year warranty.  And I totally understand all the reasons to do it while the panel is apart but I had to put the brakes on at some point. 

Your panel turned out great, by the way. 

[Zulee]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I wouldn't ask Aspen or anyone. If the shop will approve it then do it. I have a G5 backing up my Aspen PFD and never thought twice about it.

I'd get rid of the VOR head and put in a primary engine monitor (EDM900) in its place. The Aspen will display both primary and secondary nav's simultaneously.

We have discussed removing the second VOR head. Because I’ve never flown behind glass before I wasn’t sure how busy the display will become. 

But everything is on the table at the moment so I still have time and why I’ve turned to this group for input.

[MIm20c]

28 minutes ago, Zulee said:

They offered a refurbished unit from Aspen installed for $5500 with a 1 year warranty.  And I totally understand all the reasons to do it while the panel is apart but I had to put the brakes on at some point. 

Your panel turned out great, by the way. 

This is a great deal. It’s almost as much work to install a mfd1000 with external battery as it is the pfd. Expect to pay 3-4k in labor alone if you add the screen at a later date. Make sure they make all the connections to your gps and audio panel so the max upgrade will just be a drop in. 

For the backup with dual screens I’d put in a used lifesaver gyro w/ battery backup or a G5 (1k or 2.5k installed). 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Zulee said:

We have discussed removing the second VOR head. Because I’ve never flown behind glass before I wasn’t sure how busy the display will become. 

But everything is on the table at the moment so I still have time and why I’ve turned to this group for input.

Some features of flying glass do take a little time to get use to. For me the biggest one was rate of turn and coordination of turns. I just wasn't looking in the right place.

But having multiple Nav signals on the Aspen HSI is about a 2 minute learning curve. For me, it made using the VOR (Nav 2) even more intuitive. Also, of everything you're pulling out of the panel, that VOR head might have about the best resale value.

Something to think about.

[Zulee]

2 hours ago, MIm20c said:

This is a great deal. It’s almost as much work to install a mfd1000 with external battery as it is the pfd. Expect to pay 3-4k in labor alone if you add the screen at a later date. Make sure they make all the connections to your gps and audio panel so the max upgrade will just be a drop in. 

For the backup with dual screens I’d put in a used lifesaver gyro w/ battery backup or a G5 (1k or 2.5k installed). 

Based on a new MFD purchase price plus the install I agree, this was a great deal but another $5500 on my already $20k bill.  But I do like the idea of prewiring so the future install is as close to a "drop in" as possible.

[Jerry 5TJ]

13 hours ago, Marauder said:

.....If I had to do it all over again, I would have done it all at once......

Amen.  

 

[anthonydesmet]

So I have been pondering my next step/s as well,  currently have the Pro1000 and all other instruments are original plus JPI 700.  Next spring, home sale and work bonus permitting I am probably going with a new panel upgrade as well to my PRO PFD during my ADS-B install.  I have a question (maybe a stupid one) and probably obvious but nobody has said it outright.  Can the Aspen MFD be a legal attitude backup so I can pull my vacuum gauge? I see some of you with the Pro PFD, the MFD and then another AI source.

[gsxrpilot]

44 minutes ago, anthonydesmet said:

So I have been pondering my next step/s as well,  currently have the Pro1000 and all other instruments are original plus JPI 700.  Next spring, home sale and work bonus permitting I am probably going with a new panel upgrade as well to my PRO PFD during my ADS-B install.  I have a question (maybe a stupid one) and probably obvious but nobody has said it outright.  Can the Aspen MFD be a legal attitude backup so I can pull my vacuum gauge? I see some of you with the Pro PFD, the MFD and then another AI source.

We're expecting an upgrade to the Aspen platform around the first of the year. The new version will be called the AspenMAX. The current word is that a combination AspenMAX PFD/MFD won't require any other instruments at all.