Line up and wait

[RobertGary1]

Got this instruction at an international airport the other day. I know it’s icoa phrase but I believe the faa preferred phrase is still “position and hold”. Maybe atc can use either. I find “line up and wait” to be not descriptive enough for something as serious as sitting on an active runway.  You guys get that often ?

-Robert

[SantosDumont]

I've only been flying for 2 years... I've never heard position and hold.  I've only been told to line up and wait.

[skydvrboy]

Line up and wait is the proper phrase and the only one they should be using per FAA.  They changed because pilots (especially foreign pilots) when told hold position would taxi onto the runway and hold.  At least that's the story I was told.

[yvesg]

Getting this everywhere in USA. Listen to towers on atc.net... you’ll see.

Yves

[KLRDMD]

20 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Got this instruction at an international airport the other day. I know it’s icoa phrase but I believe the faa preferred phrase is still “position and hold”. Maybe atc can use either. I find “line up and wait” to be not descriptive enough for something as serious as sitting on an active runway.  You guys get that often ?

It changed over 8 years ago . . .

Beginning on September 30, 2010, the words "Position and Hold" will no longer be used to instruct a pilot to enter the runway and await takeoff clearance. Under the new "Line Up and Wait" phraseology, the controller will:

• State the call-sign.
• State the departure runway.
• State "Line Up and Wait".

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

Line up and wait is the proper phrase and the only one they should be using per FAA.  They changed because pilots (especially foreign pilots) when told hold position would taxi onto the runway and hold.  At least that's the story I was told.

That's what you're supposed to do, taxi onto the runway centerline, stop and wait. We called it "position and hold" while Europe calls it "line up and wait," even though Europeans don't line up in stores, they "get in queue." So at least we can be thankful that the FAA spared us that . . . .

[RobertGary1]

Interesting. I still hear position and hold. Maybe some controllers are still using the old phrase. 

Its a terrible phrase You can’t line up somewhere that could only be one. Who are you getting in line behind?

-Robert

Edited October 13, 2018 by RobertGary1

[ragedracer1977]

You’re not getting in line.  You’re lining up on the runway.  Like lining up a rifle shot or lining up a kick.  If you’re still hearing position and hold, those controllers are breaking the “rules”.

[jetdriven]

This change was mostly brought about because in other countries you are frequently instructed to “taxi to holding position runway 32” which means taxi up and hold short of runway 32. One of our regional guys back in 2005 heard this in Puerta Vallarta, Mx and did just what he was told, taxied onto the centerline, position and hold. Anyways not long after that rule was changed. 

[Tommy]

Position where to hold?

At the holding point? On the runway? 

It's confusing. 

[Yetti]

I use it when self announcing at tower fields.   If someone is poking down the runway while landing or all those other slow planes are taking off.   Just go ahead and claim the run way to get yourself situated to launch.

[flight2000]

7 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Interesting. I still hear position and hold. Maybe some controllers are still using the old phrase. 

Its a terrible phrase You can’t line up somewhere that could only be one. Who are you getting in line behind?

-Robert

What airport?  Curious to see if this is a contract or FAA tower (either way, they shouldn't be using that phrase anymore).  I haven't heard the "P&H" phrase since the change in 2010 and I fly mostly to controlled airports.

Cheers,

Brian

[Piloto]

I think " Line up and Hold" would be more specific. SInce "wait" (for what?) could imply takeoff after an airplane crossing the runway passed.

José

[RobertGary1]

32 minutes ago, Piloto said:

I think " Line up and Hold" would be more specific. SInce "wait" (for what?) could imply takeoff after an airplane crossing the runway passed.

José

But line up behind whom? SJC is a busy airport and you’re sandwiched beteen airliners so you really don’t want a runway incursion. 

-Robert

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

But line up behind whom? SJC is a busy airport and you’re sandwiched beteen airliners so you really don’t want a runway incursion. 

-Robert

Line up (on the centerline) and wait (for take off clearance).

When I first heard that a few years ago I asked the controller, “Is that like ‘hurry up and wait’ - he chuckled and said it sounded strange to him too when they first started using it.

[Johnnybgoode]

Often internationally you hear "behind the arriving/departing (aircraft type), line up and wait, behind"

First time I heard that I thought it a bad idea but it is a time saver - the tower controller can make the call when there is a break instead of waiting until after the plane lands/takes off and someone steps on him when he is ready to issue the clearance. Not hearing that in the US yet.

Agree that it's been a long tome since I have heard "position and hold" anywhere.

Patrick

[midlifeflyer]

15 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Interesting. I still hear position and hold. Maybe some controllers are still using the old phrase. 

Its a terrible phrase You can’t line up somewhere that could only be one. Who are you getting in line behind?

-Robert

You should not be hearing "position and hold." ATC is required to use standardized language.  What airports?

[Steve W]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

You should not be hearing "position and hold." ATC is required to use standardized language.  What airports?

The only time I've heard it on the radio in the last few years is when someone decides to say it(and do it) at an uncontrolled field.

 

[Guest]

From Nav Canada.

[RobertGary1]

Yea I noticed that difference. In Canada they have to say why and in icoa they do not.  @M20Doc

-Robert 

[ragedracer1977]

9 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

But line up behind whom? SJC is a busy airport and you’re sandwiched beteen airliners so you really don’t want a runway incursion. 

-Robert

They're not telling you to get in line, they're telling you to line up on the centerline.  

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

They're not telling you to get in line, they're telling you to line up on the centerline.  

IOW it means exactly the same thing as "taxi into position and hold." It was a change in standard US verbiage to match the rest of the world, not a change in procedure..

Edited October 14, 2018 by midlifeflyer

[Guest]

I was told that “Position and Hold” has been confused for “Position and Go” hence the change in verbiage.

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

8 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

IOW it means exactly the same thing as "taxi into position and hold." It was a change in standard US verbiage to match the rest of the world, not a change in procedure..

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that. I think the discussion is more around what the impression is for a native English speaker. Ideally icoa phraseology should be intuitive for English speakers.  

-Robert

[N201MKTurbo]

Oh for gosh sakes, they could change it to "Yabba Dabba Do". As a pilot you should know that Yabba Dabba Do means to pull on to the runway so you can't see the airplane that is landing on you.