Coming back in to the fold

[JRam]

A few years ago I made the uncomfortable decision to purchase a 66 Mooney M20E to get back in to aviation...because what says good decision like an impulse buy of something you will sit on 7000 feet above the ground?! I knew nothing about Mooney's but the mechanic at the FBO near my place worked on it and said it was a powerhouse. It was the best decision of my life, maybe not the best way to make it, but I flew everywhere. I got my IFR, did some mountain flying and went from coast to coast. I loved it. I didn't know much better as a 6'2" 220 lb man sitting in that little M20E, but I couldn't get enough for 500 hours over about 6 years. Then one day I was going overseas and the wife didn't want to babysit for a year so I decided to sell it.

And now, after being back 2 years, I want back in! I'm looking all over for Mooney's and I'm getting green with envy. As I progress through these forums and learn more and more, I eventually determine I need a 2018 Acclaim Ultra. I don't know if you guys realize this, but they don't sell those for the same price as my 66 M20E!! So I have to figure out an alternate view point. So I'm going to continue to peruse the forums here, but I think I'm leaning somewhere between an M20F and an M20J and could use any advice (don't worry, I'll try to make it easy by looking most of this up in your previous posts). 

My M20E was a cross country machine for me and I'm looking for the same, only with more amenities. I was flying minimums in IFR with a wing leveler that didn't level as much as turn to the left slower, so I want a strong auto-pilot and would love to have that coupled to the GPS. I want to wake up on a Friday and tell the wife we are heading 1200 miles away for a long weekend (or finally get to Oshkosh!) and not think twice about it so speed and distance are critical, it's usually just her and I. And I love having the new avionics, my first buy in the echo was a GNS430W which back then was sweet. 

So, hit me with some advice, berate me for giving up my workhorse, pat me on the head for my lack of knowledge... I'll take it all! I'm excited to get back in and be more informed this time! (I've been talking with Jimmy Garrison down in my old home town of San Antonio and he's great, but I may be annoying him by now with my lack of direction)

Justin Ramsey

[Niko182]

In my limited opinion, I'd have to say that if you can afford it, the M20M bravo, M20R ovation, and M20S eagle, are truly some of the most impressive single engine 2 person cross country machines available today. Fold the rear seats down, and you can fit practically everything you need. granted it is somewhat a pain to get big things in with the small door, but yesterday I was able to fit 4 full sized mountain bikes, 4 helmets, plus camping gear all in the aircraft. The slowest one of the aircraft above will do 180 knots cruise. and tomorrow, I leave from LA to Vancouver. there aren't many single engine piston aircraft as capable as the long body ovations is you're looking to travel long distance. it is an amazing 2 seating cross country plane and a good 4 seat aircraft, if you find planes that have the useful load. I got lucky with the eagle as it already have 1000 lbs and once the engine stc is done, I should have about 1150lbs. I have taken 4 people before and the back seats are comfier than the front seats. The eagle was priced around the same price as a high quality J. I gave up some pretty panel in a J, in gain of about 1 and a half feet of room, a descent useful load, and 30 knots.

[MIm20c]

I like your writing style, good luck on your search!

[DonMuncy]

Buy the newest you can comfortably afford up through the J. Above that, you have to decide whether the turbo is needed or worth it to go to a K. Above that, the decisions get tougher, as you have start deciding whether you want bigger engine vs economy. You will be happy with whichever one you get, and likely only slightly envious of the next steps up.

And watch the different individual planes within these parameters. Again, buy the best example of the level you can get. 

Lastly, try to figure out what equipment you "must" have. Letting the prior owner pay for nicer avionics, A/P, etc. is MUCH better than "adding it later".

[JRam]

15 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

In my limited opinion, I'd have to say that if you can afford it, the M20M bravo, M20R ovation, and M20S eagle, are truly some of the most impressive single engine 2 person cross country machines available today. Fold the rear seats down, and you can fit practically everything you need. granted it is somewhat a pain to get big things in with the small door, but yesterday I was able to fit 4 full sized mountain bikes, 4 helmets, plus camping gear all in the aircraft. The slowest one of the aircraft above will do 180 knots cruise. and tomorrow, I leave from LA to Vancouver. there aren't many single engine piston aircraft as capable as the long body ovations is you're looking to travel long distance. it is an amazing 2 seating cross country plane and a good 4 seat aircraft, if you find planes that have the useful load. I got lucky with the eagle as it already have 1000 lbs and once the engine stc is done, I should have about 1150lbs. I have taken 4 people before and the back seats are comfier than the front seats. The eagle was priced around the same price as a high quality J. I gave up some pretty panel in a J, in gain of about 1 and a half feet of room, a descent useful load, and 30 knots.

I love the insight, this is where I get tripped up. I start low at like $50K and end up around $160K = $180K and I'm trying to keep it near $100K or lower. But my pricetag keep growing for sure, because I'd love 30 knots, extra room and a decent useful load! Lol

[Oldguy]

Owning a J, I am a little bit biased. I am 6'5" and 220#, and my J is quite comfortable for me and my wife. Since mine is an '84 model, the back seats come out and fold down making the cargo space immense. Over the past year or so, I have upgraded my panel to have an Aspen PFD, Sandia Quattro 340, PMA 450B audio panel, and a KAS 297B Altitude pre-select. We hop in the plane to do anything from a 45 minute run to Chattanooga for breakfast to a 4 hour hop over to Texas to see my family. Being a mid-body, the J is quite a stable IFR platform and gets a solid 155-160 kts. on ~10 gph without the expense of the larger bore Continental engine models. I don't do it often, but it is relatively easy to get into and out of <3,000' runways with the two of us and full fuel. Right now, I have 900# useful load, and with full fuel, a 5+ hour flight is only limited by the occupants bladder capacity.

The J is really an F with the speed mods on it, so there are F's out there which are indistinguishable from a J. Look at @M20F-1968 as a good example. If you are after speed and just carrying the two of you the majority  of the time, you have already had the plane you need - an E model. To see how far you can take one, check out @Bob_Belville and his newly painted plane.

But whichever one you decide on, know you have chosen a great plane!

[JRam]

Just now, DonMuncy said:

Buy the newest you can comfortably afford up through the J. Above that, you have to decide whether the turbo is needed or worth it to go to a K. Above that, the decisions get tougher, as you have start deciding whether you want bigger engine vs economy. You will be happy with whichever one you get, and likely only slightly envious of the next steps up.

And watch the different individual planes within these parameters. Again, buy the best example of the level you can get. 

Lastly, try to figure out what equipment you "must" have. Letting the prior owner pay for nicer avionics, A/P, etc. is MUCH better than "adding it later".

Thanks! I really appreciate the advice. I've been fighting the "Do I buy low and add everything I want" or buy the closest I can get to what I want. I think you answered that question fairly concisely!

[JRam]

3 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Owning a J, I am a little bit biased. I am 6'5" and 220#, and my J is quite comfortable for me and my wife. Since mine is an '84 model, the back seats come out and fold down making the cargo space immense. Over the past year or so, I have upgraded my panel to have an Aspen PFD, Sandia Quattro 340, PMA 450B audio panel, and a KAS 297B Altitude pre-select. We hop in the plane to do anything from a 45 minute run to Chattanooga for breakfast to a 4 hour hop over to Texas to see my family. Being a mid-body, the J is quite a stable IFR platform and gets a solid 155-160 kts. on ~10 gph without the expense of the larger bore Continental engine models. I don't do it often, but it is relatively easy to get into and out of <3,000' runways with the two of us and full fuel. Right now, I have 900# useful load, and with full fuel, a 5+ hour flight is only limited by the occupants bladder capacity.

The J is really an F with the speed mods on it, so there are F's out there which are indistinguishable from a J. Look at @M20F-1968 as a good example. If you are after speed and just carrying the two of you the majority  of the time, you have already had the plane you need - an E model. To see how far you can take one, check out @Bob_Belville and his newly painted plane.

But whichever one you decide on, know you have chosen a great plane!

Thank you! Will look at both. There were a couple E's I was looking at but sold pretty quick at a pretty great price with what they had. 

 

I see some J's out there with the extended tanks pushing them up to 90+ gallons, would you find that to be any benefit at all given the bladder issues and the weight limitations?

[Oldguy]

9 minutes ago, JRam said:

Thank you! Will look at both. There were a couple E's I was looking at but sold pretty quick at a pretty great price with what they had. 

 

I see some J's out there with the extended tanks pushing them up to 90+ gallons, would you find that to be any benefit at all given the bladder issues and the weight limitations?

One of the pilots on here has the extended range tanks on his J model and has taken his plane from New York to south Florida non-stop. I believe there was also Arizona to New England non-stop trip he reported. Look up @201er. I think I recall it being an 11 hour flight. My cockpit would have resembled a swimming pool at that point. And I am sure him being 30 or so years younger than I am had nothing to do with that. 

I think the extended tanks add 34 gals. so the UL drops by 204 lbs.Since I can get nearly 6 hours with my fuel carrying capacity, I cannot see a need for me to have that length of time in the air, but I am sure there are those who do.

Yeah, the good Mooneys of any model seem to sell quickly these days and go for the price they are listed. I was fortunate enough to make the call on mine the day before its previous owner called to buy it back. The recommendation would be to move quickly on one you are interested in, and have funding ready to go.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, JRam said:

 I want to wake up on a Friday and tell the wife we are heading 1200 miles away for a long weekend (or finally get to Oshkosh!) and not think twice about it so speed and distance are critical, it's usually just her and I.

Just based on that sentence (fairly or unfairly), I'd suggest you should probably look past the J models.  No turbo means you are not going to be going too fast or too high which would be necessary for your mission over the mountains.  The J will get you high, or fast, but not both.  It's not impossible or unreasonable to fly over mountains in a J, of course, but it will take planning, foresight and luck, not the impromptu kind of trip your describing.

I don't think the J lacks range, though.  With 64 gallons running 9 gal/hour, that's 7+ hours of endurance.  Pee and Poo become larger factors than fuel.

[MIm20c]

40 minutes ago, JRam said:

Thanks! I really appreciate the advice. I've been fighting the "Do I buy low and add everything I want" or buy the closest I can get to what I want. I think you answered that question fairly concisely!

Another +1 for buying a plane already equipped.  Also don’t stretch the budget too much.  The first 3-4 years can be expensive to personalize and make up for a lack of maintenance.

[EricJ]

Just look around at what's out there and see what appeals to you, but I'd think a decent J model would be a good target.

 

[Browncbr1]

With your budget, you could find a clean original E and give a new panel.     For only two people and luggage, there isn’t much better value than an RV or an E model.   For four people, IMHO, The J model isn’t worth the extra cost unless you get a good deal on one of the later models with the 2900gw Stc.  Otherwise a clean F is a great way to save money and still be able to haul more than most Js.   Don’t forget you would need to insure according to hull value.     

Again, if you’re talking about two people going 1200 miles fast, have you though much about RV8 or lancairs?

[Bartman]

I love my J. At the time I purchased she was well equipped and other than adding the JPI EDM-700 all I did was add fuel change oil and fly for about 900 hours. I didn't buy the most expensive one on the market, but it was close and the best combination of airframe, avionics, and TSMO.  In the next year or two we will have to rebuild the engine and I considered trade in and upgrade, but in the end the 201 meets my mission perfectly so why bother. 

My best advise is get the best example of whichever model you can afford. Upgrades and new avionics are crazy expensive but come at a discount when you buy used and installed. 

[JRam]

41 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

With your budget, you could find a clean original E and give a new panel.     For only two people and luggage, there isn’t much better value than an RV or an E model.   For four people, IMHO, The J model isn’t worth the extra cost unless you get a good deal on one of the later models with the 2900gw Stc.  Otherwise a clean F is a great way to save money and still be able to haul more than most Js.   Don’t forget you would need to insure according to hull value.     

Again, if you’re talking about two people going 1200 miles fast, have you though much about RV8 or lancairs?

It's an interesting thought on the RV8's and Lancairs but I know even less about them and don't think experimental is my cup of tea. I continue to go back to the E, and definitely not ruling it out, but it's hard not to think about the benefits of the later models. My ability to spend goes above the $100K but each dollar spent on the investment is less time in the aircraft when I have it. 

I'm also trying to get used to the prices for hangers in the DC area. Just outside of the FRZ you are waiting in line to pay $450 for a hanger. Coming from Iowa ($125 / Texas ($200), I'm used to it cheaper and assume most costs follow that increase.But I do want a long term investment (money sink?) and I'm worried an E model for me right now stays with me only 3-5 years.

[JRam]

By the way, I recognize at this point that I may be in need of psychological assistance as I meander my mindset from spending way too much to not getting what I need. Dependent personality disorder? 

Darn decisions!

[Hank]

28 minutes ago, JRam said:

By the way, I recognize at this point that I may be in need of psychological assistance as I meander my mindset from spending way too much to not getting what I need. Dependent personality disorder? 

Darn decisions!

It's okay. Most of us here have it, too . . . .  

[KLRDMD]

36 minutes ago, JRam said:

It's an interesting thought on the RV8's and Lancairs but I know even less about them and don't think experimental is my cup of tea. 

I sold this to the current owner a few years ago who has just put it on the market.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&amp;t=154363

[JRam]

1 minute ago, KLRDMD said:

I sold this to the current owner a few years ago who has just put it on the market.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&amp;t=154363

Ok, I didn't want to admit it, but I have a Mooney tattoo on my butt. I can't allow it to be a mistake so I'm locked in to a Mooney!

In all seriousness though, the kit planes place an unreasonable fear in my head. I certainly admit it is an interesting thought to get that kind of efficiency / performance. But I'm also a pretty big guy and I'm not sure the useful load works out in my favor. Even if I get down to my college weight (200 lbs vs. 220ish) and go full fuel, the wife isn't going to like me asking her to step up the gym work so I can bring my dive gear!

I've really only flown a Cessna 172, Piper Arrow, Piper Cherokee and Mooney M20E...so obviously the Mooney leaves a mark.

[KLRDMD]

 

[JRam]

3 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

 

Thanks for this! 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, JRam said:

Ok, I didn't want to admit it, but I have a Mooney tattoo on my butt. I can't allow it to be a mistake so I'm locked in to a Mooney!

In all seriousness though, the kit planes place an unreasonable fear in my head. I certainly admit it is an interesting thought to get that kind of efficiency / performance. But I'm also a pretty big guy and I'm not sure the useful load works out in my favor. Even if I get down to my college weight (200 lbs vs. 220ish) and go full fuel, the wife isn't going to like me asking her to step up the gym work so I can bring my dive gear!

I've really only flown a Cessna 172, Piper Arrow, Piper Cherokee and Mooney M20E...so obviously the Mooney leaves a mark.

That was TMI 

For experimentals, an RV-10 will end up costing about the same range as a long-body Mooney.  Cruise is 150-170 kts, and the useful load is about 1100 lbs.  It's quite large inside, it's about the most spacious GA cabin I've sat in.  One day I'll finish mine, ETA is something like 20 years at this point.

[Browncbr1]

There are many RVs out there with high quality builds.  You just have to know what you’re looking at.   From what I understand, some rv8s cruise at 175-180kts.   

[flight2000]

Where are you in D.C.?  Richmond Executive (KFCI) has hangars available for $288 a month if you want to drive 90 minutes to get there....I was paying $487 a month out in Reno for a small t-hangar, so I feel your pain.

I used to own an M20E as well, so understand your lose and remorse for selling...to a degree...

Take a read through this thread as well.  Some good info in there to consider.

Cheers,

Brian

[JRam]

4 hours ago, flight2000 said:

Where are you in D.C.?  Richmond Executive (KFCI) has hangars available for $288 a month if you want to drive 90 minutes to get there....I was paying $487 a month out in Reno for a small t-hangar, so I feel your pain.

I used to own an M20E as well, so understand your lose and remorse for selling...to a degree...

Take a read through this thread as well.  Some good info in there to consider.

Cheers,

Brian

Thanks! I'll jump in to that post for sure! I'm leaning heavy J