Slowing Her Down...

[pilot_jb]

I have almost 10 hours in my new-to-me 1967 M20F.  So far, I have found the transition to the Mooney to be a delight and somewhat easy.  Although my previous airplane was a 1948 Cessna 140, I am versed in flying Diamond DA-20s and DA-40's and regularly fly an RV-6A built and owned by a friend of mine.  Flying the Mooney, especially in the pattern and landing is much like flying a heavy version of the RV-6A, so I've been quite comfortable so far.

Also much like the RV-6A, you have to plan ahead for slowing down.  This is probably more so the case in my Mooney.  My question is what are your procedures for doing so.  I am developed a procedure, but in involves using a pump and a half of "approach" flaps at approximately 130-135IAS.  Doing so brings me right to the gear speed of 120IAS, but I don't typically like using any flaps above the maximum flap operating speed.  

Your procedures to get to gear speed in detail would be greatly appreciated.  

Thanks!

[DXB]

It's worth noting that (1) the flaps speed went from 105 to 125mph in 1968 (2) there are a number of planes (including my '68C) with doublers installed over the center of the rear spar to address cracks resulting from flap use too fast. So I observe the book Vfe, and rarely if ever drop flaps before gear, although there are likely some scenarios where using flaps without gear down may be useful.

My procedures FWIW.  It's not like I have gobs of experience.

-After downwind entry, I  keep altitude while pull throttle back to just before the gear horn sounds - it gets to 120mph gear speed pretty reliably by the time I'm abeam the numbers.

-If I'm really fast approaching the field, I'll pull power way back a bit before downwind entry.  

-If I'm both too fast and way too high approaching the field, I'll level off 5 miles out and then drop gear to use as a speed brake for a steeper descent.  

[201er]

32 minutes ago, pilot_jb said:

I am developed a procedure, but in involves using a pump and a half of "approach" flaps at approximately 130-135IAS.  Doing so brings me right to the gear speed of 120IAS, but I don't typically like using any flaps above the maximum flap operating speed.  

Your procedures to get to gear speed in detail would be greatly appreciated. 

I am in the habit to NEVER deploy flaps before gear. And even though the gear extension speed on my J is 136kias, I use 120kias as my normal gear extension speed. The way to slow down is to reduce power early and to descend to pattern altitude early and level off. You can't descend and slow down at the same time. So descending through about 3000ft AGL, I'll reduce power to around 22 squared and be at around 130-140kias. Then I level off a few miles prior to the pattern which gets me right down to 120kias abeam the numbers on downwind and ready for gear extension. Flaps come after gear.

To sum up, get to pattern altitude a few miles prior to the pattern and use low power level flight as a means to slow down. Regulate the rate of slow down with power.

Edited October 11, 2017 by 201er

[Oldguy]

Ditto on what @201er said about slowing down a J. I use my 430W to plan a 500 fpm descent to get me 3 miles from my destination at an elevation where I can slow and drop to pattern altitude. 

I would recommend you build up a good maintenance fund if you continue to drop flaps at the speed you currently are.

[TTaylor]

Some earlier models had lower gear and flap speeds so it will vary with your model.  I tend to be focused on efficiency  so I don't like to bleed speed needlessly.  Two methods I use:

1. Plan to be down to pattern altitude early. I plan a decent to be at pattern altitude 5 nm  from the entry point.  I use the vertical descent profile in my flight computer, usually targeting 300 fpm.  This gives time for the airplane to slow to gear speed as I enter the downwind and I can drop the gear abeam the numbers.  

2. If I have ended up higher and/or faster than planned, I will descend to several hundred feet lower than pattern altitude while reducing power and then pull back to climb back to the correct altitude and drop the gear as my speed drops into the correct range. Once the gear is out the drag will increase and you can obtain your normal pattern speeds.

I often find I am up in the 140 to 150 knot decent speeds after crossing mountains near the airports and these techniques have worked well to slow the F to correct speeds.

[Bob_Belville]

JB, I don't think anyone here will condone "approach" flaps at IAS above Vfe which is lower than Vlg. For my '66E which is at least as slick as your '67F those speeds are 100 mias and 120 mias. 

Upon reaching pattern altitude with power reduced in the last few miles of descent I find that leveling out at low MAP, maybe 15" and pushing in the prop will slow the plane to Vlg pretty quickly. If you've arrived at midfield down wind and still a little hot pull the nose up for a few seconds will get the speed to Vlg. Next time get down to pattern altitude a mile or 2 before you're in the pattern. Once the gear is out a Mooney no longer is too slick to handle.

I don't think I ever deploy any flaps until I'm on final or close to it on base. 

Similarly on instrument approaches do not be hesitant to get back on the power so that when you reach the glide slope you are below Vlg. Throwing out the gear will usually make it easy to stay on the GS.

Of course if you're landing at a busy commercial field on a 2 mile long runway you can keep your speed up until the last moment once you've gotten a feel for your F. 

[Hank]

The only way to slow down a Mooney is to reduce the throttle and hold altitude or climb. Not being a fan of descending low when not trying to land, I don't dip below pattern altitude [generally 1000 agl]. When I first bought my Mooney, I would try to level off 3-4 nm from the field and just decelerate, as she really picks up steam coming down at 500 fpm [generally ~170 mph indicated]. Sometimes I don't reach TPA that far away anymore . . .

My electric flap speed is actually 125 mph, vs. gear at 120, so I try to have Takeoff flaps out by midfield downwind, then reduce power and drop gear to begin descending.

On instrument approaches, I similarly drop Takeoff flaps and reduce power to hold 90 knots / 105 mph, then drop the gear 1½ dots high on the glideslope, which by itself will start the descent pretty well.

Fly safe, and consider hiring an experienced Mooney CFI for some transition training. There are make- and model-specific things like this that they can help you with. Join MAPA [Mooney Aircraft Pilots Assn., www.mooneypilots.com and consider attending a PPP weekend for good training in your plane.

[Browncbr1]

If arriving Vfr perpendicular to the runway, the turn to downwind will absorb tons of energy and you should be able to drop the gear easily abeam the threshold.   

if IFR, it takes a little more planning to get slow and stabilized for the approach.   I descend power on Vfr, but I reduce rpm and pull inch by inch on IFR descents.   If not, it can be easy to be too hot to drop the gear and stabilize well enough ahead of the final fix.  ATC can sometimes make it easier or harder.   

You should also be cognizant of your gross weight, as it is takes more planning to slow and descend heavy vs light.  

[Bartman]

If the atmospheric conditions are accetable and relatively smooth I descend under reduced power to keep in the green, and maybe into the yellow arc if really smooth. I will arrive at pattern altitude, but I don't try to level off several miles from the pattern. I agree with Bob and if you are in the pattern and a little fast then just back off to 15 or less on MP and raise the nose. She will slow down and only need to climb about 100ft, and when the gear is down she will satay slow enough for flaps which are added incrementally beginning on base turn or as desired.  I agree with Mike that even though my Max extension speed is 132 my procedure is to slow to 120 before lowering the gear.

All of this is assuming VFR. 

[Mooneymite]

Just a thought...but if "something" made one deploy drag over the limit speed wouldn't the landing gear be better than flaps?

That gear seems pretty robust compared to the flaps and I suspect the max speed is to aleviate the load during retraction.  Once down, I'm not sure what part of the gear is vulnerable.  Perhaps the fairing doors?

Obviously, none of us ever have exceeded limit speeds, but we may each know someone.

[Oldguy]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

Just a thought...but if "something" made one deploy drag over the limit speed wouldn't the landing gear be better than flaps?

That gear seems pretty robust compared to the flaps and I suspect the max speed is to aleviate the load during retraction.  Once down, I'm not sure what part of the gear is vulnerable.  Perhaps the fairing doors?

Obviously, none of us ever have exceeded limit speeds, but we may each know someone.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! A Mooney at our field a couple of years ago was able to replace an inner gear door after deploying gear above Vle. Said he did it all the time. At least up until he lost the inner gear door. 

[pilot_jb]

40 minutes ago, Hank said:

The only way to slow down a Mooney is to reduce the throttle and hold altitude or climb. Not being a fan of descending low when not trying to land, I don't dip below pattern altitude [generally 1000 agl]. When I first bought my Mooney, I would try to level off 3-4 nm from the field and just decelerate, as she really picks up steam coming down at 500 fpm [generally ~170 mph indicated]. Sometimes I don't reach TPA that far away anymore . . .

My electric flap speed is actually 125 mph, vs. gear at 120, so I try to have Takeoff flaps out by midfield downwind, then reduce power and drop gear to begin descending.

On instrument approaches, I similarly drop Takeoff flaps and reduce power to hold 90 knots / 105 mph, then drop the gear 1½ dots high on the glideslope, which by itself will start the descent pretty well.

Fly safe, and consider hiring an experienced Mooney CFI for some transition training. There are make- and model-specific things like this that they can help you with. Join MAPA [Mooney Aircraft Pilots Assn., www.mooneypilots.com and consider attending a PPP weekend for good training in your plane.

I was working with a 1000+ hour M20F driver and CFI who used this method when he owned his plane...1-1.5 pumps on approach.  However, I have always flown to make sure I am indicating 5 mph/knots less than published speeds before using any flaps.  I was taught that Vfe is the speed at which any, or all flaps can be deployed...and none prior to.  The difference between "the maximum speed at which flaps can be deployed, and the speed at which maximum flaps can be deployed.  Believe it, or not, I've heard both sides of the argument.  I would like to fly this plane using the same method I was taught.

I'm not a fan of arriving at pattern altitude prior to it being necessary.  I like to keep as much altitude as possible for as long as is practical, and normally fly over the top at 500 above when over the top.  I understand that standard practice may not be possible in the Mooney.  

So far, with the time and distance I've been using from the airport 15" or less has been absolutely necessary.  It would be nice to not have to reduce power to less than 15" just to keep the gear warning from bitching.  But, even at 15" it's been very difficult to get down to 120MIAS.  

I am a member of MAPA, but see very little resources that are available from the association outside of the magazine.  MooneySpace seems like the most knowledgeable resource.  I would love to attend a PPP weekend.  

[Bob_Belville]

JB, I have almost 3000 pic time in old E models with the low gear and flap limits. 

You can descend rapidly in a Mooney, you can slow down a Mooney, and you can maintain power to keep CHTs up in a Mooney,... but not all 3 at once. So..

• I cruise as high as practical for the winds and distance. I pay a price in speed and fuel to get up to 10,000' +/- and I want to cash in that energy I've stored up.
• So I descend at near red line and slightly reduce power shooting for 500'/min or less. (Light+ chop in the yellow is okay by me, and my Mooney is a great deal tougher than I am, YMMV.)
• I like to arrive at 1000 AGL a couple of miles from the airport with IAS about as fast as a little 4 banger is capable of. 
• At that point I level off and pull power back to arrive into the pattern at Vlg. My Mooney is slick but no one is going to mistake it for a sailplane and it cannot maintain speed and altitude without significant thrust. If I pull back the throttle it will slow down. Surprisingly rapidly.   
• It's about that easy. 

[carusoam]

JB,

Great question.

But....

1) Notice all the responses that don't include "I developed a procedure..." 

2) Some Cessnas use the first flap setting without respect for speed.  Doesn't translate well to all planes.

3) Mooneys that ignore the flap speed get expensive crack repairs.

3.5) Mooneys that ignore the gear speeds lose expensive doors.

3.6) Mooneys that ignore turn limits bend an expensive truss.

4) There are training programs that cover these and other important ideas

• MAPA is a good one.
• Transition training with a Mooney specific CFI is another.

5) Going down and slowing down is worth having a known procedure to follow.

6) Getting to gear speed ussually occurs just prior to entering the traffic pattern.  Raise the nose to bleed off speed. The landing gear is a big speed brake.

7) Mooney did a pretty good job of defining limitations.  Some limits were changed over time.  Mostly with changes in the structure that supports the limit.

I probably didn't say this in the proper tone or delivery. Trying to be helpful... I'll work on that.

PP ideas only, not a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

[pilot_jb]

11 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

I probably didn't say this in the proper tone or delivery. Trying to be helpful... I'll work on that.

 

No worries.  I asked the question expecting a certain amount of criticism.  I also asked, because I know that deploying flaps prior to Vfe is a no-no.  

Now I have something to work on the next time I go up.

[carusoam]

There is probably a few threads where people define their descent profile.

Some have mountains, others have Class B airspace to get past in a short distance.

Some use time, Vsi and distance calculations, others use a portable WAAS gps that defines a descent rate to follow.

Many of us refuse to use drag to waste fuel or speed. Look up speed brakes for some wacky efficiency responses...

Descending in my C from 12.5 k', staying above NYC, into the middle of NJ required some throttle control to get to TPA on speed and altitude... doing it in an O isn't much different...

Fun math in a usable real life scenario...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

Still trying to figure out why OP is trying to slow down....  to get the gear out?   pulling up on the yoke will slow you down...

[TTaylor]

1 hour ago, pilot_jb said:

 

I'm not a fan of arriving at pattern altitude prior to it being necessary.  I like to keep as much altitude as possible for as long as is practical, and normally fly over the top at 500 above when over the top.  I understand that standard practice may not be possible in the Mooney.  

Just to clarify, energy is energy.  You can fly low and fast or high and slow and you still have the same amount of energy.   Aircraft live with:

Total energy = mgh + mv^2/2.  We are just trading kinetic energy for potential energy and thus arriving at the same total energy at the same point in space.   

[steingar]

I head downhill at about 160 mph, usually 21' manifold pressure and 2300 RPM.  That can change if I'm coming down from a higher altitude.  This has to be initiated from a ways out,  you chew up a lot of ground moving at that speed in the descent.  Once I'm at or near my pattern altitude and about 5 miles from the airport I reduce manifold pressure to 15" and pitch up.  Within a few seconds the aircraft is at its gear speed (120mph) and then its easy to slow down to flap speed.  I can see why modern Mooneys have speed brakes.  Certainly simplifies things.

[midlifeflyer]

I reduce power incrementally during the descent so when I get down to my target altitude, I am at the power settings that I know will give me the airspeed I want when I level off for the pattern. It’s worked fine in all 30 or so makes/models I fly, including 3 different flavors of Mooney.

edit: I should say "level off for the next phase" which might also be a lower altitude still in cruise or vectoring to the FAC 

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, daver328 said:

extending the flaps at higher speeds ... ????  No dude. As others have mentioned ... can cause damage and cost you some $$$$$. Just don’t. Are you in that much of a hurry? I understand trying to maintain practices you originally learned (CFIs call this law of learning - “The Law of Primacy.”) We tend to stick with what we first learned. That’s normal. My opinion, however,  is you need to un-learn this practice.

This!

The one thing you're doing right is coming to MooneySpace. There is a lot of good info here from some very knowledgeable people.

@Bob_Belville post above is excellent. 

No offense intended, but you need to find a different Mooney CFI. Because the repairs you're about to make on your spar will not be cheap. In fact it would be a lot cheaper to get @donkaye to come to you and teach you how to fly a Mooney. It's not hard to do, but doing it wrong can be very expensive.  

[jaylw314]

For relaxed descents, I decrease power in a couple steps to 19" and 1900 RPM.  The low RPM setting keeps up the engine temps up a bit and further reduces power.  This will get me >500 fpm while clean.

For hurried descents, I decrease power to 22" and 2200 RPM, wait for airspeed to come down to 132 KIAS, then gear down.  If you keep 132 KIAS, you can get >2000 fpm.  This came in handy on the RNAV 21 LPV approach to KSMO.  The MVA around there seems to be 6000 MSL, and you're vectored two miles outside of the FAF where the glideslope intercepts at 2000 MSL, so you have 2 miles to lose 4000 ft!

I don't know what limitations on RPM the OP has, but did I remember correctly the M20F can have its Vfe increased to 132 KIAS by simply replacing the placard via SB?

[MyNameIsNobody]

4 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

JB, I have almost 3000 pic time in old E models with the low gear and flap limits. 

You can descend rapidly in a Mooney, you can slow down a Mooney, and you can maintain power to keep CHTs up in a Mooney,... but not all 3 at once. So..

• I cruise as high as practical for the winds and distance. I pay a price in speed and fuel to get up to 10,000' +/- and I want to cash in that energy I've stored up.
• So I descend at near red line and slightly reduce power shooting for 500'/min or less. (Light+ chop in the yellow is okay by me, and my Mooney is a great deal tougher than I am, YMMV.)
• I like to arrive at 1000 AGL a couple of miles from the airport with IAS about as fast as a little 4 banger is capable of. 
• At that point I level off and pull power back to arrive into the pattern at Vlg. My Mooney is slick but no one is going to mistake it for a sailplane and it cannot maintain speed and altitude without significant thrust. If I pull back the throttle it will slow down. Surprisingly rapidly.   
• It's about that easy. 

+1

[Bob_Belville]

51 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

This is an area where our J has it all over our C.  201 MPH Vno versus 150 MPH and 150 MPH Vlo versus 120 MPH makes all the difference.

Yes, your J can come down at higher IAS and stay in the green. But our older models can come down at about the same speed safely though we'll be in the yellow. I usually cruise at 65% power but when I used to cruise at 75% I would be in the yellow in cruise. Vno in my old E is 130 kcas, Vne is 164 kcas.

The higher Vlg would be nice but I don't think I'd be using it, I have speed brakes which I seldom use. They come in handy when I need to come down at 1000'/min + due to ATC or terrain. 

[JoshMan]

Lower RPMs keep temperature down on decent?