Get the rating.

[gsxrpilot]

VIDP (Delhi India) this morning. 50m (150 ft) ceiling, RVR 125m (375 ft) fog. My flight is definitely delayed.

 

[flight2000]

9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

*the reports I've seen say the Cirrus was at 15,000 ft, not 20,000, still high enough to put one to sleep, but very unlikely that an experienced pilot wouldn't notice the effects of hypoxia and do something about it. Useful consciousness at 15K is much different than 20K. If they ever find the guy, we might learn that he died of a heart attack or something else and not hypoxia.

For those that may have missed it, an SR22T flew out into the Gulf of Mexico with an unresponsive pilot (verified by the USAF chase planes).  Flightaware had him at FL190 for most of the trip.  I think FlightRadar had the plane down to 15,000 before losing it.  He was an anesthesiologist, so I'm going out on a limb and saying he was fully aware of the risk of Hypoxia.  His previous flights a couple days earlier were also high altitude, so a theory is maybe he ran out of O2 and didn't realize it.  Lot's of discussion on BeechTalk about the 2016 SR22's having an auto decent feature built into the autopilot, but seems to have failed for some reason.  I do agree with Paul (GSXRPILOT) that this was probably a medical condition that incapacitated the pilot.

Flightaware track: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N325JK/history/20180103/1940Z/KPWA/KGTU

http://kfor.com/2018/01/04/search-continues-for-oklahoma-pilot-after-plane-disappears-over-gulf-of-mexico/

Sad situation.

Brian

Edited January 6, 2018 by flight2000

[gsxrpilot]

I must say I thoroughly enjoy cruising across the country in my Mooney up in the flight levels. But it's not something to take lightly. As I've mentioned in other threads, I done everything I can possibly do with my unpressurized Mooney to stack the deck in my favor and take very specific steps to mitigate the risk. 

One thing I've done, but didn't think about at the time, was to take a friend along, JD Casteel -SWTA, for a high altitude run with me. On our way home from the Mooney Summit we were at FL200. It was interesting to take off the O2 one at a time and see the effects. They were very different between us. But it was very educational. I don't know how practical it is, but I'd like to do this periodically just to verify my safety procedures with a second pilot along for observation.

So if anyone would like to see what it's like at FL250 or so, but don't want to do it alone, let me know and we'll work out a time to go together, my plane or yours.

[Yetti]

I just did the FAA Altitude chamber.  It was interesting.   The younger guys were going out faster than the older guys.   He kept my group for an extra minute to see how we would do.   

I did not ask about the risks of flying.   I have that pegged around the same as riding a motorcycle.  

Flying higher.    The chance of engine out/additional fuel stop vs. the chance of flying out to the gulf.   Might be a better way to put the question.

I found that after 2 hours, I am pretty much ready for a fuel stop.  Allows time to refresh and stretch.

 

[gsxrpilot]

The comparison I was trying to make is that about the only justification for the increased risk we all take by flying small airplanes, is that we want to. And like that, my main justification for flying high is that I want to. And I accept the increased risk that goes along with it. While the added safety if I have an engine out counts for something, it's not enough to fully justify the additional risk of flying high. But I like flying high and that's enough justification for me.

And like risk mitigation in other activities, I build in as much redundancy, options, and safety factors, as I can. But there are no guarantees in this life, except that I WILL die at some point. 

You should come with me sometime. I'll swing by Brenham in the 252 and we can go up for some fun in the flight levels. Without the risk of explosive decompression, two pilots are definitely safer than one at altitude.  I'd appreciate an honest critique of my hight altitude risk mitigation regimen. 

[mike_elliott]

Paul, 2 years ago Major Mari Metzler (flight surgeon for Tyndall and in charge of the hypobaric chamber) gave a real eye opening presentation on hypoxia and flight above 18K. Just as Dan did about CO poisoning this Summit. Sadly, she was called out to investigate an accident so she had to scrub her presentation at the Mooney Summit V October. The jist was not only the dangers of it, but the effects on the body of non pressurized flight in the FL's that occur every flight. Its a harsh environment up there. While it has a lot of bennies that you enjoy, the risks and downsides are keeping me below FL18 now days. Getting the CAMI Prote unit has been very high on my priority list for the Mooney Summit for a number of years. I thought we had it done for 2018, but we were cut out of the "budget" against my and others screams of protest. Seth is working the hill to get us back in the budget.

[gsxrpilot]

15 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Paul, 2 years ago Major Mari Metzler (flight surgeon for Tyndall and in charge of the hypobaric chamber) gave a real eye opening presentation on hypoxia and flight above 18K. Just as Dan did about CO poisoning this Summit. Sadly, she was called out to investigate an accident so she had to scrub her presentation at the Mooney Summit V October. The jist was not only the dangers of it, but the effects on the body of non pressurized flight in the FL's that occur every flight. Its a harsh environment up there. While it has a lot of bennies that you enjoy, the risks and downsides are keeping me below FL18 now days. Getting the CAMI Prote unit has been very high on my priority list for the Mooney Summit for a number of years. I thought we had it done for 2018, but we were cut out of the "budget" against my and others screams of protest. Seth is working the hill to get us back in the budget.

I'm looking forward to it next year.

[Yetti]

49 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You should come with me sometime. I'll swing by Brenham in the 252 and we can go up for some fun in the flight levels. Without the risk of explosive decompression, two pilots are definitely safer than one at altitude.  I'd appreciate an honest critique of my hight altitude risk mitigation regimen. 

We need to do that.   A good thing to do probably where people are allowed to be honest and help each other fly better.    I only grade on how well you land on the centerline :-)      I have read your process for flying high and it seems pretty thorough and has lots of risk mitigation.   My only experience is IT disaster recovery and business continuance plans.   Which I like to do around scenario based.   Fire in the building.  After it is out you have 10 minutes to come back in and grab what you need.  (Two shell fire in Houston)

In minute 6 of the FAA Altitude Chamber I was able to solve problems correctly from the guide.   But did not remember I had solved them until reminded in the debrief.

 

[bradp]

I think one high altitude mitigation might be to have multiple sources of oxygen just like multiple attitude indications for IMC flight.  

I wouldn’t rely on the ship tank.  Still carry a portable with a mask.  Pulse oximetry that runs continuously and will alarm at a set value (90%) enough for you to have your attention.  Last and I’ve never seen this is for general aviation would be a gas analyzer and flow meter that can alarm if you are not getting the percent inspired oxygen and flow you thought you were.  Various alarm mechanisms and including oxygen delivery in the scan may sound like overkill but it could buy the 30 or so seconds prior to hypoxia symptoms that could start you descending or get you another oxygen source.  

[M016576]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

At what altitude does the FAA run their chamber?  I did the USAF chamber training at Tyndall AFB a few years ago and for we civilians they conducted the training at 25,000’; but they told us they used 35,000’ for military aircrew.

Just curious. 

Paul excepted, of course, I think that many if not most GA pilots don’t fully understand the risks of flying in the flight levels in unpressurized airplanes, and especially so up in the mid 20s. Even as a VFR NA pilot I made some permanent changes in my flying after receiving the chamber training, and now prefer to fly much lower than I used to. 

Jim

They do not use 35K for the military pilots- at least not for me in any of my “trips.”  Your time of useful consciousness off of supp. O2 is measured in seconds at that altitude.

@gsxrpilotI wouldn’t recommend taking off your mask at 25K as an experiment, even if you aren’t the PIC: time of useful conciousness is under 2 minutes- and that’s for a healthy 30 year old, athletic military type pilot.  Add some age and “unhealthy” lifestyle practices to the mix and your TUC degrades rapidly.

even experienced pilots sometimes don’t recognize the onset of hypoxia until it’s too late.  Especially if you’re up at 25K+.  It should be something that is continuously in your crosscheck any time you’re up in the flight levels.  The real safety issue from the negative side is the same thing that gives you “options”... you’re way up high.  And in a mooney- it takes FOREVER to descend down to the thicker air if something goes wrong.  In a fighter, we just point straight down and accept that I’m descending at 450 knots, nbd.  Not an option in our airplanes- we bump quickly up against Vne.

without a pressurized cabin- I personally recommend staying a bit closer to 18K- where you should have about 30 minutes TUC in the event of emergency- it offers a good trade off of altitude, efficiency and the ability to get down a little quicker if need be.  Weather might drive you higher, but every 1000’ above 18 really is significant when it comes to hypoxia risk- and if you’re flying above 18K, you should also probably carry a small backup O2 bottle, just in case...

Edited January 6, 2018 by M016576

[kpaul]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I did the USAF chamber training at Tyndall AFB a few years ago and for we civilians they conducted the training at 25,000’; but they told us they used 35,000’ for military aircrew.

Military chamber rides only use FL250.

 

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

So if anyone would like to see what it's like at FL250 or so, but don't want to do it alone, let me know and we'll work out a time to go together, my plane or yours.

I would not recommend this.  If you have seen someone go too far in the chamber and then do the "funky chicken" as they come back... the cockpit of the Mooney is not a good place for that.  

[Yetti]

The FAA chamber they had us at 26K.   I did not really get any physical symptoms.   Loss of time and went to deep breathing, was about all.

[kpaul]

3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Thanks for that. Perhaps they have different profiles for different types of training and aircrew. I am sure that that is what they told us.  It was about 10 years ago here at Tyndall.  

My early symptoms were a loss of color vision and, get this, a tingling in, to put it politely and in airmans' terms, the seat of my pants. 

Jim

The interesting part of the loss of color vision is that you will probably not really notice until you get back on O2 and the color comes back.

Tingling is a very common symptom, however they are now realizing that is something usually only noticed while sitting in a chamber.  If you do the same hypoxia demo while flying a simulator most people no longer notice the tingling as the first sign, because their hands and mind are busy "flying" the simulator. 

Also, people's symptoms tend to change with time, hence the recurring requirement for military pilots.

[gsxrpilot]

Let me clarify. The mask is not coming of at 25,000. But the offer still stand for a ride at 25,000 if someone would like to do see what it's like up there... with the O2 on.

Where I've had the mask off to evaluate the effect, was at 20,000. There is a significant difference in that 5000 feet.

Question for those who have done the ride in a chamber... are you able to check your pulse ox during the experience?

[kortopates]

Let me clarify. The mask is not coming of at 25,000. But the offer still stand for a ride at 25,000 if someone would like to do see what it's like up there... with the O2 on. Where I've had the mask off to evaluate the effect, was at 20,000. There is a significant difference in that 5000 feet.

Question for those who have done the ride in a chamber... are you able to check your pulse ox during the experience?

 

You can bring your own pulse oximeter with you to the chamber as I did just to make sure. But some do and some don't have one to use in the chamber.

TUC values vary so widely they are pretty useless except for giving you an expected trend. The tables give 3-6min at 25000'. I didn't see anyone not make it past 3min, most everyone made 6min. Perhaps the oldest guy went 8.5 min. The first to go back on O2 were actually the younger pilots. Only the older guys went over 6 min. Which jives with what high altitude climbing community has been documenting for years that middle aged climbers do far better at altitude than 18 year olds - although I have yet to see anyone in there teens or even young 20's in the chamber.

But the value of the chamber ride IMO is not merely to see how long you can function as your O2 is dropping but for us to see and recognize our own personal symptoms (hear rate, vision, tingles in the fingers etc) and learn about our reduced cognitive abilities as O2 saturation steadily declines.

Yeah, it'll probably kill a few brain cells but the knowledge gained is worth it. surprisingly although many people recognize these symptoms, far too many don't - and maybe someone in the later category should refrain from flying alone in the flight levels. Two people on board and another source of O2 is the strongest defense IMO.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bob_Belville]

On 1/4/2018 at 10:20 AM, gsxrpilot said:

This is very relevant in Texas. We often get weather with very powerful convective activity. Texas thunderstorms are legendary. You don't definitely don't want to be IMC, and it's often not to be on an IFR flight plan just because of all the weaving around and deviating. But at the same time the cells can usually be spotted 50+ miles away, so staying below or above the cloud deck allows you to easily see and avoid the cells. If you were IMC, you might wander into one and be in trouble.

Or get a Stormscope.

[kpaul]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Question for those who have done the ride in a chamber... are you able to check your pulse ox during the experience?

This fall when I redid my chamber card I was on a pulse oximeter, I was down to 85% and was able to fly the sim and correctly change altitudes and headings while responding to the technician acting as ATC.  In this case it was using a  Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device (ROBD) rather than in a chamber.  The only thing you don't experience is the rapid decompression.  The techs are supposed to get you on O2 if you drop to 84%.  The have the simulator indicate bird strikes to get the attention of someone not realizing how hypoxic they really were.  You can go on 100% O2 as soon as you notice symptoms, there is no right amount of time.  This year with an FL250 equilvant, I was near 10 minutes.   

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

That is really interesting about the tingling phenomenon being more pronounced or noticeable in the chamber. Thanks very much for that. 

If/When they ever offer the course up to civilians again here at Tyndall I will be the first to sign up.   No bueno though for many years now. 

Jim

And talking with Col. Byrd and the FAA, the LOA between the FAA and the USAF that allowed this wont happen again, sadly. In part because the chamber would have to be open to all civilians not just civilian pilots. CAMI has committed to having the (much safer) PROTE available at OSH and SNF this year. If you are going to either, please consider signing up if you fly above 9K (yea, the 9-17K area is also a high hypoxia risk arena for non pressurized planes, largely depending on your physiology [1] )

[1] Dr. Mari Metzler O3 USAF

[kortopates]

This fall when I redid my chamber card I was on a pulse oximeter, I was down to 85% and was able to fly the sim and correctly change altitudes and headings while responding to the technician acting as ATC.  In this case it was using a  Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device (ROBD) rather than in a chamber.  The only thing you don't experience is the rapid decompression.  The techs are supposed to get you on O2 if you drop to 84%.  The have the simulator indicate bird strikes to get the attention of someone not realizing how hypoxic they really were.  You can go on 100% O2 as soon as you notice symptoms, there is no right amount of time.  This year with an FL250 equilvant, I was near 10 minutes.   

Sounds like liability concerns are taking over if they are limiting people to 85% saturation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kpaul]

6 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Sounds like liability concerns are taking over if they are limiting people to 85% saturation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It comes from the fact that they want you to identify and learn your specific hypoxia symptoms.  If you get too far you may not remember the symptoms and therefore negate the training.  Also as a non-doctor my understanding is that below 90% is hypoxic and below 80% could cause organ issues.  Makes 85% simple Air Force math to draw the line.

[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, kortopates said:

You can bring your own pulse oximeter with you to the chamber as I did just to make sure. But some do and some don't have one to use in the chamber.

TUC values vary so widely they are pretty useless except for giving you an expected trend. The tables give 3-6min at 25000'. I didn't see anyone not make it past 3min, most everyone made 6min. Perhaps the oldest guy went 8.5 min. The first to go back on O2 were actually the younger pilots. Only the older guys went over 6 min. Which jives with what high altitude climbing community has been documenting for years that middle aged climbers do far better at altitude than 18 year olds - although I have yet to see anyone in there teens or even young 20's in the chamber.

But the value of the chamber ride IMO is not merely to see how long you can function as your O2 is dropping but for us to see and recognize our own personal symptoms (hear rate, vision, tingles in the fingers etc) and learn about our reduced cognitive abilities as O2 saturation steadily declines.

Yeah, it'll probably kill a few brain cells but the knowledge gained is worth it. surprisingly although many people recognize these symptoms, far too many don't - and maybe someone in the later category should refrain from flying alone in the flight levels. Two people on board and another source of O2 is the strongest defense IMO.

Thanks Paul - all good info.  As a member of the climbing community years ago, we also knew that altitude affected different people differently and it often didn't have anything to do with physical fitness. 

I'm certainly not an expert here, but I do want to know as much as possible about subject, as I do fly in in the flight levels every chance I get. I think the key points for me are...

1. Take all high altitude flight very seriously. Be deliberate, professional, and proactive.
2. Know your personal symptoms of hypoxia and be expecting them.
3. Have a pulse ox and use it. In the absence of an always on, alarming, unit, I set a schedule to check mine regularly, every 10 or 15 minutes.
4. Add the O2 gauges to the regular scan including ships O2 gauge, mask flow rate, pulse ox, sensorcon CO2.
5. Have a second O2 source ready at hand. I keep a can sitting in my lap when I'm on the mask.
6. Use autopilot altitude pre-select with lower altitude loaded and armed so a single button push will send the airplane to lower altitude.
7. Take a second pilot along periodically to verify all of the above.

What else am I missing?

[bonal]

Gixxer I would love the opportunity to take a flight with you into the FL's would no doubt be a great experience but also would like to check out your 252 and get to meet you as I think we share a lot of common interests. But most important I want to be clear I have no hard feelings to any and all that expressed there opinions on the value of instrument training and flight. May we all have a safe year regardless of the conditions we choose to fly.

John

[carusoam]

John,

I've noticed a few common threads along the way...

1) Once you fly a Mooney, There is no going back...

2) Once you fly a FUel injected Mooney, There is no going back...

3) Once you fly a TC'd Mooney, There is no going back...

4) Once you fly a big bore Mooney, there I see no going back...

5) Once you fly on your own IR, There is no going back...

6) Flying in the flight levels, in a 252, with GXSR... sounds like the beginning of an addiction that may be a real challenge to control.

7) Taking a trip to AAA, same thing...

8) Flying to the Summit, same...

9) KOSH, via the Caravan...

10) Mooney Flying to the grocery store....  awesome!  

11) There is always another level...

12) There is always going to be another level...

Stuff that comes to a PP's mind.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Hank]

Yep! Anthony's right. One ride is all it took me, and I stretched, worked with a willing owner and it became mine. In 2007 . . . .

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

Gixxer I would love the opportunity to take a flight with you into the FL's would no doubt be a great experience but also would like to check out your 252 and get to meet you as I think we share a lot of common interests. But most important I want to be clear I have no hard feelings to any and all that expressed there opinions on the value of instrument training and flight. May we all have a safe year regardless of the conditions we choose to fly.

John

John,

You are welcome to fly with me anytime.  And I'd be happy to fly with you as well. There is no doubt I'd learn plenty from a ride in your C/D. Next time I'm in NorCal I need to make some time to get together.

Paul