GFC500 Update

[donkaye]

54 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Where do you see that the KI300 is substantially more expensive? I expect M20L is a typo.

It's not.

[gsengle]

It's not.

 

Ok it’s just really odd! Got one cheap as a test bed maybe...

 

 

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[EricJ]

13 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I agree completely.  One can always do a bad job. And sometimes we do!  I guess when I say one should never do a bad job engineering the system - I might as well say one should never design a bad bridge - one that will fall apart. And yes sometimes people do exactly that.  And sometimes bridges collapse, buildings collapse, etc. But my assertion that one should not do bad engineering I am trying to say that the concept of how to do it well exists even if in practice the people doing the practice may make bad designs.  I'm standing up for the math vs standing up for the people doing the math.  I have not spent a career doing the math combining comm signals specifically as you have, but I am spending a career doing math generally, especially dynamical systems and data science (data enabled science).  I am a math/ece prof.

One of the issues for sensor fusion in something like this is that the importance of how various inputs, especially disparate inputs, should be weighted and treated during faults is often subjective.   Clearly it is possible for an autopilot to fly an ILS/LOC/VOR without GPS, because there've been successful implementations that do just that for many decades.   The Century III installation in my airplane is forty years old and it will fly a glideslope dead nuts on.   Garmin's decision to exclude that capability because GPS has faulted is suspicious, IMHO.   Maybe it just saved them testing/verification time by reducing the number of fault permutations, i.e., they don't have to test/verify ILS/LOC/VOR with GPS faulted because they just don't do it.   It's lame, but it's often how engineering for high-reliability systems works, especially if you're behind schedule.

Edited December 21, 2018 by EricJ

[smccray]

12 minutes ago, Steve W said:

I haven't seen anything that says the KA310 is required if you use a KFC-230, only for legacy(analog input) autopilots. I'd assume they were smart enough to put the ARINC output for the KFC on the KI-300 itself... Then again, it is BK.

Fair enough!  That saves $1K from the price.  It's unlikely that 1 AMU is a game changer for any particular product comparing the two.

Edit- the fact that the KI310 is available and lets owners replace vacuum powered instruments with electric power is a big advantage.  It should have happened years ago.

Edited December 21, 2018 by smccray

[donkaye]

26 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I'm not seeing where the king aero cruz is promising more capability than the garmin.  I don't mean that as an argument.  I'm just asking.

I mean separate from the different failure modes that I was already discussing above, does the aero cruz offer more features?

Less.  No envelope protection.

[smccray]

9 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

What is control wheel steering?

I really like the envelope protection (ESP) and level button - these are the killer aps that make me want to get that A/P above all.

Control wheel steering lets the pilot take control of the airplane manually without disconnecting the autopilot.  I didn't use it much with the KAP150 in my Mooney, and it remains to be seen how useful it is in my bonanza.  It's advantageous where you're trying to establish a climb with an attitude based autopilot.  Hit the CWS button, adjust the attitude for the desired climb rate, then release the button to reengage the autopilot.

[Steve W]

15 minutes ago, smccray said:

Edit- the fact that the KI310 is available and lets owners replace vacuum powered instruments with electric power is a big advantage.  It should have happened years ago.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves... the KI-300 is shipping, the KA-310 to actually use with a legacy autopilot is not, coming 'Q1 2019'... don't hold your breath.

On one hand I am a bit considering the KI-300 and a G5 HSI for my existing KAP-150 to hold me until I can afford a full GFC500, on the other hand, maybe just the G5 for now as I can buy quite a few KG-258s off ebay for the cost of the KI-300.

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Steve W

[smccray]

3 minutes ago, Steve W said:

 Let's not get ahead of ourselves... the KI-300 is shipping, the KA-310 to actually use with a legacy autopilot is not, coming 'Q1 2019'... don't hold your breath.

On one hand I am a bit considering the KI-300 and a G5 HSI for my existing KAP-150 to hold me until I can afford a full GFC500, on the other hand, maybe just the G5 for now as I can buy quite a few KG-258's off ebay for the cost of the KI-300.

  

G5 HSI is a wash.

KI300 + KA310 (if it shows up  ) is $4700 + install.

Then you buy the GFC500 (assuming it's STC'd) and a second G5 for what- $10K plus install?  Less the core value of the King system- what $3-4K?  Hmmmmm

 

[carqwik]

Don't you have to buy the Garmin servos as well with the GFC500?  If so, I'd do the King 230 a/p since it's an easier swap for the KFC150 plus it includes the 3 year warranty on the existing servos.

Edited December 22, 2018 by carqwik

[aviatoreb]

20 minutes ago, smccray said:

G5 HSI is a wash.

KI300 + KA310 (if it shows up  ) is $4700 + install.

Then you buy the GFC500 (assuming it's STC'd) and a second G5 for what- $10K plus install?  Less the core value of the King system- what $3-4K?  Hmmmmm

 

That's my thought - all said and done, installed and flying home from the avionics shop...

I have a feeling that GFC500 + 2 G5's plus all the extras plus the not so trivial cost of remove old serves and install new servos, etc... but plus some core value of the king system removed hopefully in working order

will be very similar to the cost of a KFC230 plus KI300 + KA310 plus whatever we decide to do with attitude.  And then we have a less capable autopilot, and old servos that are more expensive to maintain when they need service.

[LANCECASPER]

55 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

What is control wheel steering?

I really like the envelope protection (ESP) and level button - these are the killer aps that make me want to get that A/P above all.

The AeroCruze also has the Level Button

 

[aviatoreb]

34 minutes ago, carqwik said:

Don't you have to buy the Garmin servos as well with the GFC500?  If so, I'd do the King 230 a/p since it's an easier swap for the KFC150 plus it includes the 3 year warranty on the existing servos.

Servos are included in the base price for the GFC500.

They should include drop in modern brushless servos as an option for the BK to be comparable.

Based on prices at this place - Lafayette - that I found with a bit of browsing - a place that posts estimated costs installed, they suggest for a Beech Bonanza its $19k for GFC500 plus dual G5 plus trim system plus the uncharge for the Bonanza.  I would guess it would be something similar for a Mooney with the same system.

https://avionics-laf.com/products/garmin-gfc500-autopilot-9-995-00-installed

[smccray]

39 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

That's my thought - all said and done, installed and flying home from the avionics shop...

I have a feeling that GFC500 + 2 G5's plus all the extras plus the not so trivial cost of remove old serves and install new servos, etc... but plus some core value of the king system removed hopefully in working order

will be very similar to the cost of a KFC230 plus KI300 + KA310 plus whatever we decide to do with attitude.  And then we have a less capable autopilot, and old servos that are more expensive to maintain when they need service.

The same thread I linked to before included a post where someone mentions that the KFC 230 installation requires Bendix King to test the servos. The bendix rep didn’t respond to the post. I don’t have a clue if that’s correct or not. 

The GFC600 install I just had completed was pretty straight forward according to the tech that did the install. New brackets with new servos in the old locations. I don’t have a breakdown of the time to install just the autopilot, but I’m sure it was a time consuming process.  Autopilot worked perfectly on the first flight.

[Marauder]

The same thread I linked to before included a post where someone mentions that the KFC 230 installation requires Bendix King to test the servos. The bendix rep didn’t respond to the post. I don’t have a clue if that’s correct or not. 
The GFC600 install I just had completed was pretty straight forward according to the tech that did the install. New brackets with new servos in the old locations. I don’t have a breakdown of the time to install just the autopilot, but I’m sure it was a time consuming process.  Autopilot worked perfectly on the first flight.

And how many AMUs did it set you back. Inquiring Cheap Bast$&ds want to know.


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[smccray]

19 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

And how many AMUs did it set you back. Inquiring Cheap Bast$&ds want to know.


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I don’t have the cost broken out. It was part of a very large project replacing all the avionics in the plane.

GFC600 with trim and yaw. Equipment price is in the mid 20s. Servos were probably 3 days of work @ $95 an hour.  The wiring was run as part of a new wiring harness for the whole plane.  Hooking up the GFC600 to the G500 was probably about the same or less wiring work as connecting a KFC200.  Digital autopilot didn’t require the GAD43E.

[Bob - S50]

20 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

It’s not great which is why I’m evaluating replacements and plan to ditch vacuum pumps. Having your AI rely that heavily on an easily jammed constellation of satellites isn’t a step forward imho. I don’t see why they can’t come up with a device that can be certified without that input, based on my knowledge of electronics and physics.


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You can come up with such a device.  But how many would be willing to pay the extra cost of developing such a device?  Why are we all looking at the GFC500 instead of the GFC600?  Cost.  The 600 will do what you want, the 500 will not.  You can have it good, you can have it quick, or you can have it cheap.  Pick 2.

[gsengle]

You can come up with such a device.  But how many would be willing to pay the extra cost of developing such a device?  Why are we all looking at the GFC500 instead of the GFC600?  Cost.  The 600 will do what you want, the 500 will not.  You can have it good, you can have it quick, or you can have it cheap.  Pick 2.

The point is current mechanical gyros do it just fine. It’s not hard. I expect the KI300 won’t have such a limitation. Need to confirm.


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[Bob - S50]

16 hours ago, smccray said:

Control wheel steering lets the pilot take control of the airplane manually without disconnecting the autopilot.  I didn't use it much with the KAP150 in my Mooney, and it remains to be seen how useful it is in my bonanza.  It's advantageous where you're trying to establish a climb with an attitude based autopilot.  Hit the CWS button, adjust the attitude for the desired climb rate, then release the button to reengage the autopilot.

I think I've used the CWS on my KFC200 maybe once in 5 years.  I only use it if I need to make a quicker maneuver than the autopilot is capable of.  For example, the AP is about to overshoot the final so I can hit the CWS, make a quick turn to align with the final and then let the AP take over again.

With the GFC500 I don't think I'll ever need CWS.  The AP has GNSS so I doubt it will ever overshoot very badly.  Unlike my KFC200, it will be pretty easy to accurately adjust my rate of climb or descent so I shouldn't need CWS for that either.

Others may want the CWS but I can live just fine without it.

[Marauder]

I think I've used the CWS on my KFC200 maybe once in 5 years.  I only use it if I need to make a quicker maneuver than the autopilot is capable of.  For example, the AP is about to overshoot the final so I can hit the CWS, make a quick turn to align with the final and then let the AP take over again.
With the GFC500 I don't think I'll ever need CWS.  The AP has GNSS so I doubt it will ever overshoot very badly.  Unlike my KFC200, it will be pretty easy to accurately adjust my rate of climb or descent so I shouldn't need CWS for that either.
Others may want the CWS but I can live just fine without it.

I think the big advantage of CWS is on a missed approach while you’re trying to clean up the plane. I agree, flown for years without one in the plane but have enough experience to know they have some value, but at what cost?


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[Bob - S50]

5 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

The point is current mechanical gyros do it just fine. It’s not hard. I expect the KI300 won’t have such a limitation. Need to confirm.


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I think the G5 will provide attitude just fine without the GPS.  However, I think they are using GPS data to smooth out the signal from an ILS or VOR to avoid S turning down final.  They just don't want the autopilot to do that.  If it did people would probably start calling it a piece of excrement.  That would hurt their reputation and affect future says (can you say BK?)

You can still hand fly the approach, you just won't have a flight director or autopilot.  The horrors.

[Bob - S50]

Just now, Marauder said:

 

I think the big advantage of CWS is on a missed approach while you’re trying to clean up the plane. I agree, flown for years without one in the plane but have enough experience to know they have some value, but at what cost?


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That may be.  But with the GFC500, when you hit the go around button the autopilot will pitch up and switch to roll and pitch mode.  That should give you a go around attitude and wings level.  No need for the CWS.  Once you have executed the go around (cowl flaps, mixture, prop, throttle, climb, gear, flaps, etc) push the nav or heading button and the IAS or VS button and away you go.

[gsengle]

I think the G5 will provide attitude just fine without the GPS.  However, I think they are using GPS data to smooth out the signal from an ILS or VOR to avoid S turning down final.  They just don't want the autopilot to do that.  If it did people would probably start calling it a piece of excrement.  That would hurt their reputation and affect future says (can you say BK?)
You can still hand fly the approach, you just won't have a flight director or autopilot.  The horrors.

Again my current 25 year old king does it just fine. Not like the sloppy S-TEC. It’s a reduction in capability and if you fly hard single pilot IFR its an unacceptable one.


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[Bob - S50]

7 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

Again my current 25 year old king does it just fine. Not like the sloppy S-TEC. It’s a reduction in capability and if you fly hard single pilot IFR its an unacceptable one.


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To each their own.  That's why there isn't just one aircraft manufacturer, one avionics manufacturer, one...

My KFC200 would S turn on short final.  Do I want to keep sending it in for adjustment?  Do I want to keep repairing it or replace it with a new more reliable system?

We each have our own opinions and priorities and get to make our own choices.  For those that find the GPS requirement unacceptable they can choose BK, Dynon, TT, Trio, STEC, others?  Each of those has their limitations.

In my opinion, it's not a deal breaker.  For me, lack of electric trim is.  $2000+ repair costs on servos is.  Thus my choice.

If it's that important to you, buy the GFC600.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Bob - S50
grammar, content

[gsengle]

To each their own.  That's why their isn't just one aircraft manufacturer, one avionics manufacturer, one...
My KFC200 would S turn on short final.  Do I want to keep sending it in for adjustment?  Do I want to keep repairing it or replace it with a new more reliable system?
We each have our own opinions and priorities and get to make our own choices.  For those that find the GPS requirement unacceptable they can choose BK, Dynon, TT, Trio, STEC, others?  Each of those has their limitations.
In my opinion, it's not a deal breaker.  For me, lack of electric trim is.  $2000+ repair costs on servos is.  Thus my choice.

Put another way, an inoperable approach autopilot would make flight illegal single pilot if it were a commercial operation.

Fine, smooth out things when you have GPS signal. But to disconnect totally when you lose it? I’ll take a little bit of figuring out the winds.


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[donkaye]

10 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

To each their own.  That's why there isn't just one aircraft manufacturer, one avionics manufacturer, one...

My KFC200 would S turn on short final.  Do I want to keep sending it in for adjustment?  Do I want to keep repairing it or replace it with a new more reliable system?

We each have our own opinions and priorities and get to make our own choices.  For those that find the GPS requirement unacceptable they can choose BK, Dynon, TT, Trio, STEC, others?  Each of those has their limitations.

In my opinion, it's not a deal breaker.  For me, lack of electric trim is.  $2000+ repair costs on servos is.  Thus my choice.

If it's that important to you, buy the GFC600.

I've asked Garmin multiple times about certifying the GFC600 for the Mooney.  Each time its been a firm NO!