Between two Fs

[Yooper Rocketman]

52 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

 

I'm not sure exactly when but it wasn't long after I started flying mine that I quit looking to see if it was up and locked. I probably looked down the first couple of times and that was all. As Paul said, when the bar is on the floor and locked you know it, it either is or it isn't, and there isn't any place for it to go except in the hole so you aren't exactly fishing around for the right place.

I do still look at it when I drop the gear as I like to see the thumb button pop out when it locks in place, then I give it one more good tug to be sure it is locked in place.

My Hangar partner with the E model (has owned it a REALLY long time) taught me on my "F' to thumb nail check the top of the handle in the bracket.  If you can get your nail between the top of the handle and the bracket it's not locked all the way up.  Or......maybe it was MORE than your thumb nail?  Dang it's been 17 years since I bought my Rocket but when I flew his E a year and a half ago, I still did it by memory; didn't think about it at all.

Tom

[Rumblestrip]

On 1/17/2018 at 6:23 PM, 1964-M20E said:

I don't know but you could ask the owl from the tootsie pop commercials.

 

I prefer The Shell Answer Man

On 1/17/2018 at 6:23 PM, 1964-M20E said:

 

 

[mike_elliott]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:00 PM, gsxrpilot said:

You might be the only one. What happened?

I have heard of one of them actually breaking, it was corroded so bad. 

[Ron McBride]

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:19 PM, gsxrpilot said:

1

It's like pulling up the hand brake on my old MG. You don't have to look at it, it only goes where it's supposed to go. 

Same with the Johnson bar. Just push it down until it clicks into place. There isn't any other option. 

The things I liked about the Mooney manual gear... 

• When it's down and locked, you know it's down and locked. There are no light bulbs to be burnt out, no relying on a gear horn that has come disconnected. No checking a mirror to verify that at least one of the three are down.
• No motor to burn out, no gear ratios to change.
• No emergency gear extension mechanism or process to check, use, know, practice.
• The "cool" factor. Kinda like being the only guy at the club who can drive a stick shift.

I was in one for a sales demonstration flight, the Owner in the right seat put the gear down, I ran a gumps check on short final, the gear was down and not locked, I hit the lever hard and heard it click in, and verified with the lights.  Yes you can gear one in with the lever down.  Also ask Jolie about hers, popped out of the lock on the taxi way, She was lucky and caught it.

[Glenn]

6 minutes ago, N803RM said:

I was in one for a sales demonstration flight, the Owner in the right seat put the gear down, I ran a gumps check on short final, the gear was down and not locked, I hit the lever hard and heard it click in, and verified with the lights.  Yes you can gear one in with the lever down.  Also ask Jolie about hers, popped out of the lock on the taxi way, She was lucky and caught it.

The block that the J bar locks into for gear-down (under the throttle) should be replaced every 20 years or so.

[gsxrpilot]

35 minutes ago, N803RM said:

I was in one for a sales demonstration flight, the Owner in the right seat put the gear down, I ran a gumps check on short final, the gear was down and not locked, I hit the lever hard and heard it click in, and verified with the lights.  Yes you can gear one in with the lever down.  Also ask Jolie about hers, popped out of the lock on the taxi way, She was lucky and caught it.

All of these are pilot error. Those of us who know how to use the johnson bar in the manual gear Mooney's, know they are bullet proof. Sure there are ways for an inexperienced pilot to screw it up. But 10 minutes in a manual gear Mooney with a proper Mooney instructor... or just someone like me or any number of others on this board who have owned the manual gear Mooney's and anyone can be an expert and know positively every time the gear is down. 

Nothing is a 100% guarantee but notice that the Johnson bar Mooney's are the only retracts where the FAA didn't require any redundant or emergency gear extension mechanism. There's a reason for that.

[mike_elliott]

So the best Mooney would be one with an Electric gear and a J bar emergency system! You pick what you want to use, tell all the trolls to twirl...

[Hank]

7 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

So the best Mooney would be one with an Electric gear and a J bar emergency system! You pick what you want to use, tell all the trolls to twirl...

Just be careful flipping the switch and having that big bar swing through the cabin by itself . . . I've heard that when the electric motor was added, the J-bar was just cut off and all linkages left as they were.

[MIm20c]

@chrixxer getting any closer to a new Mooney?  I’m relieved you are looking at well maintained and upgraded F’s now for the number of hours you fly a year. 

[chrixxer]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:30 AM, Shadrach said:

I’m betting there’s more to the $400 O-ring story. The only O-rings that would cause the flaps to retract (as in not stay down) are located on the actuator piston Which has two rubber O-rings and one leather O-ring in the center. O-ring failure typically causes minor seepage but has little effect on operation. What’s more likely is the cable to the release came loose and ceased to actuate the cam that unseats the check valve. If this happened with the cam in a certain position it would cause the flaps to bleed down slowly.

Perhaps it’s subjective, but after getting to know the hydraulic flap system both operationally and mechanically (I’ve completely overhauled mine and helped several others troubleshoot their systems), I think it’s one of the most reliable systems ever installed in an aircraft. Most functioned flawlessly for decades with no maintenance.  Most of the systems that have problems (overly fast retraction, spongy handles) have been “worked on” by people unfamiliar with the system. 

My retracable step turned 50 this past year. No mx other than lube and still performing perfectly. 

Do you have empty weight numbers for each machine? It’s be interesting to see the difference between an all manual and all electric F model. 

I would vote for 67. It was one of Mooney’s most successful years in terms of production. The twist wing has no perceptible benefits that I have seen.  But the manual flap and gear systems are about the most reliable you will find on an aircraft.  The 67s also have flush rivets and panel panel fitment. Cost-cutting in 69 meant less expensive hardware and less detailed sheet metal fitment.

Bet all you like. I was the one assisting the A&P (Dennis at Inland Valley Aviation) with the repair. I literally watched him repair it. One o-ring was deteriorated to the point of worthlessness. We replaced all of them (IIRC). Everything else was nominal, including the cable. Even then it was never quite right (one pump to get going, then 2 for take- off setting, then 2.5 more for full deployment, IIRC). And the retractable step was wonky. Sometimes it went all the way up, sometimes halfway, sometimes it stayed down the whole trip. I checked into it and parts weren't then available to refurbish, though I understand they are now. The other '67 I was looking at, the owner removed it rather than deal with it.

I don't have numbers for the '67 (which is off the table now anyway), but the '69 is 1696.78 empty, 1043.22 usable - more than enough for my missions. I'll miss the manual landing gear, but I think I'll be mort comfortable with the electric flaps...

[chrixxer]

On 1/17/2018 at 1:02 PM, Shadrach said:

 

I would recommend that anyone flying a manual gear bird incorporate “clearing the J-bar” as part of the pre-takeoff check list. 

 

Heh. Funny you should say that...

[chrixxer]

11 hours ago, MIm20c said:

@chrixxer getting any closer to a new Mooney?  I’m relieved you are looking at well maintained and upgraded F’s now for the number of hours you fly a year. 

Indeed. Barring calamity, a certain gorgeous well provided for '69 M20F will be relocating south soon. And, yeah, lessons learned (and situations changed); buying the plane I want this time, rather than a project with "potential"! I'm hangar-hunting now, may have to give up SMO and end up at Zamperini.

[chrixxer]

Indeed. Barring calamity, a certain gorgeous well provided for '69 M20F will be relocating south soon. And, yeah, lessons learned (and situations changed); buying the plane I want this time, rather than a project with "potential"! I'm hangar-hunting now, may have to give up SMO and end up at Zamperini.

... I just realized Ron already identified the plane. N803RM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shadrach]

On 1/20/2018 at 8:48 PM, chrixxer said:

Even then it was never quite right (one pump to get going, then 2 for take- off setting, then 2.5 more for full deployment, IIRC). And the retractable step was wonky. Sometimes it went all the way up, sometimes halfway, sometimes it stayed down the whole trip. I checked into it and parts weren't then available to refurbish, though I understand they are now.

The above statement points to poor "maintenance", not poor design.  The step is vacuum operated; if it's sealed and free of obstruction it works, if it leaks or is obstructed, it doesn't.  The manual flaps are a hydraulic system, the system is either fluid tight, free of air and properly set or it's not.  The systems are just that simple so it's easy to deduce that neither of the systems you were using where in proper working order.  Maintaining a different type of system to the same "standard" is not likely to yield better results. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Shadrach

[MooneyF]

Hello,

I would like to go back a few posts on this thread (the two Fs comparison...) and ask you guys if the fuel tank leaks are a concern? How often do you re-seal them in average? Trying to understand the impact on cost of ownership...

Thanks!

 

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, MooneyF said:

Hello,

I would like to go back a few posts on this thread (the two Fs comparison...) and ask you guys if the fuel tank leaks are a concern? How often do you re-seal them in average? Trying to understand the impact on cost of ownership...

Thanks!

 

Strip and seal or patched depending on condition.  Either way they must be opened. There is an age at which there isn't much utility in patching, but it depends on climate and storage. I'd say after 25yrs you start to throw good money after bad.

[Browncbr1]

3 hours ago, MooneyF said:

Hello,

I would like to go back a few posts on this thread (the two Fs comparison...) and ask you guys if the fuel tank leaks are a concern? How often do you re-seal them in average? Trying to understand the impact on cost of ownership...

Thanks!

 

Depends on how the plane isn’t kept.   If it is on tiedowns in Arizona sun with no fuel in the tanks, the sealant won’t last long.  If kept in a hangar with full fuel, then much longer.  Hard landings can spring a leak in sealant’s old age.   I would have to go back and look, but I’m pretty sure my right tank was sealed in the mid 90s and right tank in the late 90s.   The right tank was patched at the root and leading edge, and inspection plates resealed last year. ($200).   This summer, I’m going to have the upper skin lap seam resealed on the left tank.    It leaks a little bit when filled to the fuel cap rim.  

Edited January 22, 2018 by Browncbr1

[Shadrach]

Just now, Browncbr1 said:

Depends on how the plane isn’t kept.   If it is on tiedowns in Arizona sun with no fuel in the tanks, the sealant won’t last long.  If kept in a hangar with full fuel, then much longer.  Hard landings can spring a leak in sealant’s old age.   I would have to go back and look, but my right tank was sealed in the mid 90s and right tank in the late 90s.   The right tank was patched at the root and leading edge, and inspection plates resealed last year. ($200).   This summer, I’m going to have the upper skin lap seam resealed on the left tank.    It leaks a little bit when filled to the fuel cap rim.  

Original tank sealant?

[MooneyF]

Ok, that's encouraging. It doesn't sound like a major issue but rather part of the maintenance. I was talking with a friend on mine that told me to beware of major problems with fuel tank leaks, that's why I asked!

Same question about the MAGS, do you overhaul at 500hrs and is it an expensive thing to do?

[Browncbr1]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

Original tank sealant?

I’d have to go back and review the logs.  I think the right tank was hand stripped by the previous owner while it was down for a major overhaul. 

I supplied the gel stripper to the A&p for the last patch and he said the gel worked great and cut time in half.  

[Browncbr1]

2 minutes ago, MooneyF said:

Ok, that's encouraging. It doesn't sound like a major issue but rather part of the maintenance. I was talking with a friend on mine that told me to beware of major problems with fuel tank leaks, that's why I asked!

Same question about the MAGS, do you overhaul at 500hrs and is it an expensive thing to do?

If slick mags, you should research thoroughly.    The vendors selling “overhauled” slick mags are no good.  

[MooneyF]

Any recommendations/experience with Slick mags?

[jetdriven]

They frequently require a new mag at the 500-hr. Often before that. 

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, MooneyF said:

Any recommendations/experience with Slick mags?

No direct experience in maintaining Slicks, but that is impart due to the fact that the 50 year old Bendix mags in my bird are infinitely rebuildable and  have been very reliable. I have a local guy that's happy to IRAN them.   I try to stagger  IRANs so that one mag always has ~500hrs or less.  I do this based on my previous experience.  From what I've read, Slicks have some replaceable parts, but it's often more economical to replace them at inspection time.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, MooneyF said:

Ok, that's encouraging. It doesn't sound like a major issue but rather part of the maintenance. I was talking with a friend on mine that told me to beware of major problems with fuel tank leaks, that's why I asked!

Same question about the MAGS, do you overhaul at 500hrs and is it an expensive thing to do?

It can be a terminal issue if the spars are found to be corroded once the old sealant is removed.  More than a few incessants of spar corrosion can be found around here.

Clarence