Any Attorney based in FL?

[tomgo2]

RAJAY has explored every avenue possible to try and reclaim the Mooney-RAJAY STCs back from Modworks Inc. based in FL which is now a defunct company.  If there are any Florida based Attorneys that may be interested in helping out the RAJAY-Mooney owners within the Mooney community please contact me.

 

Tom Langeland

830-822-2390

[KSMooniac]

Good luck...would be a nice thing to get those back in circulation. Along with all of their other good mods for that matter.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[tomgo2]

Thanks. It will take some effort and creativity to find a way to recover those STCs. It is not commercially viable for RAJAY to spend a large amount of time or money on this narrow product line without assistance from the community. Maybe I should start a GoFundMe page?!?!?

[1964-M20E]

Tom

pardon me but please bring us up to date again on this. 

Have you talked or communicated with the person or persons who actually have the STC data and ownership?

Have you tried to do a lease / purchase or licensing type agreement with them to use the STC?  I'm thinking like $500 to $1,000 per STC.  You get to sell the parts and have more of your systems out there (future parts sales) and they get some monetary benefit from it as well.  Eventually after so many licenses you would own the STC outright and have full control of it.

If the total cost of materials and STC can be kept reasonable (I'm thinking $15k+/- for a kit) you might just be able to sell some kits.

[DualRatedFlyer]

^^^what he said

[tomgo2]

Thanks for the comments and questions.  I contacted the owner of the company and he is in no way going to do anything with the STCs which would jeopardize his protection of the corporation.  The corporation no longer exists and therefore he cannot sign them over.  If he were to sign or sell anything it would be him acting personally, opening himself up to liabilities.  He would essentially be "piercing the corporate shield."  He made it painfully clear that the STCs are dead and will not be touched.  It would take forces beyond the STC owner to compel him to take action or do something hence the need for an attorney.

FYI - I agree that $15,000 would be a great number for the kit, but that is not realistic.  That was the price it was being sold at in 1985.  Today's price would be somewhere around $30,000.

[takair]

Might be cheaper to just get a new STC.  Also, wasn't "M-20 Turbos" selling their turbo STC some time ago?  Can't recall what came of that.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tomgo2 said:

Thanks for the comments and questions.  I contacted the owner of the company and he is in no way going to do anything with the STCs which would jeopardize his protection of the corporation.  The corporation no longer exists and therefore he cannot sign them over.  If he were to sign or sell anything it would be him acting personally, opening himself up to liabilities.  He would essentially be "piercing the corporate shield."  He made it painfully clear that the STCs are dead and will not be touched.  It would take forces beyond the STC owner to compel him to take action or do something hence the need for an attorney.

FYI - I agree that $15,000 would be a great number for the kit, but that is not realistic.  That was the price it was being sold at in 1985.  Today's price would be somewhere around $30,000.

Tom,

You have to remember that here on MooneySpace we have the CB club(cheap bastards). They are known for being very frugal with their aviation dollars.  

Clarence

[tomgo2]

The attorney won't compel the owner, but rather a judgement from a court will.  There could be a lawsuit for damages brought forward by the aircraft owners for the loss of value in their plane or inability to maintain their plane??? The lawsuit could seek damages and use the STCs as the possible rectification??? Hence the need for an attorney that is a Mooney fanatic that is willing to do this for free (addresses CB club statement above).

If there is a judgement (of some type) and takes the onus off the owner and relieves him of his corporate shield concern...I'm not an attorney and that is what I would expect them to formulate. I am just throwing something out there. Truthfully, I don't really know if I have a dog in this fight, but would like to see how we can help the Mooney owners that I encounter who get shafted on this stuff.

I know this hurts the RAJAY brand even though we have nothing to do with the situation.

Tom 

[Jerry 5TJ]

6 hours ago, tomgo2 said:

 .....I agree that $15,000 would be a great number for the kit, but that is not realistic.  That was the price it was being sold at in 1985.  Today's price would be somewhere around $30,000.

....per Inflation Calculatior $15,000 in 1985 is closer to $36,000 in 2018, and aviation items have generally outpaced inflation.  

[takair]

7 minutes ago, tomgo2 said:

The attorney won't compel the owner, but rather a judgement from a court will.  There could be a lawsuit for damages brought forward by the aircraft owners for the loss of value in their plane or inability to maintain their plane??? The lawsuit could seek damages and use the STCs as the possible rectification??? Hence the need for an attorney that is a Mooney fanatic that is willing to do this for free (addresses CB club statement above).

If there is a judgement (of some type) and takes the onus off the owner and relieves him of his corporate shield concern...I'm not an attorney and that is what I would expect them to formulate. I am just throwing something out there. Truthfully, I don't really know if I have a dog in this fight, but would like to see how we can help the Mooney owners that I encounter who get shafted on this stuff.

I know this hurts the RAJAY brand even though we have nothing to do with the situation.

Tom 

Where is the STC of value in all of this?  The owners already have a legal install, it is not voided.  To maintain it, I would think they could have owner produced parts (you could be subcontracted under their management) or duplicate parts could be PMAd.  It seems like an easier path.  My 2 cents, seems that going after the existing owner can lead to bad karma. 

[mike_elliott]

6 hours ago, tomgo2 said:

Today's price would be somewhere around $30,000.

Plus install, Which would make doing this add on lack fiscal substance when there are Bravos, 231's Rockets, 252's and TN's available that would surpass any benefit the STC would give. Maybe its time it dies.

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Tom,

You have to remember that here on MooneySpace we have the CB club(cheap bastards). They are known for being very frugal with their aviation dollars.  

Clarence

Clarence, in Canadian bucks, its a lot...just sayin...

 

[tomgo2]

All valid points to consider and appreciate your comments and all the others. I'm just throwing it out there as I am just about ready to throw in the towel on these STCs. Keep in mind owner produced parts are a bit of a slippery slope and still a hassle. The knowledge that the STCs are abandoned still cause harm to aircraft values and reduce ease of maintenance. No one will go to the trouble of PMA'ing parts by identicality/analysis due to the costs of certification, substantiation, analysis etc etc etc.

Try importing, exporting or selling a plane to a thorough buyer that can identify owner produced parts or deviations to whatever drawing they may possess.

Again, if there are any Attorneys based in FL that would like to explore options, please let me know.

 

[takair]

Have you reviewed the FAA order on abandoned STCs?  If the STC is not being supported from a continued airworthiness perspective, you may be able to work directly with the FAA.  Lots of info here:  

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/8110.120.pdf

 

[tomgo2]

Yes, thanks.  As much as I would like to do this for fun, I would need to own the STCs to in order to commercialize the solutions.  Any data released under the abandoned STC process cannot be used for commercial purposes.

[carusoam]

@tomgo2

AOPA has some good aviation attorneys... have you considered contacting them?

Make sure your membership is up to date... and join the legal program for additional legal support.  

See if @bluehighwayflyer may know somebody in the industry in that area of the country...?

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

@tomgo2

AOPA has some good aviation attorneys... have you considered contacting them?

Make sure your membership is up to date... and join the legal program for additional legal support.  

See if @bluehighwayflyer may know somebody in the industry in that area of the country...?

Best regards,

-a-

Problem is that it is not really an aviation issue from a legal standpoint. There are aviation elements,  like the FAA's process for transferring ownership of an STC, but, based on @tomgo2's description of the discussion with the "owner" that's the simplest piece of the legal pie.

There will only be a small percentage of lawyers on the AOPA list who would be capable, and it would be outside the Plan. But contacting a Plan attorney from the list is not a bad idea. Might just hit on an enthusiast who would be willing to donate the time and resources to put something together that may be acceptable to the STC holder. No need to be on the Plan for that. "Forcing" doesn't appear to me to be an especially viable option.

sorry I don't have a suggestion of someone.

[merrja]

Did the company simply close it's doors or did they file bankruptcy?  Are there any creditors that are owed?  If so there can be a claim made for any assets which has value the company owns (the STC's). 

Edited August 16, 2018 by merrja

[MikeOH]

WARNING!!!

I am NOT an attorney, my opinions ONLY:

1) Trying to "Force" this guy, via some lawsuit/judgement is going to be a complete waste of time and money.

2) You need to address his, valid IMHO, concerns about personal liability.  Thus, what you want from an attorney is advice on how to structure a deal that is "bullet proof protection" FOR HIM.  If you can convince him he will NOT have ANY future liability, I think he'd part with the STC.  Maybe create a shell company that takes 'ownership' of the STC 'asset"; then he, as the president of that corp sells either the STC or the company itself???  Something along those lines...

[carusoam]

Getting to know what drives the owner of the STCs could be really interesting...

There is plenty available to read up on.  Know it all...

Be prepared...

Liability or likability may not be his highest concerns...

Ancient PP memories of what I read only... no first hand experience with these STCs...

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

WARNING!!!

I am NOT an attorney, my opinions ONLY:

1) Trying to "Force" this guy, via some lawsuit/judgement is going to be a complete waste of time and money.

2) You need to address his, valid IMHO, concerns about personal liability.  Thus, what you want from an attorney is advice on how to structure a deal that is "bullet proof protection" FOR HIM.  

Leaving out the specifics of how to accomplish it, I think your opinion is a bullseye. It's about satisfying the "owner's" concerns, whatever they may be. That can be easy or it can be difficult.

[tomgo2]

Yeah, if it were a reasonable guy maybe.  I offered options and solutions as you all suggested and got short with me and said NO and hung up...

[mccdeuce]

As a J owner has thought it would be nice to have turbo normalization (and to quote a classic poet...) Let it Go....

to add a turbo today it would cost at least $30k in parts and $10k in labor. Cost of acquiring the STC will add to this cost. It’s just not worth it. When I bought my J there were comparable K models for not a lot more - I chose not to have a turbo charged model. If someone wants a turbo charger they are better going with one designed for it or looking at Missiles/Rockets.

[Guest tommy123]

The STC is his property to do with what he wishes. The idea of forcing him to sell it is absurd and can only have a chilling effect. 

If a new STC was financially viable someone would do it. Ray jay obviously doesn’t think it’s worth the money to go through the process which for a turbo would be expensive.

The STC holder has dug in his heels. A letter from a lawyer is likely to just piss him off. I doubt anyone is offering him any great sum of money that would quell his liability concerns.