m20c first plane, Virtual Reality training?

[jjmango18]

@ryoder Can I ask you much you paid for your plane? I keep thinking that if I buy the best plane I can ... maintenance will be "relatively" low. Couple grand a year. Yes, I spent about $2,000 on my sim rig. I keep debating on selling that and using it to fly for the next two years. I just want to fly IFR and feel like it can help me learn. How was your insurance?  

[DXB]

2 minutes ago, jjmango18 said:

I keep thinking that if I buy the best plane I can ... maintenance will be "relatively" low. Couple grand a year. 

The only way to make total annual maintenance cost this cheap is to get your A&P license and do most everything yourself, or have a special relationship with a trusted A&P.  Otherwise 2K won't even buy your base annual inspection (without fixing anything) at either of the two Mooney service centers in my area. I'm sure it's no cheaper around Boston.  Budget to spend a solid 10k on maintenance in the first year, and at least 5k in subsequent years, with some years being more.  If you are diligent about shaking out problems addressing deferred maintenance items early on, the work will tend to get simpler and cheaper over time, but problems will still come up. 

Buying a good air frame and engine means avoiding catastrophic problems that can lead to 10s of thousands of dollars of unanticipated expenses (e.g. an engine overhaul or wing spar corrosion repair).  If you buy carefully and also are super lucky, you might spend 5k on maintenance in the first year, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it.   Also don't forget to stash 15k-30k somewhere for an overhaul.  Members here certainly will attest that an overhaul can come at unexpected times despite having done everything right. 

 

[Hank]

Also, in the certified airplane world, $20K will buy and install a WAAS GPS or an autopilot, but not both. Depending on your choices, there may be a little bit left over . . .

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, jjmango18 said:

I keep thinking that if I buy the best plane I can ... maintenance will be "relatively" low. Couple grand a year. 

 

2 hours ago, DXB said:

The only way to make total annual maintenance cost this cheap is to get your A&P license and do most everything yourself, or have a special relationship with a trusted A&P.  Otherwise 2K won't even buy your base annual inspection (without fixing anything) at either of the two Mooney service centers in my area. I'm sure it's no cheaper around Boston.  Budget to spend a solid 10k on maintenance in the first year, and at least 5k in subsequent years, with some years being more.  If you are diligent about shaking out problems addressing deferred maintenance items early on, the work will tend to get simpler and cheaper over time, but problems will still come up. 

Buying a good air frame and engine means avoiding catastrophic problems that can lead to 10s of thousands of dollars of unanticipated expenses (e.g. an engine overhaul or wing spar corrosion repair).  If you buy carefully and also are super lucky, you might spend 5k on maintenance in the first year, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it.   Also don't forget to stash 15k-30k somewhere for an overhaul.  Members here certainly will attest that an overhaul can come at unexpected times despite having done everything right. 

 

I think that if you buy the right plane, a couple of grand a year in maintenance is about right. My first M20C was that way. But those airplanes are not easy to find. They need to be flying regularly, have a well documented, excellent maintenance history, an owner who never skimps on anything and does all recommended maintenance, it needs to be relatively up to date with all SB's, AD's complied with, and even panel updates done as well. And did I mention regular use. Find that airplane, and all you'll need to do is maintain. And yes, on an M20C, that can be done for $2K/year.

But there are no guarantees. Good research, a proper pre-buy inspection, get to know the seller, and excellent intuition, will help. But there is no magic formula. So if you're going to buy a plane, you should be prepared for the worst case scenario. Have 10% of the purchase price in hand in cash for unexpected but immediate needs. Be prepared to spend $10K in the first year or at the first annual. And be able to put your hands on $25-$35K (credit card, 2nd mortgage, investment account, etc) if you wake up one day and need an engine.  This is all worst case, but being this prepared sure makes the ownership experience more enjoyable and less stressful.

[Warren]

There is always something and it always costs money.  I bought a regularly flown M20K, fresh factory engine with about 100 hours. I added about 150 hours in the first year.

First annual

Vacuum pump - $350 (died the month before annual, only needed for speed brakes so I deferred it for a month)

Alternator drive coupling - $500

Alternator rebuild - because it was out of the plane (don't remember cost but it was inexpensive),

Prop control cable end - signs of wear, will need to be replaced soon - $450

Wheel bearings were noisy, turned out to have rust spots (not sure how this made it through the pre-buy/annual the previous year, but another $400-500). 

These are only parts costs.  Add ?? hours of labor to replace and it adds up.  Then add the normal labor and service from an annual.

After all this I know I have a regularly flown airplane that has been maintained and upgraded over the years.  I can't imagine what a hanger queen would cost.  10k might be cheap.  Things just need to be maintained and airplane parts are crazy expensive compared to automotive.  According to Paul, I got out of my first annual at about 5k and should consider myself lucky.  Hopefully going forward they will be closer to the 3k range.

The guys here have a lot of experience and although shocking, the numbers are real.  This rookie is quickly getting educated to the true costs of flying (fortunately I had read and knew what to expect).  Of course after the annual I upgraded to a GTN 650 and GTX 345 which made the annual look like a bargain:)

If you can get an upgraded plane to purchase you are much better off.  Financing an additional $20k of upgrades=small payment per month.  Spend $20k on upgrades=one big check.

Good luck in your search and welcome to the Mooney club!

[bradp]

On 4/29/2018 at 9:50 AM, jjmango18 said:

We don’t plan on having kids, so room for 2 adults mostly with the occasional couple in the back seat.

You will likely have some wiggling to do with fuel or people as Mooneys are not 4 full sized adult plus bags airframes.

If it's just you and your SO you could also consider a true experimental and with that be able to get experimental avionics etc.  If I had to do it all over again I probably would have bought an experimental... just something to consider.

[MIm20c]

One thing that I did not account for is the time required to be a sole owner of an aircraft.  A lot of time is spent on everything from cleaning, maintenance, training, etc. Everyone talks about the money but for me it’s the time away from family that is the biggest sacrifice. 

[jjmango18]

@bradp its funny you mentioned the experimental route. I've heard before how expensive owning a certified aircraft can be, seems like you can get more bang for your buck with an experimental. I don't know if anyone has heard of this new one - Raptor Aircraft. (just google it) Probably going to take a few years to prototype and build but seems amazing. This guy is trying to change/move forward general aviation. He posts videos twice a week on updates. I'm mechanically inclined and don't mind getting my hands in some grease, so building something seems pretty cool. As a side note, it seems like flying is SO expensive and time consuming BUT I'm trying to get back to a time when taking off and being able to point the plane in any direction I wanted was... pure joy... I feel like others my age might look at a vacation house but to me that just seems to anchor you to one place. Having an aircraft gives you freedom and places to see ... that seems priceless.  

[ShuRugal]

On 4/29/2018 at 9:50 AM, jjmango18 said:

I got my pilots license back when I was 18 y/o in 1999. I learned on a piper warrior. I really haven’t flown in the past 15 years. My log book has something like 100 hrs on it. 

 

On 4/29/2018 at 9:50 AM, jjmango18 said:

BUT, if I was pretty sure I was going to buy a mooney … why not buy your second airplane first? What keeps jamming up my cogs is I recently got into simulator flying with x-plane and VR headsets with real rudder pedals. WOW. I know its not exactly like flying but because I already have my pilots license, I’m not “learning” any bad habits like other simmers who aren’t pilots and just fly. 

I can tell you, from my own personal experience, that a PC simulator can be an *excellent* flight training tool, depending on how you approach it.  A bit of (anecdotal) evidence in support of this:  I started work on my PPL in Feb of last year.  Prior to that, I had sunk massive amounts of time into This amazingly high-fidelity PC Sim over the previous ten years.  During that time, I also got out and flew one of these as often as I could afford fuel for it, and then later on one of these.

The first time I met my CFI, I let him know that I had considerable PC sim time, and some RC time as well.  We went over an abbreviated run through the basic flight controls and instruments (he drew a basic six pack, and i identified them all, their functions, then asked him why he didn't also draw an HSI and a GS indicator).  He had already done a pre-flight (his personal practice on fam-flights) so we hopped in, went got adjusted, and went over basic intra-cockpit communication, who would be responsible for what task, control hand-off procedures, and the intended lesson.

Fired up, and he told me to go ahead and taxi to runway 34.  We got halfway down the runway before he looked at me and said

"are you screwing with me right now?"

"No, what do you mean?"

"I mean you're a pilot.  You've clearly done this before."

"nope. not once"

He gave me a kind of funny sideways glance and dropped it with a bit of a chuckle.  He had me take off, then went through the lesson (climbs, descents, turns, stalls).  He had me bring us back into the pattern and land.  The only time during the flight he touched the stick was to demonstrate each maneuver he wanted me to perform.  Taxii'd back, shut down, went through post flight, and headed inside to debrief.

 

"Come on man, I know you're messing with me.  You have to be a pilot."

"no, but I've put several thousand hours into a PC desktop simulator over the last ten years, as well as flying aerobatic RC helicopters"

 

He quickly realized I was not pulling his chain, and could not stop laughing about it.  20 hours later, I had my LS certificate (because why not?).  Twenty hours after that, I stumbled across a hell of a deal on my M20C, got a fam flight in it, and had to have it.  Found a rockin' good Mooney CFI to do my transition training and insurance purgatory with, and I had my solo sign off for the Mooney at 53 hours total time, 12.2 hours in the Mooney.  Six hours after that, I took my private pilot practical and aced it, in the Mooney.  For bonus points, the DPE brought along a black-hat from the FSDO to renew his DPE ticket.  The FAA rep asked me to try and see if I could get my Commercial ticket around the same time next year, so they could use me for another DPE sign off.

 

So, yes, PC flight simulation is an absolutely invaluable training aide.  I went from 0 logged hours to PP, in a Mooney, in 72 logged hours.  I'm aware that it is no record, but I also am fully aware that it is not the norm.  I credit my time in DCS with teaching me the basic pilotage skills required to achieve this, and my time with the RC toys (and a very tight budget) to teach me the value of taking my "play flying" seriously.

 

Rough breakdown of my DCS hours:

~2000 in the KA-50.  I love this bird, I wish I could have one for real.

~100 hours in other helicopters (Mostly MI-8, a few UH-1 and SA-342)

~1000 hours in SU-27 (more recent version with the updated flight model, couldn't stand the old one, was like flying a railway)

~200 hours in an A-10C.  Fun little groundpounder, but too slow and vulnerable.

~100 hours in a P-51.  Holy shit, this bird is hard to fly.  Made good practice for the Mooney though: fast, likes to climb, hates to slow down, floats for days on landing, and that laminar wing stalls pretty much exactly the same way on the simulated Mustang as on my C model.  After I got the Mooney, I spent two hours one evening doing pattern work with the Mustang.  Next day with my instructor, I thought I was gonna have to lift his jaw up before I could operate the flaps.

 

On 4/29/2018 at 7:03 PM, jaylw314 said:

PC flight sims are great assists for IFR training, but for basic VFR stuff, they're just not quite good enough.  I've flown with Prepar3d, and the views are great but there's a ton of information in real life that you're not getting in the sims:

• Peripheral vision
• Motion sensation
• Radio distractions
• Instrument distractions
• Passenger distractions
• Weather/icing
• Systems integration
• and so on...

• Peripheral vision - This and this solve that problem very nicely.  Before those came along, I used this, and it worked decently enough.  Lacking these, however, makes the sim harder, not easier, than real life.
• Motion sensation - I again find that this makes the Sim harder than real life, rather than the other way around.
• Radio distractions - Hop on TeamSpeak and fly with with a squad that practices realistic commo procedures.  I loved it, and it helped my radio voice a lot.
• Instrument distractions - Flying a Sim, even with a good VR headset, it basically flying instruments.  Not having the tactile feel, having shit resolution with Screen-Door effect in front of your eyes, you get used to relying on those gauges.  If you're not flying VR, all you can see is the gauges.
• Passenger distractions - I'll one up that: Missile distractions.  Nothing gets your blood pumping and hands shaking faster than exchanging R-27s for AMRAAMS.
• Weather/icing - I beg to differ.  DCS features both of those effects.
• Systems integration -  haha, hooh boy, I could spend hours telling you about the fidelity of systems in DCS, but I think it'll be more entertaining to show you, this guy is absolutely hilarious, trying to start and fly an A-10.

[SantosDumont]

I’ve spent $10k in maintenance each year for the past two years that I’ve had my F.  Replaced the alternator, vacuum pump, voltage regulator. Upgraded all the lights to LEDs. Replaced all the tires, landing gear donuts (that were original!).  Got a flat, $300.  

I thought I might catch a break this year.  Nope! Left speed brake went out, $1000.  Autopilot servo burned out, which burned out the roll computer. $4k. Looks like it’s gonna be another $10k year. Maybe next year I’ll get lucky and I’ll get away with only a couple grand in maintenance... except ADS-B is due next year and I don’t have a WAAS source... guess I’d better start planning for $20k next year.

Also when I get a spare $20k to burn I’d like to update the paint and interior.

Then there’s the cost to hangar the plane which is the only way to keep a plane from rotting in the elements.  In my town it’s $500/mo, so an extra $6k per year.

If these numbers are alarming then sole ownership might not be the right path for you. A partnership or a club might be the way to do it. 

[Hank]

Santos, you're in an expensive area! When I moved from WV to AL, my hangar cost doubled to a little over $200/month. Now it's right on $200. And ADSB units can be had for <5AMU including a self-contained GPS, just not one on the panel you can navigate with. A lot of the cost is up to what the owner wants . . . .

[1964-M20E]

I'm probably not saying anything new behind all the advice above.

However consider the following things.  Keep in mind no one here is trying to discourage you from buying a plane we just want to make sure you go in with both eyes open and fully awake.  We have all sen too many planes sitting on the ramp for one reason or another (lack of funds, lack of interest, medical etc.) being neglected and we would not want to send another one to the grim reaper:

1. If you have children the acquisition is the fun part.  Raising and maintaining them gets expensive.
2. What is the potential for your income to increase faster than the rate of inflation?
3. Besides the calculated fixed cost, base annual inspection, insurance and hangar do you have at a minimum an additional $5k per year of discretionary funds above and beyond operational cost fuel tie down at other airports, normal living expenses and normal savings etc.
4. Are you mechanically inclined and willing to do all the owner allowed maintenance operations as well as more under the supervision of a A&P?
5. Hang out a the airport some get to know other pilots and most importantly get to know one or more of the local mechanics.  Talk to the customers and find out how good he is.  I bought my first plane and when annual was coming up just 6 months later I was in a bind to find someone.
6. You can create spreadsheets to calculate cost I can share some of mine with you if you want but at the end of the day once you have a plane fly it, close your eyes and it only cost you the fuel to get from point a to b.

[bradp]

Re the sim stuff - I had an old laptop during grad school that barely ran x-plane.  In fact the behavior in low memory / cpu situations is to reduce the visibility of the sim. So that forced me to learn instrument flying / scan as primacy such that when I started actually flying I had to be reminded to keep my head up and out.  Anyway finished the PPL in as short as you could - only because I knew how to use the simulator properly / knew its limitations and where it would complement my real life learning. 

[SantosDumont]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Santos, you're in an expensive area! When I moved from WV to AL, my hangar cost doubled to a little over $200/month. Now it's right on $200. And ADSB units can be had for <5AMU including a self-contained GPS, just not one on the panel you can navigate with. A lot of the cost is up to what the owner wants . . . .

I moved and had to sit on the ramp for a few months so I’m happy to be inside. But you’re right, I should start looking around for a better deal. 

My ADS-B problem is that I’d rather buy what I want and be happy, then buy a solution that meets the requirement but still want something else.  I really want to end up with Garmin 345, 650 and dual G5’s so I might as well spend in that direction rather than spend now and respend to replace later. 

[steingar]

21 hours ago, jjmango18 said:

Mind if I ask what you spent on your panel? Is it better to by a good engine/airframe + crap avionics and then build what you want in a panel? Think I could find something in the low $40,000 range with great airframe/engine and spend $15,000/$20,000 on good avianics (WAAS GPS and autopilot). 

My aircraft came equipped with a fairly capable roll control autopilot and a transceiver with VOR, glideslope, and DME. It also had  VFR GPS comm.  The ADF was non functional.  I could have replaced it with a working one for peanuts, but after reading what one had to do in ADF approaches (which have largely vanished from the US) I deep sixed it without regrets.

To install a KLN94 I already had, a new radio and an ADSB transponder has totaled nearly 15 AMUs.  Mind you, that's an old GPS most folks are throwing out.  If you can get the aircraft with all the stuff go for it, pay a premium price if you have to, it'll still be cheaper.  Installing avionics is breathtakingly expensive.  I hope to never do it again on this aircraft.

Oh, and good luck finding a shop with time to install anything before 2020.  A majority of the fleet still hasn't been outfitted with this technology, and the deadline is two years distant.  Lots of folks though the FAA would relent, or cheaper boxes would become available.  Neither as happened.