Pireps on firewall forward HP + STC

[AaronDC8402]

2 hours ago, Sandman993 said:

Think I’ve read something from you before or someone’s similar experience.

 

I've posted something similar a time or two in the last year. I also meant to comment on operating temps. With the FWF engine, temps were always really good. You couldn't work the cylinders past about 365 deg F. I never had a second thought about it. With the recently overhauled engine, the cylinder temps would run a bit warmer. Running full throttle, 24" and 2500 rpm ROP would get the cylinders up to about 390 deg F. Now that the engine seems to be fully broken in, the temps are now running more similar to the FWF engine. It seemed to take about 120 hours to get to that point though.

Based on our experience, I wouldn't steer anyone away from FWF. But I also wouldn't push anyone that direction either. If I were shopping for another plane, I wouldn't put any additional or less value on a plane based on it having a FWF engine.

[AaronDC8402]

I don't know anything about pre oilers. Is that an electric oil pump that can be run before engine start? That sounds like a good idea for any airplane engine. That combined with pulling the blade through a few times would probably help a lot. I guess it would need to also be done regularly during periods of the plane sitting without starting.

 

 

[steingar]

Preoilers do indeed pump oil into the cylinders prior to start.  They were common on radials to get oil into the upper galleries. I actually had one on my Cherokee.  The engine was running strong on it when I sold it 800 hours later.

[320KPH]

On 3/21/2018 at 8:06 AM, carusoam said:

@Sandman993

I saw this as it bubbled up today...

Somebody has the pistons and the STC not installed in an 201...

Are you still heading this direction?

320KPH,

Do you know if the owner would sell the firewall forward parts/STC separately?

Sandman above was interested in the possibilities...

Just a PP, trying to connect Mooney people across the globe, not a mechanic or a sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

he will sell the STC and Piston set for $10K AUD email sent.

[McMooney]

I remember reading something on how auto engines are tested, essentially anything you could possibly do to them has been done.

run @100% till they explode, tested.

shock heating and cooling, tested

no oil, to much oil, bad oil, bad air, good gas, bad gas, etc..  

and that is your standard run of the mill grocery getter engine.  

if i remember correctly, gm's in house testing is far greater than anything required by the faa.

[aaronk25]

The centrilube cam and ney nozzles for that matter is smoke and mirrors, even with a pre-oiler.

With thick aviation oil, when cold oil isn’t gonna spray out of the holes and it’s gonna take 250-1000rpms according to Ed Collins, to get a significant amount of oil pumping out of the can shaft.

Sure a pre-oiler will pump some oil up to the valve train but that’s not where the critical corrosion induced wear and tear takes place. It’s on the cam lobes as well as the cylinder barrels. The pre-Oiler combined with the cebtrilube still won’t coat the whole cam with oil, only the fog of oil mist from the engine running and splashing oil will. If one side of the lifter or cam lobe stays unlubed and is dry and has corrosion taking place, its almost as bad as have the whole cam dry as any small failure of the cam/lifters will be grounds for a tear down.

The only way to adequately oil and protect the engine with a renewed oil film is to run the engine up to speed for a period of time.

The only good way to protect a engine is to keep clean, oil on all the parts by running often and changing oil frequently.



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[Sandman993]

Progress report... engine removed and disassembled... was told the internal view revealed, everything looks normal for an engine of these times (1700hrs) except  the cam. They said, two intake lobes showing significant wear and I was probably not producing full power. Would like to mention the engine was still making its numbers (rpms &mp) and last compression was 3) 78/80’s and one 79/80. Also, and more important, the engine received NEY nozzles at last overhaul in late 2001. I’ll post pictures of the cam when I see it. Cylinder condition, I attribute to temp control... as I mentioned earlier, I don’t allow them to hang out above 350 + or - much, if ever. 

Anyone can buy the stc’s and have them done at their fav shop...I chose to go up there (at great inconvenience) for the extra attention to detail. Hence the term, fwf. Plus the pistons and cylinders will be balanced. 

So if you see me standing at the intersection with a cardboard sign, toss $ in the can! This is painful! 

[RLCarter]

7 minutes ago, Sandman993 said:

 They said, two intake lobes showing significant wear and I was probably not producing full power.

2 lobes have double duty, not sure which 2 but will interesting to see

[aaronk25]

Ya it was probably the cam lobe with 2 lobes.....I think that is what everyone means. Yep there the ones that fail it seams.


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[jetdriven]

The intake has two lifters per lobe

[Sandman993]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

The intake has two lifters per lobe

Correctomundo 

[ArtVandelay]

Correctomundo 

If engine was running well, compressions excellent, what made you do the overhaul?

[chrisk]

On 3/13/2018 at 10:17 AM, aaronk25 said:

So back on the auto engine debate. Given these aircraft engines are old designs it’s still impressive that the hp is as close as I can tell exactly the same at 2700rpm as the direct injection 5.3 truck motor sitting in front of me. 200hp at 2700 rpms.


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I  though I would jump in here.  Why not take a modern aircraft engine example.    My other aircraft has a Rotax 914.  It has 115 HP, 74 inches of displacement, a TBO of 2000 hours, weighs 160 lbs, and runs on unleaded auto gas.   Just put one on each wing and make a twin mooney. 

 

[jetdriven]

I bet Rotax has tried but I don’t think you can scale it to 200hp. They make a turbo injected 915is  that’s like 130hp but it’s a blown and squeezed version of what they have.  And it’s 35k

Piston engines don’t scale up very well and turbine engines don’t scale down very well. It seems to be quite a gap in the 150 to  300hp range

Edited April 5, 2018 by jetdriven

[chrisk]

Just don't look at the cost of a TIO-540-A1FB  in a "Bravo".  The list price is in the $122K neighborhood.

Sorry for going way off topic

[Sandman993]

On 4/5/2018 at 10:21 AM, teejayevans said:

If engine was running well, compressions excellent, what made you do the overhaul?

Idk, seems there are delusions in my head about visiting places like New Mexico, Yellowstone etc and flying to other parts of the country towards the east. I’m from a small town in Texas, south between Houston and Corpus ...so to me, everything cool around here, I’ve already seen...whenever I get an opportunity to go, I didn’t want to be hamstrung by the worry of a higher time engine. That’s how I explain it to my hanger mates who think I should wait a couple more Years.

Been saving for this for a while...the mooney has spoiled me, it’s an incredible, economical distance machine. Hopefully this will wake it up and make it even better.

 

[aviatoreb]

On 4/5/2018 at 12:10 PM, jetdriven said:

I bet Rotax has tried but I don’t think you can scale it to 200hp. They make a turbo injected 915is  that’s like 130hp but it’s a blown and squeezed version of what they have.  And it’s 35k

Piston engines don’t scale up very well and turbine engines don’t scale down very well. It seems to be quite a gap in the 150 to  300hp range

I don't know anything about what mechanically makes that turbo rotax so special, but it is quite special.  Arm chair quarterback as I am on this, I would think they could simply make a 6 cylinder variant and voila have a fantastic ~200hp variant of their highly modern and fuel efficient aircraft engine.  What am I missing?

Separate - I bet it would be a great engine on certain twins.  Like on a Twinkie.  Or on the DA42 both of which have proven to be quite capable with 135 hp engines on both sides, the later having been their original theilert diesel.  A rotax on each wing would have been a more bullet proof, MUCH cheaper and still highly fuel efficient choice.

Those rotax engines are so small and cute... I would wish for an inline twin concept where two engines drive one prop and one shaft.  I don't know much about how the inline shafts work but it is known technology isn't it. since eons back.  So then somehow I bet you could stuff two rotax engines inside your cowl to drive a single prop by a single shaft.  Just brain storming thinking outside the box.

[carusoam]

Use caution when modifying expensive things...

1) They are expensive because they require saving for quite a while...

2) Consider What it takes to undo the modification...

3) what is it going to be like when you are the only one amongst your hangar mates that has spent a wad of dough not getting what you expected?

4) research the costs of the modification, know how it is going to apply to your situation, expect to take the good with the bad...

5) the cost of cylinders that run at high temperatures is early replacement.  This is normal procedure for turbo’d Aircraft engines that are run at high power output...continuously.

6) what is the worst that can happen?  Swapping out the modification? Or a total engine OH?

7) Is there room in your aviation budget to handle the what ifs?

8) will you be dissapointed the first time your compressions come back too low and cylinders wear requires cylinder OH?

9) these questions are circling about is it worth it, to you?

 

On engine scalability...

1) IO360... four cylinders, 200 hp...

2) IO540... six cylinders, 300 hp...

3) IO720... eight cylinders, 400 hp... Two IO360 engines driving one prop...

 

who said airplane engines don’t scale very well...

Airplane budgets don’t scale very well...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

Sticking two more cylinders on the 915is likely would make 200HP but the engine has a very high specific output, but you will have to completely redesign the turbo and exhaust system and the regarding the crank, I don’t think you can simply add another 1/3rd to the stock piece. It’s not a IO360 crank size, they’re largely overbuilt. And if you did, you’re looking at a 50k engine. Which is fuel injected, computer controlled, turbocharged, gear driven, etc. not sure it’s a better way than a dumb Lycoming IO360. I suppose I’f they made a 300hp version it wouldn’t be any cheaper or more reliable than a Continental engine.  Who knows. 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Sticking two more cylinders on the 915is likely would make 200HP but the engine has a very high specific output, but you will have to completely redesign the turbo and exhaust system and the regarding the crank, I don’t think you can simply add another 1/3rd to the stock piece. It’s not a IO360 crank size, they’re largely overbuilt. And if you did, you’re looking at a 50k engine. Which is fuel injected, computer controlled, turbocharged, gear driven, etc. not sure it’s a better way than a dumb Lycoming IO360. I suppose I’f they made a 300hp version it wouldn’t be any cheaper or more reliable than a Continental engine.  Who knows. 

True true...

but maybe it would end up still more modern in many ways with better fuel specifics?

how much does the continental fadec engine cost?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Sticking two more cylinders on the 915is likely would make 200HP but the engine has a very high specific output, but you will have to completely redesign the turbo and exhaust system and the regarding the crank, I don’t think you can simply add another 1/3rd to the stock piece. It’s not a IO360 crank size, they’re largely overbuilt. And if you did, you’re looking at a 50k engine. Which is fuel injected, computer controlled, turbocharged, gear driven, etc. not sure it’s a better way than a dumb Lycoming IO360. I suppose I’f they made a 300hp version it wouldn’t be any cheaper or more reliable than a Continental engine.  Who knows. 

What about the pie in the sky idea/wish I threw out / two completely separate engines running a common shaft for twin reliability on a single prop?

Edited April 8, 2018 by aviatoreb

[mike_elliott]

On 4/5/2018 at 12:23 PM, chrisk said:

Just don't look at the cost of a TIO-540-A1FB  in a "Bravo".  The list price is in the $122K neighborhood.

Sorry for going way off topic

Ron Dubin put in a Factory Reman TIO-540A1FB he bought off Lycoming exchange for 55K at OSH 2 years ago. They are not that bad unless you want a new one without a core for your airboat. The TSIO 360 LB engine is 75K list price new and has cylinders you need to send off to get machined correctly

[PaulM]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

What about the pie in the sky idea/wish I threw out / two completely separate engines running a common shaft for twin reliability on a single prop?

Been done.. 

https://www.soloy.com/dual-pac.html
http://www.pwc.ca/en/engines/pt6t

http://www.epi-eng.com/gearbox_products/mark-14_gearbox.htm

I suspect you might see electric propulsion systems with either dual coaxial props, or dual motors, Geared motors loose power in the gear system, aviation is all about tradeoffs, nobody seems to want that one. 

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, PaulM said:

Been done.. 

https://www.soloy.com/dual-pac.html
http://www.pwc.ca/en/engines/pt6t

http://www.epi-eng.com/gearbox_products/mark-14_gearbox.htm

I suspect you might see electric propulsion systems with either dual coaxial props, or dual motors, Geared motors loose power in the gear system, aviation is all about tradeoffs, nobody seems to want that one. 

Right - I know the technology exists / for a long time.

that beautiful Italian airplane from pre wwii used such a concept.

so why not twin rotax?  It would be fantastic.

yeah in hybrid electric you can get twin as well - if either motor cuts out / electric or gas then you can keep power for a little while.

[aviatoreb]

14 minutes ago, PaulM said:

Been done.. 

https://www.soloy.com/dual-pac.html
http://www.pwc.ca/en/engines/pt6t

http://www.epi-eng.com/gearbox_products/mark-14_gearbox.htm

I suspect you might see electric propulsion systems with either dual coaxial props, or dual motors, Geared motors loose power in the gear system, aviation is all about tradeoffs, nobody seems to want that one. 

Many helicopters do it too.