Starting issue M20J

[NotarPilot]

I have a 1978 M20J with a Sky-Tec 149-12LS starter and a Concorde RG-35AXC.  They were installed in Feb 2016 and around August 2015 respectively with maybe 200 hours max since installation.  The ignition switch was also replaced with a new one approximately 2 years ago.

Sometimes when I attempt to engage the starter I only hear a click when I turn and push the ignition key in.  But when I do a second attempt of pushing in the key the starter will engage and turn the prop.  In May of this year my plane would not start at all and every time I pushed in the key I would only hear a click.  I attempted numerous times and same single click sound with each attempt.  The next day it started just fine.  My mechanic believed it is either the starter relay or the starter.  My mechanic changed the starter relay being that the starter is still relatively new and I doubt that's the issue.  

Two weeks ago I fly to another airport to fuel up. When I started the plane the prop turned over slowly like the battery was weak but it started just fine.  Once I flew to the other airport and gassed up the plane wouldn't start.  I made about 20 attempts and again, only the click with each time.  I tried turning the prop to different positions to no avail.  In the end I parked the plane and took an Uber home.  I was going to have a local shop on the field check it out but after nearly two weeks they still couldn't get around to looking at it since they were so busy.  So I decided to drive out there and see if the starter would engage.  Sure enough the starter engaged twice.  This time the battery seemed to give sufficient power despite having sat for two weeks outside in the heat.  This is in contrast to when I started it last and the prop turned a bit slow, like the battery was weak.

So what the hell is wrong with my plane?  Any and all ideas would be appreciated.  I'm at whits end and I'm very reluctant to fly it far from my home drome until I can figure out what's wrong with it.  I'm extremely frustrated at this point.

[Andy95W]

How old is your master relay?  The next time it happens, try flipping the master switch a few times, and see if it happens again.

[EricJ]

Listen closely to see if you can tell whether the starter is spinning just not engaging.  It'll make a whiney kind of sound.  This is not uncommon and may respond well to spraying some silicone lube on the starter bendix (the gear assembly that engages the gear teeth on the propeller).

 

[nels]

Check your battery connection to ground. Clean your battery terminals and tighten cables. Clean and tighten positive cable connection at the starter and opposite end of that cable. Clean and tighten cable at solenoid. Check and tighten all heavy cable connections in starter circuit.

[carusoam]

Sounds like a bit of corrosion could be  on any electrical surface...

1) Got a spray can of electrical cleaner handy?

2) look for signs of crusty stuff on battery terminals... cleans up easily with hot water...

3) Could be as simple as dirt in the switch... but, too new to expect it...

4) Relays have a way of not passing all the power when engaged... trade out anything 40 plus years old, first... Smile while you do it...

5) Sticky bendix drives whir loudly when not engaged... You won’t miss that...

6) Listen for the clicks... They will give you a hint to where the various relays are hiding. But they won’t tell you how dirty they are.

7) can you see a volt meter when turning/pushing the key? Does the battery fade when pushing the key?

8) Do you have the battery on a batteryMinder? Has it been sitting a month without much flying?

9) This is a list of ideas for things to check... said differently...

How many electrons are available to do the job...

Are the electrons getting to the job site...

is there any corrosion, dirt, or wear, keeping the electrons from passing at full speed...

When the electrons show up in full force is the bendix drive ready, willing, and able to do the job....

battery, master relay, starter relay, ignition switch, any wire connection between these items... even ground straps are important to get a gander at...

hard to check all this voltage by yourself... a qualified helper is an important safety issue...

If/when the prop swings... don’t be standing near it...

If the engine accidentally starts... don’t get run over...

hope tha sparks a good idea...

PP thoughts only, I collected these ideas here on MS...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

Listen closely to see if you can tell whether the starter is spinning just not engaging.  It'll make a whiney kind of sound.  This is not uncommon and may respond well to spraying some silicone lube on the starter bendix (the gear assembly that engages the gear teeth on the propeller).

 

Does the Skytec starter use a bendix gear?

[NotarPilot]

5 hours ago, Andy95W said:

How old is your master relay?  The next time it happens, try flipping the master switch a few times, and see if it happens again.

You think this would really be the problem if I still get power when I flip the master on?

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

Listen closely to see if you can tell whether the starter is spinning just not engaging.  It'll make a whiney kind of sound.  This is not uncommon and may respond well to spraying some silicone lube on the starter bendix (the gear assembly that engages the gear teeth on the propeller).

 

I definitely do not hear the starter spinning.  I highly doubt it's this.

3 hours ago, nels said:

Check your battery connection to ground. Clean your battery terminals and tighten cables. Clean and tighten positive cable connection at the starter and opposite end of that cable. Clean and tighten cable at solenoid. Check and tighten all heavy cable connections in starter circuit.

I'm going to look at the ground wires both to the starter and the relay as one of my mechanics also suggested this.

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

Sounds like a bit of corrosion could be  on any electrical surface...

1) Got a spray can of electrical cleaner handy?

2) look for signs of crusty stuff on battery terminals... cleans up easily with hot water...

3) Could be as simple as dirt in the switch... but, too new to expect it...

4) Relays have a way of not passing all the power when engaged... trade out anything 40 plus years old, first... Smile while you do it...

5) Sticky bendix drives whir loudly when not engaged... You won’t miss that...

6) Listen for the clicks... They will give you a hint to where the various relays are hiding. But they won’t tell you how dirty they are.

7) can you see a volt meter when turning/pushing the key? Does the battery fade when pushing the key?

8) Do you have the battery on a batteryMinder? Has it been sitting a month without much flying?

 

 

 

I will look at the master relay.  This also sounds like a good place to check.  I believe I have some electrical cleaner somewhere.  I'll also look for corrosion.

 

I appreciate all the responses.  Thanks, the answer's gotta be here somewhere.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, nels said:

Check your battery connection to ground. Clean your battery terminals and tighten cables. Clean and tighten positive cable connection at the starter and opposite end of that cable. Clean and tighten cable at solenoid. Check and tighten all heavy cable connections in starter circuit.

Along with all of those be sure to check the engine ground cable at the aft right side of the engine.  Normally a braided cable from the engine to the firewall step for the co pilots rudder pedals.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

I’ve had master relays do some funky things to electrical systems that you wouldn’t normally expect. 

Arcing inside the relay produces a carbon buildup that allows current to pass but restricts flow. Kind of like  kink in a garden hose- water will flow, but is greatly restricted. 

[bradp]

Have you examined whether the ignition switch is mechanically coupled to the starter circuit? 

[mooniac15u]

On 10/5/2018 at 8:29 PM, NotarPilot said:

I have a 1978 M20J with a Sky-Tec 149-12LS starter and a Concorde RG-35AXC.  They were installed in Feb 2016 and around August 2015 respectively with maybe 200 hours max since installation.  The ignition switch was also replaced with a new one approximately 2 years ago.

Sometimes when I attempt to engage the starter I only hear a click when I turn and push the ignition key in.  But when I do a second attempt of pushing in the key the starter will engage and turn the prop.  In May of this year my plane would not start at all and every time I pushed in the key I would only hear a click.  I attempted numerous times and same single click sound with each attempt.  The next day it started just fine.  My mechanic believed it is either the starter relay or the starter.  My mechanic changed the starter relay being that the starter is still relatively new and I doubt that's the issue.  

Two weeks ago I fly to another airport to fuel up. When I started the plane the prop turned over slowly like the battery was weak but it started just fine.  Once I flew to the other airport and gassed up the plane wouldn't start.  I made about 20 attempts and again, only the click with each time.  I tried turning the prop to different positions to no avail.  In the end I parked the plane and took an Uber home.  I was going to have a local shop on the field check it out but after nearly two weeks they still couldn't get around to looking at it since they were so busy.  So I decided to drive out there and see if the starter would engage.  Sure enough the starter engaged twice.  This time the battery seemed to give sufficient power despite having sat for two weeks outside in the heat.  This is in contrast to when I started it last and the prop turned a bit slow, like the battery was weak.

So what the hell is wrong with my plane?  Any and all ideas would be appreciated.  I'm at whits end and I'm very reluctant to fly it far from my home drome until I can figure out what's wrong with it.  I'm extremely frustrated at this point.

Have you tested your battery?

[NotarPilot]

On 10/6/2018 at 7:01 PM, bradp said:

Have you examined whether the ignition switch is mechanically coupled to the starter circuit? 

I have not but it was installed about 2 years ago so I doubt this is the problem but I will certainly check, thanks.

11 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

Have you tested your battery?

Not yet, no.