Is there a 200 kts Mooney?

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Ok, looks like you were holding level in a updraft, so you were pointed at the ground , hence the reason why I ignore performance claims on the internet even with pictures.
You can also go into a short rapid descent, build up speed, level out and take a picture.
I go by POH numbers only.

Believe what you want but no airplane flies POH numbers. Sorry your's is slow... I've got many, many, 5+ hour flights at FL200 and above, I know what mine will do.

[Northern Mooniac]

What are you wearing for O2 at FL200?

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Northern Mooniac said:

What are you wearing for O2 at FL200?

An Aerox mask with mic built in.  My 252 has a kevlar tank in the tail providing ship's O2.

 

[Niko182]

10 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Ok, looks like you were holding level in a updraft, so you were pointed at the ground , hence the reason why I ignore performance claims on the internet even with pictures.
You can also go into a short rapid descent, build up speed, level out and take a picture.
I go by POH numbers only.

if you ever decide to fly your A/C by the POH numbers, you might notice that you are going to need overhauls quite often.
at least that is with the 231's, 252's, encores, and all long body mooneys. I'd also easily believe 200knots at 25,000ft. Top speed
of the 252 was 219knots, so 200knots cruise seems pretty reasonable.

[ArtVandelay]

if you ever decide to fly your A/C by the POH numbers, you might notice that you are going to need overhauls quite often.
at least that is with the 231's, 252's, encores, and all long body mooneys. I'd also easily believe 200knots at 25,000ft. Top speed
of the 252 was 219knots, so 200knots cruise seems pretty reasonable.

My POH has tables with RPM 2000-2700, with HP% as low as 40, so I can fly it at any setting I want and still fly by the numbers, so I don’t know what you mean?
200 does sound reasonable, but I still ignore any claims whether with pics, or not, especially posted on the internet.

[M016576]

3 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

My POH has tables with RPM 2000-2700, with HP% as low as 40, so I can fly it at any setting I want and still fly by the numbers, so I don’t know what you mean?
200 does sound reasonable, but I still ignore any claims whether with pics, or not, especially posted on the internet.

I think what Niko means by POH numbers is the advertised top speed numbers. That certainly was the case with the M20M: hence the bravo mod.  If that’s what he means, I agree with him- seems like those speed record numbers run hot in more ways than one.  But POH numbers in general at the lower %HP shouldn’t be bad- especially with us NA folks.

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, teejayevans said:

My POH has tables with RPM 2000-2700, with HP% as low as 40, so I can fly it at any setting I want and still fly by the numbers, so I don’t know what you mean?
200 does sound reasonable, but I still ignore any claims whether with pics, or not, especially posted on the internet.

Do you understand how it's insulting to be accused of lying about data we post here? You don't have to believe anything, but to post here accusing me of falsifying TAS by posting a picture while in a descent is very insulting. 

[ArtVandelay]

Do you understand how it's insulting to be accused of lying about data we post here? You don't have to believe anything, but to post here accusing me of falsifying TAS by posting a picture while in a descent is very insulting. 

You posted a picture showing (bragging) how fast you can fly, 2 different attitude indicators clearly show it’s in a descent!?!
You tell me sarcastically I’m sorry if your plane is slow...talk about insulting?!

My advice was intended for the OP, if you feel insulted that’s your problem.

[Yooper Rocketman]

Paul's picture of his panel shows he's eastbound at FL250 with 25,000 dialed in the altitude box.  The only way he's going down is coming out of FL270, which looking at his Flight Aware records I've not found one flight he's done that high.  Few autopilots will hold within 100' at FL250 as the air is pretty thin.  I guess I would do a bit more detective work before implying a regular poster here is distorting his documented aircraft performance.  The one thing I've found about airplanes (and muscle cars, snowmobiles, boats and motorcycles) is there is always someone faster than you, no matter how fast YOU (or I) am.

That said, the 252 model designation came from Roy Lopresto getting 252 MPH out of the air frame after his mods (219 knots), being the same concept in the models "201" and "231", obviously at WOT.  Seeing 200 knots TAS in a 252 should not be a big deal.  The "BOOK" numbers on my Rocket show I should see well over 220 knots TAS, which I've never seen.  Paul clearly posted a "real life" flight running at his normal cruise settings.  Not sure where the heart burn is coming from?

Tom

 

[kris_adams]

well put Tom!

[JohnB]

On 10/28/2017 at 6:18 PM, jlunseth said:

I'll just say this.  A few years ago I attend a Mooney PPP, I think it was at Peoria.  The shuttle bus included a Delta crew, my instructor and I, and several other students and instructors.  The Delta crew complained some about the time to get through security, which was at the front door at that airport (for crews).  We dropped them off, bussed the block to the GA terminal, walked in the front door and out the back, and finished our pre-flight.  We could still see that Delta crew standing in line at crew security when we got in and started up, and of course, they were crew not passengers.  It takes me at most 45 minutes to drive to my plane, pre-flight, file a flight plan, and get off the ground, and it takes a minimum of two hours to get to that point flying commercial.  

+1 on my Bravo being faster than the airlines on most trips shorter than Long Beach to Texas, where it’s about even. Yes I usually fly above 14k on longer flights which puts my ground speed at 190 to 210 kts excluding winds. Here’s a comparison, using the start time as the time at where you pull into the driveway of the place you’re going to park and leave the driveway at your destination. Airlines requiring you arrive at least 2 hours (sometimes more) before flight in busy areas. These times are approximate and estimated assuming you’re traveling to and from the same busy airports.

Airlines

25 mins - finding parking in structure, removing luggage from car and walking to check in counter

2 hrs - check in , and security check, shoe removal, waiting at gate for boarding announcement, waiting in line to get on, waiting for everyone to try to fit their oversized luggage into storage bins etc etc.

15 mins- taxi to takeoff position

(flight time)

1 hr - getting off airplane, walking to baggage claim, waiting for and locating  luggage

40 minutes - walking to rental car counter, waiting in line, signing papers, walking to car, driving it through airport check out driveway.

total time excluding flight time 4:20 minimum

 

My Mooney

10 mins - driving directly to plane, unloading luggage from car into plane, reparking car.

35 mins - preflight and passenger loading

15 mins - taxi to takeoff position (same)

(flight time)

20 minutes - landing at FBO , tie down airplane, giving fuel order, unloading bags usually directly into prearranged rental car that meets you.

5 minutes - getting into car and driving to exit.

total non flight time = 85 minutes or 1 hr 25 minutes. 

This is around a 3 hour non flight time difference. So if the airlines flight time is not going to beat mine by more than 3 hours, my Trillian is far faster in driveway to driveway time. I can beat any airlines time going to Las Vegas, San Francisco, Phoenix, Oregon, Santa Fe, but if I were going to New York, commercial would make more sense. It’s about a tie if I were to go as far as Texas using the driveway to driveway time as above.  You also save huge amounts of time by going to the airport closer to your destination rather than the large hub airport. So yes it’s worth it flying GA over commercial into a ton of places. 

John

 

 

 

 

 

[MARZ]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:05 AM, SantosDumont said:

Moving to Vegas completely changed the economics and practicality of the M20F for me. Cruising at 150kts just feels too slow now when I can roll out of bed, drive 10 minutes to McCarran and let someone else drive me at 450kts.

I’ve also found that my tolerance to ride a sky jet ski across choppy air is about 2 hrs before I start telling myself that I’m never strapping myself in this thing again.

So I started looking into upgrade options like the Lancair Legacy, but then I realized that new Mooneys use the same engine.  Do the newer Mooneys with the TSIO-550 really cruise over 200kts, or are they realistically 175kt machines?

I see one gotcha in your requirements - you want to minimize time spent in choppy air, to do so you want to fly at max speed the plane can offer, call me chicken but methinks VNO should be a consideration, especially if your remotely considering an experimental.

[AndyFromCB]

1 hour ago, Mike Ropers said:

I see one gotcha in your requirements - you want to minimize time spent in choppy air, to do so you want to fly at max speed the plane can offer, call me chicken but methinks VNO should be a consideration, especially if your remotely considering an experimental.

He mentioned the Lancair Legacy. IIRC the Vne is somewhere around 275knots on the standard fiberglass airframe and nobody has ever found it on the carbon fiber airframe (it's been dived in excess of 350knots indicated with no ill effects). And being that M20 airframe are not exactly falling out of the sky, I don't see why that's really a consideration other head bumps.

My concern with Legacy is what happens when the fan quits turning. None of the Lancairs or Glasairs ever struck me as the kind of airplane I would like to find myself in without an engine producing power. Supposedly Legacy stalls at 61knots but I think it's wishful thinking as the only one I've ever been in had the owner cross the numbers around 90knots. That's about 20knots faster than a long body M20M airframe. And those are scary numbers even in the flatlands.

Edited November 13, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[MARZ]

1 hour ago, AndyFromCB said:

He mentioned the Lancair Legacy. IIRC the Vne is somewhere around 275knots on the standard fiberglass airframe and nobody has ever found it on the carbon fiber airframe (it's been dived in excess of 350knots indicated with no ill effects). And being that M20 airframe are not exactly falling out of the sky, I don't see why that's really a consideration other head bumps.

I was referring to normal operating ... the OP was specific in the "bumpy" conditions.  If the desire is all out speed that would put the plane in the yellow arc.

Vno - Maximum Structural Cruise Speed - When cruising at, and below, Vno the aircraft should not be damaged by a 30 feet/second vertical gust. It is indicated by the top end of the Airspeed Indicator's Green Arc. Smooth air only for speeds in the Yellow Arc.

[AndyFromCB]

1 hour ago, Mike Ropers said:

I was referring to normal operating ... the OP was specific in the "bumpy" conditions.  If the desire is all out speed that would put the plane in the yellow arc.

Vno - Maximum Structural Cruise Speed - When cruising at, and below, Vno the aircraft should not be damaged by a 30 feet/second vertical gust. It is indicated by the top end of the Airspeed Indicator's Green Arc. Smooth air only for speeds in the Yellow Arc.

Yes, but that's 175 knots indicated in a long body so you're not really running into that issue unless you're descent or all out cruising at sea level. In cruise at 8000ft, you'd have to be doing over 210knots for that be an issue and I don't know of any Mooney capable of doing that even all out.

[Yooper Rocketman]

7 hours ago, Kris_Adams said:

well put Tom!

Kris,

Don't know how long you've been in Griffin GA, but my F model was sold to a doctor based at Griffin and I delivered it to him (at his father's request due to him being low time) circa 1999.  His name was Jim, but I can't remember the last name.  It was tan and brown, N number 929PG.  He called me a couple years later when a mechanic lost his Engine Log, asking if I had enough info to reproduce it.  I did, as it was a factory rebuild with only 3 years on the engine and I still had the records of all the tach times and service we had done to it.  He was pretty happy to get that book brought up to the day I sold it to him.

Tom

[kris_adams]

37 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Kris,

Don't know how long you've been in Griffin GA, but my F model was sold to a doctor based at Griffin and I delivered it to him (at his father's request due to him being low time) circa 1999.  His name was Jim, but I can't remember the last name.  It was tan and brown, N number 929PG. 

Jim Gore...yep know him a little.  He has an amazing RV10 now.  Small world!!

[jlunseth]

8 hours ago, JohnB said:

+1 on my Bravo being faster than the airlines on most trips shorter than Long Beach to Texas, where it’s about even. Yes I usually fly above 14k on longer flights which puts my ground speed at 190 to 210 kts excluding winds. Here’s a comparison, using the start time as the time at where you pull into the driveway of the place you’re going to park and leave the driveway at your destination. Airlines requiring you arrive at least 2 hours (sometimes more) before flight in busy areas. These times are approximate and estimated assuming you’re traveling to and from the same busy airports.

Airlines

25 mins - finding parking in structure, removing luggage from car and walking to check in counter

2 hrs - check in , and security check, shoe removal, waiting at gate for boarding announcement, waiting in line to get on, waiting for everyone to try to fit their oversized luggage into storage bins etc etc.

15 mins- taxi to takeoff position

(flight time)

1 hr - getting off airplane, walking to baggage claim, waiting for and locating  luggage

40 minutes - walking to rental car counter, waiting in line, signing papers, walking to car, driving it through airport check out driveway.

total time excluding flight time 4:20 minimum

John

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, wait, you forgot one thing.  The penalty you pay if you are on a commercial flight that is early arriving, or delayed leaving.  Its the same.  Now the aircraft is out of turn when it gets to its destination, so you get to stand off from the gate anywhere from 10-30 minutes.  A couple of times it has been longer even than that.  I just flew MSP to Reagan, at MSP we were next in line to take off when the Captain came on and told us that because of weather there was going to be a re-route, and they did not have the fuel for it.  So back to the gate area we went, to get fueled up by a fuel truck.  But now we were not just delayed leaving by about 20 minutes, we had about a 45 minute re-route to get around a big weather front.  Now, that would affect either your Mooney or the commercial jet I was on.  BUT (that's a big "but"), now the commercial was around an hour late and had missed its slot for a gate.  Sooooooooo, we sat another 20 minutes before they let us pull up to a gate and get off.  The worst thing a commercial airliner can do is catch a great tailwind and show up 20 minutes early.  You and I would be doing a little dance.  The jet is going to be told to stand off until their gate slot comes around, so alot good that tailwind did.

[Hank]

11 hours ago, JohnB said:

+1 on my Bravo being faster than the airlines on most trips shorter than Long Beach to Texas, where it’s about even. Yes I usually fly above 14k on longer flights which puts my ground speed at 190 to 210 kts excluding winds. Here’s a comparison, using the start time as the time at where you pull into the driveway of the place you’re going to park and leave the driveway at your destination. Airlines requiring you arrive at least 2 hours (sometimes more) before flight in busy areas. These times are approximate and estimated assuming you’re traveling to and from the same busy airports.

Airlines

25 mins - finding parking in structure, removing luggage from car and walking to check in counter

2 hrs - check in , and security check, shoe removal, waiting at gate for boarding announcement, waiting in line to get on, waiting for everyone to try to fit their oversized luggage into storage bins etc etc.

15 mins- taxi to takeoff position

(flight time)

1 hr - getting off airplane, walking to baggage claim, waiting for and locating  luggage

40 minutes - walking to rental car counter, waiting in line, signing papers, walking to car, driving it through airport check out driveway.

total time excluding flight time 4:20 minimum

 

My Mooney

10 mins - driving directly to plane, unloading luggage from car into plane, reparking car.

35 mins - preflight and passenger loading

15 mins - taxi to takeoff position (same)

(flight time)

20 minutes - landing at FBO , tie down airplane, giving fuel order, unloading bags usually directly into prearranged rental car that meets you.

5 minutes - getting into car and driving to exit.

total non flight time = 85 minutes or 1 hr 25 minutes. 

This is around a 3 hour non flight time difference. So if the airlines flight time is not going to beat mine by more than 3 hours, my Trillian is far faster in driveway to driveway time. I can beat any airlines time going to Las Vegas, San Francisco, Phoenix, Oregon, Santa Fe, but if I were going to New York, commercial would make more sense. It’s about a tie if I were to go as far as Texas using the driveway to driveway time as above.  You also save huge amounts of time by going to the airport closer to your destination rather than the large hub airport. So yes it’s worth it flying GA over commercial into a ton of places. 

John

 

 

 

 

 

Great, detailed analysis, John. But it ignores the 2-hour time savings by driving to my Mooney vs. ATL, which takes me 3-1/2 hours down the airway (that I never fly, I get to go direct) before even setting foot onto the airliner.

All things considered, though, even with the 1:15 gate hold this morning while they inspected a panel in the forward cargo hold then moved a lot of stuff around, I'm glad I didn't fly myself 1000+ nm to El Paso today, I'd be much more tired right now (even if we did leave work at 0800 CST and reached the hotel here at 1700 MST).

[N9201A]

You posted a picture showing...2 different attitude indicators clearly show it’s in a descent!?!

Ah, yes, the old “climb to 26,000 feet to push over to 25,000 feet for an MS posting” trick.” Not falling for THAT one again, Rocket!

...Unless of course you were trying to “get it on the step”? Now THAT, I would totally believe! I do believe the speed claim, rumor was even your C was “sneaky fast”!

[peevee]

On 11/13/2017 at 6:13 AM, Yooper Rocketman said:

.  The "BOOK" numbers on my Rocket show I should see well over 220 knots TAS, which I've never seen.  Paul clearly posted a "real life" flight running at his normal cruise settings.  Not sure where the heart burn is coming from?

Tom

 

our rocket ran about 10 shy of book very consistently. I'd usually plan on 210 TAS.

[dfgreene61]

On 10/27/2017 at 7:30 AM, gsxrpilot said:

200 kts won't change any of what you're complaining of. There is almost no scenario were GA is more economical or practical than the airlines. 

We love to fly GA because of many reasons, but if your reasons are economics and practicality, you should probably just fly the airlines.

I've got one.  I have homes in Idaho Falls, ID and San Diego. 5 Hours in my J at 155kts and 11gph.  60 * $5 = $300.

Delta from Idaho Falls - Salt lake - San Diego.  Cost $400-700 for two people.  Time including flight, drive time and waiting for flight: 5 hours min, most times 7 to 9.

My J is quicker and cheaper and way more fun!

 

[jaylw314]

18 minutes ago, dfgreene61 said:

I've got one.  I have homes in Idaho Falls, ID and San Diego. 5 Hours in my J at 155kts and 11gph.  60 * $5 = $300.

Delta from Idaho Falls - Salt lake - San Diego.  Cost $400-700 for two people.  Time including flight, drive time and waiting for flight: 5 hours min, most times 7 to 9.

My J is quicker and cheaper and way more fun!

 

Nice try, but your maintenance cost per hour is probably 1.5-2x your fuel cost per hour (depending on how much you fly), so the actual cost might be something like $450-600.  Then there is the risk of grounding/needing to get alternate transportation which should be factored in as a cost per flight also (and inconvenience).  And commercial is cheaper round-trip, and I haven't yet made a trip where I didn't intend to come home.  I agree flying Mooneyair is more fun, though.

Wierdly, my wife was using this argument on me when she was trying to convince me to buy a plane.  I was the one pointing out it was a BS argument, but she wouldn't let it go.  Now that I had to buy a new prop, she might be thinking twice about it, though.

Edited December 6, 2017 by jaylw314

[dfgreene61]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Nice try, but your maintenance cost per hour is probably 1.5-2x your fuel cost per hour (depending on how much you fly), so the actual cost might be something like $450-600.  Then there is the risk of grounding/needing to get alternate transportation which should be factored in as a cost per flight also (and inconvenience).  And commercial is cheaper round-trip, and I haven't yet made a trip where I didn't intend to come home.  I agree flying Mooneyair is more fun, though.

Wierdly, my wife was using this argument on me when she was trying to convince me to buy a plane.  I was the one pointing out it was a BS argument, but she wouldn't let it go.  Now that I had to buy a new prop, she might be thinking twice about it, though.

Yeah, you could probably add in a couple hundred or so for a 5 hour flight if you worry about that sort of thing.  I'd fly the J if it was twice as much. 

[gsxrpilot]

For those of us who love to fly, it's easy to make a million reasons the Mooney is better than the airlines. I'm certainly in this camp. I'd rather take my 252 than the airlines any day and anywhere.

But for someone who's only criteria is time and expense, I still maintain you can't beat the airlines except for those situations where the airlines just don't fly where you need to go. You certainly have to factor in the entire cost of ownership, not just the cost gas for an individual trip. 

For me personally? I'd prefer the Mooney regardless the time or the money... but then I'm a pilot and therefore hate to be sitting in the back and not logging the time.