Lost a Mooney pilot today

[ragedracer1977]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-breaking/2018/08/20/small-plane-crashes-near-deer-valley-airport/1040859002/

He just bought the plane on Saturday.  Flew a M20F out of DVT.  

[Hank]

Crap! I read about this accident earlier today, while one was still alive. From the wreckage, it looks like they hit hard. Someone had dashcam video with the plane off in the distance, it looked close to vertical with a couple of turns.

Another sad day in Arizona. Peace to all affected.

Ya'll fly safe out there!!

[jackn]

Crap

[ragedracer1977]

37 minutes ago, Hank said:

Crap! I read about this accident earlier today, while one was still alive. From the wreckage, it looks like they hit hard. Someone had dashcam video with the plane off in the distance, it looked close to vertical with a couple of turns.

Another sad day in Arizona. Peace to all affected.

Ya'll fly safe out there!!

He owned a business 3 doors down from mine.  No idea how much experience he had, but I know he only got his tail wheel endorsement a month or so ago

[EricJ]

Bummer.   The traffic report on the radio this morning mentioned the crash was affecting the street traffic, but I figured it was one of the school planes had to put one down on the street.    Very sad to see.   

 

[carusoam]

Seeing if Mike has some info...

@mike_elliott

Sharing the info about a lost Mooney pilot, even though the plane lost was not a Mooney...

Best regards,

-a-

[ragedracer1977]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

Bummer.   The traffic report on the radio this morning mentioned the crash was affecting the street traffic, but I figured it was one of the school planes had to put one down on the street.    Very sad to see.   

 

Some of the local CFIs said he was hotdogging pretty hard.  

[Niko182]

21 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Some of the local CFIs said he was hotdogging pretty hard.  

whats hotdogging?

[ragedracer1977]

32 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

whats hotdogging?

Showing off, pushing limits.  I wasn’t there.  I don’t know.  But I know he was a born thrill seeker, so it wouldn’t surprise me.

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Some of the local CFIs said he was hotdogging pretty hard.  

In the pattern?  He was well inside the pattern at the crash site.

Flew to San Carlos last Sunday to practice the approach and as we were taking off from DVT on 25R a biplane took off on 25L and did a pretty spectacular steep high-rate climb to pattern altitude right next to us.   I've seen the Extras do that there once in a while, too, and didn't think too much of it at the time.   I wonder now if it was the same guy.   

[steingar]

Second crash this summer of someone new to the airplane.  The other one was a friend of mine.

[ragedracer1977]

14 hours ago, EricJ said:

In the pattern?  He was well inside the pattern at the crash site.

Flew to San Carlos last Sunday to practice the approach and as we were taking off from DVT on 25R a biplane took off on 25L and did a pretty spectacular steep high-rate climb to pattern altitude right next to us.   I've seen the Extras do that there once in a while, too, and didn't think too much of it at the time.   I wonder now if it was the same guy.   

As in Sunday the 19th?  It might have been.  He brought the plane home on Saturday the 18th.

someone sent me a picture of the plane post crash, pre NTSB.  It’s really destroyed.  No, I can’t post it.  

[EricJ]

Just now, ragedracer1977 said:

As in Sunday the 19th?  It might have been.  He brought the plane home on Saturday the 18th.

someone sent me a picture of the plane post crash, pre NTSB.  It’s really destroyed.  No, I can’t post it.  

Yes, the 19th.   We're pretty sure it was the same airplane.

The pics on the news sites and Kathryn's report have quite a few pics that are public (and sad).    A couple of the local news sites had vid of it in the final stages of a tumble/spin before impact.   It did not appear to me to be under control at all.    

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/08/stolp-sa-750-acroduster-too-n787wm.html

[KLRDMD]

14 hours ago, EricJ said:

Flew to San Carlos last Sunday to practice the approach and as we were taking off from DVT on 25R a biplane took off on 25L and did a pretty spectacular steep high-rate climb to pattern altitude right next to us.   I've seen the Extras do that there once in a while, too, and didn't think too much of it at the time.   I wonder now if it was the same guy.   

I was at San Carlos yesterday. Weather permitting I'll be there Friday too.

[ValkyrieRider]

On 8/21/2018 at 6:37 AM, EricJ said:

In the pattern?  He was well inside the pattern at the crash site.

Flew to San Carlos last Sunday to practice the approach and as we were taking off from DVT on 25R a biplane took off on 25L and did a pretty spectacular steep high-rate climb to pattern altitude right next to us.   I've seen the Extras do that there once in a while, too, and didn't think too much of it at the time.   I wonder now if it was the same guy.   

 

I agree with @ragedracer1977 that it most likely was the accident pilot.

On Monday, August 20th, I just completed my preflight at about 6:35 am local.  My instructor and I were talking before we got in the plane and we noticed a blue biplane doing a low pass down runway 25L at DVT, and then he goes straight into a steep climb before the end of the runway.  We sat and watched him through the low pass, the steep climb, and the sharp (to me, from the ground) turn to the left on crosswind before he was out of sight.  While waiting for a hangar, my M20C is sitting at the southwest covered tie downs directly adjacent to 25L.  We then jumped in the plane and was airborne very shortly after.  We went over to Glendale (GEU) for about 8 landings and then returned.  Upon returning to DVT we decided to do a simulated engine-out landing, so cut in 45' between base and final, and flew directly over the accident site - but I was so focused on the engine out procedures and making a nice landing, I didn't notice anything below me.  Since the accident was outside of the airport, traffic wasn't interrupted, so we had no idea until we landed, and my instructor received a text informing us of the accident.  As soon as we saw the plane, we knew it was the same biplane that we were watching, and actually marveling at how beautiful it was.   I did not know that he also owned a Mooney - this was very sad.

[ragedracer1977]

Sounds like you noticed he was flying aggressively, too.  

His girlfriend was also a pilot (and had recently been doing acro training) so it’s also possible she was flying.  Don’t know how they’ll figure that out

[kmyfm20s]

To me it looks like a control linkage broke. 

 

[EricJ]

Totally speculation on my part, but looks like an aggravated stall-spin to me with maybe a secondary stall in there, too.   Unfamiliarity with the stall characteristics of the airplane probably contributed.
 

[kmyfm20s]

Regardless it doesn’t seem like they transitioned into their new toy slowly. Sad and unfortunate!

[kortopates]

The preliminary is out: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20180820X31422&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA 

[FastTex]

Honoring the memory of people no longer with us is a sign of respect. Studying and analyzing the cause of these accidents to be aware is another reason why we share and read these details.

As a "new pilot" (~ 4 years) I would like to understand more about the wing stall (I believe left in this case). I know the flight dynamics, the stall, etc. but does it mean this aircraft was too slow? or fast enough but in a too steep turn? What else can cause this while in the pattern?

Edited September 11, 2018 by FastTex

[FastTex]

2 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Be very mindful when your Mooney is under 100 MPH. This is roughly the speed that it will stall at in level flight at 60 degrees bank angle and 2 G’s. I can’t think of any reasonable maneuvering that will exceed that. Rules to live by. 

Jim

Thanks Jim. So I do 90kts (downwind), 80kts (base), 70kts (final)...basically for the whole pattern and part of the approach I must pay attention to the bank angle not to exceed about 60 degrees. Great info.

[steingar]

I think once my airplane is returned to me from the avionics shop from hell I will fly wider landing patterns. Normally I fly within easy gliding distance to the runway, but I find myself exhibiting poor airmanship, banking at steeper angles at lower speed than I find comfortable.  Truth be told the aircraft shed energy far more slowly than the trainers I’ve flown in the past, and I think the extra room will give me time to effect more stabilized approaches. I’m certain a better pilot could easily do it within gliding distance of the airport, but we all have to be who we are.

Normally one doesn’t want to do this in case the engine quits in the landing pattern. But given proper fuel management, this sort of scenario is vanishingly rare. What isn’t rare are stall spin accidents within the landing pattern.

[Cyril Gibb]

2 hours ago, FastTex said:

Thanks Jim. So I do 90kts (downwind), 80kts (base), 70kts (final)...basically for the whole pattern and part of the approach I must pay attention to the bank angle not to exceed about 60 degrees. Great info.

A 60 degree bank at your base and final speeds are near or below the stall speed for an F.  At pattern altitude, you're dead.

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

A 60 degree bank at your base and final speeds are near or below the stall speed for an F.  At pattern altitude, you're dead.

Not if he has the nose down and is descending . . . . .

Trying to hold altitude, yes, he's dead with 60° banks.

Personally, I don't like even 30° banks in the pattern.