TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update

[Navi]

About 2 hours ago I got an e-mail from Andrew saying essentially the same. 

2020 Was a costly year, budgets were decimated with Covid challenges. Parts supply terrible.  They hope to have several models approved next year, Mooney is closest and first. He says they are essentially writing off 2020..  His words... ".  Basically 2020 is just a lost year on a lot of projects."

Looks like 2020 is a "forgettable" year for them.. and a lot of other companies...

Nav

[Navi]

7 minutes ago, cliffy said:

So pardon me for jumping in BUT-

Weren't we told ALL the paperwork was in the hands of the FAA and we were just waiting for THEM to sign it off? That's been the story for well over a year and NOW we hear that BK has just started the certification process last week?

WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?

Some of us have been waiting almost 3 years for this and now AGAIN its just starting the process to certification? 

Pardon me if I don't hold my breath waiting for this one now.

 

Testing and design has been all done long ago.. They have engaged a partner specializing in the STC process to get this done and refine a framework to make it happen.. I suspect their "partner" may be starting "new" with all the ground work being done?  Speculation, just piecing together a fuzzy picture..   FWIW.. 

Your frustration is valid... 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Navi

[hammdo]

Damn, now I need to budget for the TT - after the G5 HSI - since David already wired up for the TT ;o)

-Don

 

[cliffy]

1 hour ago, Navi said:

Testing and design has been all done long ago.. They have engaged a partner specializing in the STC process to get this done and refine a framework to make it happen.. I suspect their "partner" may be starting "new" with all the ground work being done?  Speculation, just piecing together a fuzzy picture..   FWIW.. 

Your frustration is valid... 

Navi  Believe me when I say i understand what you are saying BUT "engaging a specialist" was brought up many months ago. What's the 'specialist" been doing all tis time?  

I've worked for large ECM companies with large dark programs and I've had my own couple of companies in my life. We're not talking rocket science here! Certifying Mooneys is a simple project. Really, its not that difficult to accomplish. 

If the hang up is the FAA then BK should say so and there are ways to get them to move (as I have postulated before. I've done it). Its real easy to sit back and say its someone else' fault' Its another thing altogether to get in there and get it done. 

They are missing a huge marketing opportunity with the one button push for wings level with the vast majority of older SE airplanes out there. They could push that aspect heavy with the right advertising and sell thousands of autopilots. 

How many hundreds would they sell to Mooney drivers? Lots of hundreds is my guess. Its just leaving money on the table in a downturn year. People have the money to spend for the right products. They are losing money every day of the delays. 

Here's a cut from their own website FIRST PAGE-

“We get feedback from customers in lots of different ways,” said Neumann, Vice President of Operations and Product Support for BendixKing. “But there’s nothing like talking with pilots who are passionate about airplanes and rely on our avionics every time they fly.”

How about this guy getting on here to get "feedback" on HIS operation?

He's free to call me any time  but somehow I think that would never happen. Talk is cheap, action is better than words, if he comes here I'll fwd my phone number to him so we can talk. 

I've got $100 saying it will never happen. 

Way back when, when BK took over TT much was commented on how bad BK customer service was in the past. Probably more true than false. History has a practice of repeating itself. 

I fear they are far to top heavy with the Honeywell way of business.

Next time I'm going through ABQ I plan on stopping in on them to see if they really do want to hear from pilots (always respectfully)

LEARN MORE

Edited December 18, 2020 by cliffy
added text

[Yetti]

if they are just starting certification with the FAA the Q1 is not really in the realistic window.  There are lots of other things backed up and everyone says their issue is that they are all still working from home.

[KLudwick]

20 hours ago, carusoam said:

@KLudwick

Got any insight of where on the list of planes getting certified for the GFC500....
 

Where are the B, C, and D Mooneys in the pre-1965 age group..?

Seems like good news... people with the older generation Mooneys are very interested in the GFC500...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Stay tuned - we aren't done with our pre-1965 friends yet!  

[Hank]

5 hours ago, KLudwick said:

Stay tuned - we aren't done with our pre-1965 friends yet!  

Many of us are waiting on the Tru Trak 5 AMU auto pilot, which doesn't require 20 AMU worth of other equipment to work, plus 10 AMU of total installation cost.

Putting 30-35K of equipment into a 50K plane isn't the best decision . . . .

Besides, doesn't Big G have their own thread here anyway?

[Baker Avionics]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

Many of us are waiting on the Tru Trak 5 AMU auto pilot, which doesn't require 20 AMU worth of other equipment to work, plus 10 AMU of total installation cost.

Putting 30-35K of equipment into a 50K plane isn't the best decision . . . .

Besides, doesn't Big G have their own thread here anyway?

I think everyone thinks that you can use any Nav or GPS for the TruTrak which incorrect. It still needs the same equipment as the GGC with the exception of with the Trutrak you can use either the Aspen or G5 unless you are a VFR type pilot in which you still need a digital, low end, GPS. FWIW.

[Hank]

Just now, Baker Avionics said:

I think everyone thinks that you can use any Nav or GPS for the TruTrak which incorrect. It still needs the same equipment as the GGC with the exception of with the Trutrak you can use either the Aspen or G5 unless you are a VFR type pilot in which you still need a digital, low end, GPS. FWIW.

My 430W will drive a Tru Trak. By itself, it won't drive the GFC 500. What other Garmin parts, at what other total prices plus installation, is required for even a single axis comparable to my Brittain AccuTrak and AccuFlite units?

[Baker Avionics]

Just now, Hank said:

My 430W will drive a Tru Trak. By itself, it won't drive the GFC 500. What other Garmin parts, at what other total prices plus installation, is required for even a single axis comparable to my Brittain AccuTrak and AccuFlite units?

You are correct however to drive the GGC, all you would need is a G5 system. So I do not see the 30k "other equipment" needed as some folks discuss. Sure the Trutrak is less, but if anyone has flown behind both of them, there is no comparison. It is all about choice and what you are looking for. Think of it this way, why do people buy Mooney's vs a 172? That's pretty much what happens when  GFC is compared to a Trutrak. 

[Hank]

Just now, Baker Avionics said:

You are correct however to drive the GGC, all you would need is a G5 system. So I do not see the 30k "other equipment" needed as some folks discuss. Sure the Trutrak is less, but if anyone has flown behind both of them, there is no comparison. It is all about choice and what you are looking for. Think of it this way, why do people buy Mooney's vs a 172? That's pretty much what happens when  GFC is compared to a Trutrak. 

So what does "only a G5 system" cost, installed? I honestly don't know, people here throw around too many unfamiliar part numbers for me to keep track of. I'll be needing something soon, hope my Brittain lasts until I can figure it all out. Ballpark pricing plus average labor hours will be good enough, nobody knows for sure until they dig in and see what all is behind the panel.

The G5 will replace my 6-pack, right? With airspeed and altitude readings that change without moving and can't be read at a glance to tell if I'm going off altitude, with the magically disappearing VSI? I love, love, love my IVSI.

[Baker Avionics]

Just now, Hank said:

So what does "only a G5 system" cost, installed? I honestly don't know, people here throw around too many unfamiliar part numbers for me to keep track of. I'll be needing something soon, hope my Brittain lasts until I can figure it all out. Ballpark pricing plus average labor hours will be good enough, nobody knows for sure until they dig in and see what all is behind the panel.

The G5 will replace my 6-pack, right? With airspeed and altitude readings that change without moving and can't be read at a glance to tell if I'm going off altitude, with the magically disappearing VSI? I love, love, love my IVSI.

The G5 system will run less than 3k for parts and should be included with the GFC500 labor, to be honest because it is a part of the AP system. At most if you are going to separate, the G5 installed should cost about 5k. It will not replace the 6 pack. It can replace the Attitude or DG is all. The rest of the info on it is secondary, not primary.

[carusoam]

38 minutes ago, Hank said:

Many of us are waiting on the Tru Trak 5 AMU auto pilot, which doesn't require 20 AMU worth of other equipment to work, plus 10 AMU of total installation cost.

Putting 30-35K of equipment into a 50K plane isn't the best decision . . . .

Besides, doesn't Big G have their own thread here anyway?

I take the responsibility for this one...  

There was some thread drift just before... as somebody was relating the news regarding post-65 Mooneys...

Fast on the trigger, I invited our big G guy to see the interest for the pre-65 birds...

I wanted his input...  even though it is right in the middle of a really good TT thread...

So... my apologies... and I’m doubly impressed with the brevity of @KLudwick’s response... 

And.... Now he has a better feeling of the cost sensitivity for some MSer’s in the category...

 

For the BK guys... Typical BK marketing... Put a date on those announcements... then stand by the date...

If you mean Q1 next year... write Q1 2020...

I see the opportunity to put this off again... in three weeks, next year becomes magically Q1 2022

Know that Covid 19 is not an excuse to be a year late...

the healthcare workers didn’t go on strike...

People developing Vaccines didn’t take any time off...

the firemen didn’t go on strike...

the grocery stores stayed open...

Everything has changed, except BK...

Change would be good...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Baker Avionics]

Just now, carusoam said:

I take the responsibility for this one...  

There was some thread drift just before... as somebody was relating the news regarding post-65 Mooneys...

Fast on the trigger, I invited our big G guy to see the interest for the pre-65 birds...

I wanted his input...  even though it is right in the middle of a really good TT thread...

So... my apologies... and I’m doubly impressed with the brevity of @KLudwick’s response... 

And.... Now he has a better feeling of the cost targets for some MSer’s in the category...

 

For the BK guys... Typical BK marketing... Put a date on those announcements... then stand by the date...

If you mean Q1 next year... write Q1 2020...

Know that Covid 19 is not an excuse to be a year late...

the healthcare workers didn’t go on strike...

People developing Vaccines didn’t take any time off...

the firemen didn’t go on strike...

the grocery stores stayed open...

Everything has changed, except BK...

Change would be good...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Good post Anthony!

[carusoam]

Thanks Greg!

I could have done better...

I knew where I was going wrong... but I was stuck like a deer in the headlights... 

I’ll keep working on it...

Best regards,

-a-

[Baker Avionics]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Thanks Greg!

I could have done better...

I knew where I was going wrong... but I was stuck like a deer in the headlights... 

I’ll keep working on it...

Best regards,

-a-

Lol, it's all good brother! Hope all is well with you and you have a great season! 

[bmcconnaha]

Good ol BK. I emailed them (our dealer rep)the other day asking about the 230 autopilot. I have a century 2000. I’m not super interested in a GFC, but would be interested in the 230 or a TT. I really just wanted to know what I needed to do to get the aerovue touch, the 230, and if the touch was integrated with the JPI like they said they were working on. They had a dealer promotion that expired, and it was rather enticing. if I could get the order in before it expired, I was seriously kicking the idea around. We are not garmin dealers, and I use my aircraft for avionics demos, so this might be a good opportunity..... still waiting for a response. I haven’t had much dealing with BK, but was warned ahead of time. Too bad. The aerovue touch looked kind of cool.


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[Baker Avionics]

5 minutes ago, bmcconnaha said:

Good ol BK. I emailed them (our dealer rep)the other day asking about the 230 autopilot. I have a century 2000. I’m not super interested in a GFC, but would be interested in the 230 or a TT. I really just wanted to know what I needed to do to get the aerovue touch, the 230, and if the touch was integrated with the JPI like they said they were working on. They had a dealer promotion that expired, and it was rather enticing. if I could get the order in before it expired, I was seriously kicking the idea around. We are not garmin dealers, and I use my aircraft for avionics demos, so this might be a good opportunity..... still waiting for a response. I haven’t had much dealing with BK, but was warned ahead of time. Too bad. The aerovue touch looked kind of cool.


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Bryan, call me Monday so we can talk about this and I need to get you here in January too. I have an opening for you. I got your message just been busy like you couldn't believe. 

[cliffy]

28 minutes ago, Baker Avionics said:

I think everyone thinks that you can use any Nav or GPS for the TruTrak which incorrect. It still needs the same equipment as the GGC with the exception of with the Trutrak you can use either the Aspen or G5 unless you are a VFR type pilot in which you still need a digital, low end, GPS. FWIW.

OK I'm lost here Greg

What am I  missing - what besides a compatible  GPS input and pitot/static does the TT need to perform  (up/down, left/right, alt hold, etc) the internal functions that are built into the TT autopilot?

All I want is GPS tracking or wings level and with pitch command and alt hold nothing more.

I won't need the extra 2 AIRINC inputs as I see it. 

Can't one fly legally IFR with just one WAAS GPS unit and nothing more in the panel? Won't the TT do its functions (down to 700' manual VNAV) with just that input? 

In looking at the block install diagram I see nothing more required?

I guess I'm lost or its too late at night to understand what you are saying.

And Thanks for all your comments here. It is much appreciated.

 

[bmcconnaha]

Bryan, call me Monday so we can talk about this and I need to get you here in January too. I have an opening for you. I got your message just been busy like you couldn't believe. 

I’ll call you Monday afternoon when I get free if that works for you. Still debating on having these aspens I have installed, or having the dynon installed. Half of me thinks I could get by with the aspens for a while coupled to the century. The other half half says wait for the dynon. Could add the engine monitor to the dynon system and kill two birds with one stone.


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[ArtVandelay]

OK I'm lost here Greg
What am I  missing - what besides a compatible  GPS input and pitot/static does the TT need to perform  (up/down, left/right, alt hold, etc) the internal functions that are built into the TT autopilot?
All I want is GPS tracking or wings level and with pitch command and alt hold nothing more.
I won't need the extra 2 AIRINC inputs as I see it. 
Can't one fly legally IFR with just one WAAS GPS unit and nothing more in the panel? Won't the TT do its functions (down to 700' manual VNAV) with just that input? 
In looking at the block install diagram I see nothing more required?
I guess I'm lost or its too late at night to understand what you are saying.
And Thanks for all your comments here. It is much appreciated.
 

I think TT needs an additional box to do the GPSS, like STEC has that sits between the GPS navigator and autopilot.
TT doesn’t have electric trim option or YD...so you need to be careful throwing around installation costs, you can’t compare a GFC 4 servos installation which means GPSS is provided to a TT 2 servo installation with only GPS navigation.

[FlySafe]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

So what does "only a G5 system" cost, installed? I honestly don't know, people here throw around too many unfamiliar part numbers for me to keep track of. I'll be needing something soon, hope my Brittain lasts until I can figure it all out. Ballpark pricing plus average labor hours will be good enough, nobody knows for sure until they dig in and see what all is behind the panel.

The G5 will replace my 6-pack, right? With airspeed and altitude readings that change without moving and can't be read at a glance to tell if I'm going off altitude, with the magically disappearing VSI? I love, love, love my IVSI.

 

10 minutes ago, FlySafe said:

Here are the cost figures i received yesterday from my regional shop, assuming you already have 1 G5 AI installed. 

 

ADD GFC500 2 Axis with no trim

GFC500 Parts:    $8250 (Garmin’s base price for Mooney's is higher than advertised $6999)

Labor:                  $4000

ADD Trim

Trim Kit                $2400

Labor:                  $1000

ADD Interface to IFR GPS/Nav box

GAD29B and the GMU11        $1000

Labor:                                       $1500

ADD 2^nd G5, HSI

G5            $3175

Labor:      $1500

 

[Hank]

So mynearlier post.about the new, "inexpensive" Garmin autopilot needing an additional 30 AMU of Garmin "stuff" to work was correct. Above is a detailed actual quote for 15 AMU equipment plus 8 AMU labor, assuming that one G5 is already installed, so add at least another 4.5 AMU for that.

That's 20 AMU "stuff" plus 10 AMU labor, and the autopilot has not yet been purchased.

@Baker Avionics, what happened to the "inexpensive autopilot"????? How much more is the AP plus install? Let's spend 75% or more of my Mooney's value to add one! Sure thing . . . . .

[Sandman993]

One of the G5’s is more difficult to install and therefore more cost than the other... I was told 6k + tax drive out.

I would be disappointed to learn the phantom tt can’t fly an approach without a gadget to do the gpss work. I thought it simply received a signal from the approach plate in the ifr gps and flew that.

the biggest and most important reason I wanted a digital autopilot for this single fan airplane was, the altitude hold and lateral guidance. Already get lateral guidance from the gtn 750 to century and have gpss to process the language barrier between digital to analog fly the approach. No vertical guidance. And yes, I know that gpss doesn’t work for digital to digital.

perhaps us folk with the century autopilot should meet in mineral wells for an autopilot tune up party. Save ourselves some $$$. They might have a not so expensive solution to my altitude issue. As the tt drags on for years, that may become the desired outcome.

if this covid crap ever gets sorted out, I intend to spend a sizable chunk of my kids inheritance on airplane gas and hotels. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Baker Avionics]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I think TT needs an additional box to do the GPSS, like STEC has that sits between the GPS navigator and autopilot.
TT doesn’t have electric trim option or YD...so you need to be careful throwing around installation costs, you can’t compare a GFC 4 servos installation which means GPSS is provided to a TT 2 servo installation with only GPS navigation.

TT does not need the "extra box" aside from a G5 or Aspen for GPSS.