20C sitting a while

[Jerry Pressley]

where Are you going to get the rubber fuel caps????

[Jacknik]

Brand new noob, same old question…

Other than an engine and rust, what do you need to worry about from a plane sitting for a long time?

Details:

I’m looking at a 62 C right now (4130 TTAF). Seems like 2 owners ago had it for almost 20 years and only flew it to 15 to 20 hours annually (going 2 yrs between annuals at least twice). Red flag #1…

Current owner bought it in ~2019 and claims to have put an overhauled engine in it to include factory new cylinders (haven’t seen the engine log yet)…

Current owner flew over 100 hrs in the last year but has it back up for sale (red flag #2). Also claims to have a working Autopilot with Alt/hold. Paint/Interior look 6.5ish. Not much else to redeem it other than ADS-B tail beacon, O&N bladders (idk how old) and 201 panel & cowling…

I can only assume the current owner had a few pricy annuals and other tid bits to fix. Looks like he had the nose gear repaired with 3 new disks added. Its never been to an MSC from what I can tell and I believe it spent much of the last 20 years in NC near a beach.

Would a Mooney savvy A&P pre-buy be enough to catch remaining gremlins? Am I being to harsh on a vintage plane (it is currently in annual and flying)?

[gsxrpilot]

Where is the plane sitting now? Is it still in NC? If so, and it's in annual, get it over to AGL in Morganton and let Lynn tell you. I certainly wouldn't trust just anyone to evaluate it. But Lynn could tell you for sure.

 

[rbridges]

17 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Where is the plane sitting now? Is it still in NC? If so, and it's in annual, get it over to AGL in Morganton and let Lynn tell you. I certainly wouldn't trust just anyone to evaluate it. But Lynn could tell you for sure.

 

I agree. I'd invest in a thorough prebuy with Lynn or Joey at Cole aviation. 

[Ragsf15e]

30 minutes ago, Jacknik said:

Brand new noob, same old question…

 

Other than an engine and rust, what do you need to worry about from a plane sitting for a long time?

 

Details:

 

I’m looking at a 62 C right now (4130 TTAF). Seems like 2 owners ago had it for almost 20 years and only flew it to 15 to 20 hours annually (going 2 yrs between annuals at least twice). Red flag #1…

 

Current owner bought it in ~2019 and claims to have put an overhauled engine in it to include factory new cylinders (haven’t seen the engine log yet)…

 

Current owner flew over 100 hrs in the last year but has it back up for sale (red flag #2). Also claims to have a working Autopilot with Alt/hold. Paint/Interior look 6.5ish. Not much else to redeem it other than ADS-B tail beacon, O&N bladders (idk how old) and 201 panel & cowling…

 

I can only assume the current owner had a few pricy annuals and other tid bits to fix. Looks like he had the nose gear repaired with 3 new disks added. Its never been to an MSC from what I can tell and I believe it spent much of the last 20 years in NC near a beach.

 

Would a Mooney savvy A&P pre-buy be enough to catch remaining gremlins? Am I being to harsh on a vintage plane (it is currently in annual and flying)?

 

It could be fine if it really has a new engine and has been flying a good bit lately.  Still, it’s worth having a Mooney knowledgeable mechanic look deeply for cracks and corrosion on the spar, stub spar, etc. 

Bladders probably hold up just fine without useage.  Empty tanks for many years would dry out sealant if it didn’t have bladders.

I might ask why the nose gear was rebuilt, just new pucks?

[Jacknik]

23 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

It could be fine if it really has a new engine and has been flying a good bit lately.  Still, it’s worth having a Mooney knowledgeable mechanic look deeply for cracks and corrosion on the spar, stub spar, etc. 

Bladders probably hold up just fine without useage.  Empty tanks for many years would dry out sealant if it didn’t have bladders.

I might ask why the nose gear was rebuilt, just new pucks?

Thanks for the quick replies!

Replaced both the truss and steering horn too...

Seems like you all are saying this could be as decent a plane as any... I'll consider moving forward with pre-buy but the guy wants about 10k too much based on what I know and have put into the Mooney Flyer Calc... I would need him to come down on the price first.

[glafaille]

There are cheaper engine shops where overhauls don’t cost $30,000 and some on this board have used them with good results.  You could also find a good used mid time engine to swap.  Also possible to remove the engine, split the case, inspect, repair as necessary and re-assemble for much less than an overhaul.  Maybe worth it, maybe not.  You need a sympathetic A&P to help you navigate this puzzle without going broke.  I’ll bet Alan Fox has engines, he is a member here, look him up and ask.

http://www.jewellaviation.com/overhauls.htm

 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Jacknik said:

Thanks for the quick replies!

Replaced both the truss and steering horn too...

Seems like you all are saying this could be as decent a plane as any... I'll consider moving forward with pre-buy but the guy wants about 10k too much based on what I know and have put into the Mooney Flyer Calc... I would need him to come down on the price first.

Structure the deal properly so the seller is on the hook for anything airworthiness found in prebuy.  If something big comes up he either fixes it or gives back your deposit.

Then it’s on you to get a good prebuy at a good shop.

[Ragsf15e]

And maybe check into the nose gear swap... doesn’t have a new / new-used prop on there too does it?

[Old Chub]

Sorry I have to reply here about a comment from Jacknik.

"Brand new noob, same old question…"  as his response to Jerry Pressley. 

There are not that many people that know parts and the mooney product line like Jerry or his son so to call him a "noob" is a real insult 

I personally know both Jerry and his son and find their knowledge of mooney models and configurations very informative as I call on Jerry's son often for information

 

Regards,

 

Warren 

A&P, IA, DAR

 

[Ragsf15e]

7 minutes ago, Old Chub said:

Sorry I have to reply here about a comment from Jacknik.

"Brand new noob, same old question…"  as his response to Jerry Pressley. 

There are not that many people that know parts and the mooney product line like Jerry or his son so to call him a "noob" is a real insult 

I personally know both Jerry and his son and find their knowledge of mooney models and configurations very informative as I call on Jerry's son often for information

 

Regards,

 

Warren 

A&P, IA, DAR

 

I believe you about Jerry, but I don’t think Jacknick was saying anything about him, certainly not anything negative. It appears the comment from Jerry was 2 years ago.

 I guess I just think jacknick wasn’t responding to Jerry as much as just referring to himself as a noob and asking his questions.

[Jacknik]

41 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

And maybe check into the nose gear swap... doesn’t have a new / new-used prop on there too does it?

Saw that it had a prop rebuild back in 2017 but havent seen the prop or engine logs yet. Sounds like you're assuming a prop strike and/or hard landing? I didn't see any ntsb report... but good point!

[Jacknik]

23 minutes ago, Old Chub said:

Sorry I have to reply here about a comment from Jacknik.

"Brand new noob, same old question…"  as his response to Jerry Pressley. 

There are not that many people that know parts and the mooney product line like Jerry or his son so to call him a "noob" is a real insult 

I personally know both Jerry and his son and find their knowledge of mooney models and configurations very informative as I call on Jerry's son often for information

 

Regards,

 

Warren 

A&P, IA, DAR

 

Definitely was not calling anyone a noob but myself. Just wanted to show I was reading old post (instead a of creating a new one for the same topic) but adding new questions.

[Old Chub]

Jacknik,

Sorry I was reading the post in order and did not see the post dates.  My misunderstanding.

 

Warren 

[carusoam]

Just be aware of old planes that sit...

Compared to old planes that fly...

If you had to choose blindly... the flying plane is a much better bet...

I bought My C after it sat for two years...

Stuck a valve and bent it on departure within my first 10hrs... that was a surprise...

 

So... if you have the chance to compare Two planes closely...  Before spending any money... do the added legwork... see them up close... read their logs... line by line...

PPIs are expensive to find out stuff you could have figured out on your own...

 

Don’t get me wrong... I loved my My M20C... it just lived a hard life outdoors... I got lucky...

The good news... you don’t have to choose a plane blindly... a PPI at either AGL or Cole... is the best way to protect your wallet...

A good Transition Training is the best way to protect your hide...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Ragsf15e]

13 hours ago, Jacknik said:

Saw that it had a prop rebuild back in 2017 but havent seen the prop or engine logs yet. Sounds like you're assuming a prop strike and/or hard landing? I didn't see any ntsb report... but good point!

Exactly.  So having the engine rebuilt recently is good because that’s 75% of what deteriorates when an airplane sits for a long time.  Did it sit inside or outside or unknown?  That will affect spar corrosion and fuel seals (you said this has bladders though).

My question with the nose gear... if it had a prop strike recently, you need to be very careful.  It could actually be a good thing if the engine and airframe were professionally repaired iaw with all the requirements for sudden stoppage.  Was the recent overhaul before or after the prop strike?  If after, who did the sudden stoppage inspection and what did they do?  This should be very clearly documented or walk away.  If everything was done by the book, there’s nothing wrong with proceeding on the airplane.  If anything shady pops up in the engine, prop, airframe repair, walk.

If it just had the prop rebuilt, that doesn’t sound like a prop strike though, so you might just need to keep it in mind as you go through the logs.

[MikeOH]

Can't seem to keep my fingers off the keyboard...please don't take offense.

1) My number one criteria was a plane that had been flown a bunch (50-100 hours/year) for the last several years.  I figured that the important bugs must have been worked out or the PO couldn't possibly have flown that much.

2) All other things being equal I'd pay a bunch more (like $20K+) for a plane that has NOT been sitting.  More I think about it, I'd probably walk from a FREE plane that had been sitting for a decade; see number 3.

3) Are you buying because you want to fly when you want, where you want... RELIABLY?  Or, are you a guy that enjoys turning wrenches, hangar flying, etc MORE than flying?

4) What's your FLYING budget?  NOT your purchasing budget.  Don't ever confuse the two: the FIRST one is what you MUST make sure you can afford.  IOW, don't buy cheap because your after purchase maintenance costs may eat up ALL, and then some, of your FLYING budget.

 

[chriscalandro]

On 5/19/2020 at 6:28 PM, Jacknik said:

... I can only assume ...

 

Nailed it with this sentence.  I tend to believe anything you are interested is worth taking a look at.  Not every old airplane that has been sitting is garbage.  Many of them are good and resurectable, but if you averaged and agreed with the mentality of people around here you probably would not see a Mooney over 10 years old that was still airworthy.

 

I like to think that the old Mooneys are excellent platforms to build the airplane you want, the way you want to do it.  Sure you will spend WAY more than it's worth, but you will have something you are proud of that meets your specifications.  Or you can do a kit plane.

 

I bought my Mooney for mid to high 20s that had good bones and was mechanically pretty sound.  I have put a lot of effort and money into avionics, accessories, addons, and currently I'm in the process of installing a full glass panel.  When I am done I will probably be 80k into it, BUT I will have an airplane that is fast, economical, with a johnson bar (vs electric), a glass panel, a state of the art autopilot, and much much more.  A newer similarly equipped airplane with what I have in my old Mooney would be well deep into the 6 figures.  It would have higher maint costs, higher insurance rates,  and more wear on the electronics. 

Because of this process I know every inch of my airplane.  It's not always about the resale value, it's about the value it brings to you.  These old Mooneys have a TON of value for a great price and if it's something you plan to keep a while I don't see ANY issue with getting upside down on it to build the platform you want on a budget much less than a newer airplane.  I firmly believe there is no greater value than what an old Mooney can get you, and no poorer a value than that of the new Mooney offerings.

Edited May 22, 2020 by chriscalandro

[Jacknik]

On 5/20/2020 at 11:38 AM, Ragsf15e said:

Exactly.  So having the engine rebuilt recently is good because that’s 75% of what deteriorates when an airplane sits for a long time.  Did it sit inside or outside or unknown?  That will affect spar corrosion and fuel seals (you said this has bladders though).

My question with the nose gear... if it had a prop strike recently, you need to be very careful.  It could actually be a good thing if the engine and airframe were professionally repaired iaw with all the requirements for sudden stoppage.  Was the recent overhaul before or after the prop strike?  If after, who did the sudden stoppage inspection and what did they do?  This should be very clearly documented or walk away.  If everything was done by the book, there’s nothing wrong with proceeding on the airplane.  If anything shady pops up in the engine, prop, airframe repair, walk.

If it just had the prop rebuilt, that doesn’t sound like a prop strike though, so you might just need to keep it in mind as you go through the logs.

Thanks, I see nothing recent in the AC logs about a prop strike but do see the engine was sent off for overhaul in 2017. That is about the same time they claim the prop rebuild happened. Both taken care of at a shop well respected on MS. I'm still waiting on the engine and prop logs to complete my judgement but so far it looks decent... more to follow

[Jacknik]

15 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

Nailed it with this sentence.  I tend to believe anything you are interested is worth taking a look at.  Not every old airplane that has been sitting is garbage.  Many of them are good and resurectable, but if you averaged and agreed with the mentality of people around here you probably would not see a Mooney over 10 years old that was still airworthy.

I like to think that the old Mooneys are excellent platforms to build the airplane you want, the way you want to do it.  Sure you will spend WAY more than it's worth, but you will have something you are proud of that meets your specifications.  Or you can do a kit plane.

Thanks for the insight. I think this one only really needs avionics (I know that's not cheep). Its got enough for basic IFR, and may be good until a unit fails...

As usual its not close by. Taking a trip to give it a good once over in person is the next step. I'm simply waiting until I get and can review the rest of the logs...

It does seem the current owner may have dealt with most of the pain/cost of returning it service. I just wanted to know that a good pre-buy would catch anything remaining... it sounds like most are saying yes (though a few are saying run).

[Ragsf15e]

46 minutes ago, Jacknik said:

Thanks for the insight. I think this one only really needs avionics (I know that's not cheep). Its got enough for basic IFR, and may be good until a unit fails...

As usual its not close by. Taking a trip to give it a good once over in person is the next step. I'm simply waiting until I get and can review the rest of the logs...

It does seem the current owner may have dealt with most of the pain/cost of returning it service. I just wanted to know that a good pre-buy would catch anything remaining... it sounds like most are saying yes (though a few are saying run).

You’ll catch at least 90% of the big problems with a quality prebuy turned into annual if you use a quality shop as has been recommended above (AGL, Cole, etc).  It might cost you to find out though because you’re on the hook for $1-2K price of the prebuy.

[Jacknik]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

You’ll catch at least 90% of the big problems with a quality prebuy turned into annual if you use a quality shop as has been recommended above (AGL, Cole, etc).  It might cost you to find out though because you’re on the hook for $1-2K price of the prebuy.

I can deal with that cost. AGL has quotes for both that seem fair. My only real question is how to get it to them? Does the buyer pay for a ferry pilot or should the seller agree to take it in? Guessing its up to negotiation but curious what's normal. Its only about 150 nm away...

[chriscalandro]

If you’re going to take it 150 miles away that cost is in you 

[gsxrpilot]

31 minutes ago, Jacknik said:

I can deal with that cost. AGL has quotes for both that seem fair. My only real question is how to get it to them? Does the buyer pay for a ferry pilot or should the seller agree to take it in? Guessing its up to negotiation but curious what's normal. Its only about 150 nm away...

Typically the buyer pays for the ferry pilot and fuel to move the plane to your preferred shop for the pre-buy. 

As the buyer, try to make is super easy for the seller to agree to your choice of shop for the pre-buy. That usually includes...

1. Look the plane over as closely as you can yourself. 
2. Get another experienced Mooney owner to look it over with you.
3. Go over the logs and even get the pre-buy shop to go over the logs before taking the plane to them. (You'll pay something for this service)
4. Pay for a title search.
5. Come to an agreement on the purchase price of the plane assuming it is as advertised, and airworthy.
6. Sign a purchase contract that stipulates these terms.
7. Give the seller a deposit of between 10% and $5K for a sub $100K airplane. (Or use escrow.)
8. Let the seller chose the ferry pilot and you will pay all expenses of the ferry pilot, fuel, etc. to get the airplane to the shop for the pre-buy.

This all shows the seller you are serious about buying the airplane and are going in with your eyes open. It should also ensure you've done all the due diligence possible before laying out cash for the deposit, ferry, and pre-buy. 

[Jacknik]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Typically the buyer pays for the ferry pilot and fuel to move the plane to your preferred shop for the pre-buy. 

As the buyer, try to make is super easy for the seller to agree to your choice of shop for the pre-buy. That usually includes...

1. Look the plane over as closely as you can yourself. 
2. Get another experienced Mooney owner to look it over with you.
3. Go over the logs and even get the pre-buy shop to go over the logs before taking the plane to them. (You'll pay something for this service)
4. Pay for a title search.
5. Come to an agreement on the purchase price of the plane assuming it is as advertised, and airworthy.
6. Sign a purchase contract that stipulates these terms.
7. Give the seller a deposit of between 10% and $5K for a sub $100K airplane. (Or use escrow.)
8. Let the seller chose the ferry pilot and you will pay all expenses of the ferry pilot, fuel, etc. to get the airplane to the shop for the pre-buy.

This all shows the seller you are serious about buying the airplane and are going in with your eyes open. It should also ensure you've done all the due diligence possible before laying out cash for the deposit, ferry, and pre-buy. 

Thanks, that's very detailed and sound step by step advice! I had something near that in mind but not exactly. If we get that far I'll use this. Right now I'm being patient and waiting on digital logs...