Slowing Her Down...

[jaylw314]

2 minutes ago, JoshMan said:

Lower RPMs keep temperature down on decent?

Lower RPM/Higher MAP produces more heat/cools your engine slower than Higher RPM/Lower MAP.  That applies in all phases of flight

[Bob_Belville]

43 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Of course the J’s Vne is correspondingly higher, too. For me higher is better when it comes to gear, flap, structural cruising, and never exceed speeds.  Not that the lower speeds can’t usually be accommodated by prior planning.  

I have no experience with speed brakes but they would seem to be a nice way to bridge the gap, as you suggested, when forced to by ATC or terrain.  Especially in the short bodies with their lower speeds. They give efficiency freaks like me cold sweats, though.

Yeah but coming into MRN from the west IMC means a MEA of 9000' until 15 nm from the 1270' MSL airport. Even with SBs deployed a 360 or wide pattern is necessary. The other circumstance where I throw out the anchor for a few minutes in to drop down through a cloud layer with embedded bumps. It's not hard to see 1500'/min without getting near red line.  Below the deck retract the SBs.   

[Marauder]

8 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Just a thought...but if "something" made one deploy drag over the limit speed wouldn't the landing gear be better than flaps?

That gear seems pretty robust compared to the flaps and I suspect the max speed is to aleviate the load during retraction.  Once down, I'm not sure what part of the gear is vulnerable.  Perhaps the fairing doors?

Obviously, none of us ever have exceeded limit speeds, but we may each know someone.

I often wonder what really determines the VLe and VLo on our planes. During annual I learned that my gear motor is the same as the early Js. Asked the MSC if I stuck inner gear doors on my plane could use a higher gear speed — the answer was yes. So what makes the inner gears special to allow that to happen?

I was always under the impression that the limiting factor was whether you had the 20:1 or 40:1 gear ratio. 

[Marauder]

I can’t add more than what has already been stated. As a 26 year owner of an F, I have gotten really good at planning my descents and using all of the tricks in the bag - including the TTaylor/Bob’s dip below and pull up technique. 

I do however find that tossing out the flaps at the VFo (109 KIAS for my plane), allows the plane to stabilize around 100 KIAS with a 16” 2400 RPM power setting. 

One thing that was mentioned that needs to be mentioned again is to make sure you stay below VFo/VFe. The damage isn’t cheap to fix. 

[Marauder]

3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I think it is just a piece of paper that differentiates them, Chris. That’s just an unresearched opinion, though. 

I have never gotten a real answer except for the recent MSC comment. And if they are correct, what VLo/VLe can I use? I think later J models have higher speeds than earlier ones. 

[midlifeflyer]

Flaps are not speed brakes.

At one of the schools where I taught, the first presolo phase involved landings with no flaps. They had found that, even in a 172, students tended to use the flaps to slow down and we’re unable to plan and manage their power and performance without them. So, they didn’t use them until later. Much more consistent results with better airspeed control overall. 

file

[Hank]

I know the earlier Vintage wings have a different substructure to support the flaps; my 1970 electric C has higher Vfo, Vfe and Vg than earlier planes.

All the same, I dont use flaps to slow down--but they do make sustained flight at slower speeds more stable and less mushy. My goal is to drop Takeoff flaps at 120 mph just before pattern entry, to stabilize the upcoming flight as I continue slowing to 90 mph.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Hank

[Danb]

As most mentioned planning and developing procedures for your descent profile eliminates one more thought process, unfortunately that all goes to hell in a hand basket when the controller may not know the difference between a Lear and  Piper.

eg. coming into Groton Thursday I was 5000 ft, 180 knots due to descending and was cleared to land,  I expected for the Aopa weekend to go to the initial airport for the Aopa and follow he rest to the airport, nope. Our planes with all the merchandise thrown out can go from 5000 ft at 180 and make it down safely. It's not kind to your ears. Approaching and landing in the manner makes you appreciate following the descending procedures mentioned by most above.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

As most mentioned planning and developing procedures for your descent profile eliminates one more thought process, unfortunately that all goes to hell in a hand basket when the controller may not know the difference between a Lear and  Piper.

eg. coming into Groton Thursday I was 5000 ft, 180 knots due to descending and was cleared to land,  I expected for the Aopa weekend to go to the initial airport for the Aopa and follow he rest to the airport, nope. Our planes with all the merchandise thrown out can go from 5000 ft at 180 and make it down safely. It's not kind to your ears. Approaching and landing in the manner makes you appreciate following the descending procedures mentioned by most above.

Absolutely true. But knowing the profile (and how power changes affect it) still gives you two things: a starting point for those changes and something to go back to when you decide safety requires a more "normal" configuration.

Funny, that "keep your speed up" can also be a "slow to your final approach speed" for slower traffic ahead. I got that once on an instrument approach into KORL. And I was in a 172!

[steingar]

Using flaps to slow down my Mooney would be nearly nonsensical.  They only slow it down about 10 mph (or better yet, that's how much they raise the stall speed).  The biggest effect I've seen on the flaps in my aircraft is they change the pitch angle so I can still see the runway.

The only time I've ever used them is when I've had to descend through broken clouds and need to do so at a lower speed (getting through a layer VFR at 160 mph just isn't doable without pranging the aircraft).  Needing to do that, gear and flaps come in to increase the decent angle.  Only time I use flaps for a descent outside the pattern.

[ArtVandelay]

Absolutely true. But knowing the profile (and how power changes affect it) still gives you two things: a starting point for those changes and something to go back to when you decide safety requires a more "normal" configuration.
Funny, that "keep your speed up" can also be a "slow to your final approach speed" for slower traffic ahead. I got that once on an instrument approach into KORL. And I was in a 172!

I was once asked 3 times to slow down, I was descending, so I went from 160->140, was asked again, speed brakes deployed, slow down to about 120, finally the controller who seemed annoyed said: I want you to slow down to 80 knots! Oh, okay, I did use flaps on that occasion, along with brakes and gear.

[Skates97]

There are all kinds of things you can do to slow down. We were flying to Camarillo from Corona for a breakfast run when we were held at 6,500' because a Beech was at 6,000' and overtaking us. (We were just cruising along in "Sunday Driving Mode.") Turns out he was also going to Camarillo and ended up on his approach in front of us. Like others here I trade altitude for speed on descent to make up for my slow climb and if the air is relatively smooth I descend at 170-180mph IAS. Once I pushed the nose over and speed climbed up to the top of the yellow arc I heard from the Camarillo Tower. 

Camarillo Tower: “November 878, you are overtaking the Beech, advise if you have him in sight.”
Me: “We have him in sight.”
Tower: “He is only doing 120, you are much faster.”
Me: “Roger, we are going to do some s-turns to slow it down.”
Tower: “Roger.”

Some descending S-Turns did the trick to keep us behind him and lose the altitude I needed to, and were fun to do as well.

http://intothesky.us/2017/04/22/camarillo-war-birds-la-tour/

[Hank]

2 hours ago, teejayevans said:

I was once asked 3 times to slow down, I was descending, so I went from 160->140, was asked again, speed brakes deployed, slow down to about 120, finally the controller who seemed annoyed said: I want you to slow down to 80 knots! Oh, okay, I did use flaps on that occasion, along with brakes and gear.

If a controller asked me for 80 knots, I would reply that "unable 80 knots in descent" and ask which he prefers:  80 knots level, current speed in descent, or vectors for traffic? The slowest I aim for is 90 knots on IFR Approach.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Hank

[ArtVandelay]

If a controller asked me for 80 knots, I would reply that "unable 80 knots in descent" and ask which he prefers:  80 knots level, current speed in descent, or vectors for traffic? The slowest I aim for is 90 knots on IFR Approach.

Well, I never got to 80, it was more like 90ish, when I got handed over to tower, they asked me to speed up, I'm guessing to get in front of the traffic I was supposedly following.It was one of those days where showers would cause weather to flip from VFR to IFR and back again.

[Mooneymite]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

If a controller asked me for 80 knots, I would reply that "unable 80 knots in descent" and ask which he prefers:  80 knots level, current speed in descent, or vectors for traffic? The slowest I aim for is 90 knots on IFR Approach.

Hank, next time, just tell him, "point seven mach is about as slow as I can go".   I bet the silence while he contemplates that will be priceless.  

[DXB]

12 hours ago, Hank said:

All the same, I dont use flaps to slow down--but they do make sustained flight at slower speeds more stable and less mushy.

I couldn't agree more - in preparing for the Ripon approach as a first timer into Oshkosh, I practiced a few different configurations for the required prolonged level flight at 90kts IAS.  I ended up using 1/2 flaps, 2300 rpm, 20" - this setting felt very nice and stable to maintain speed and altitude.  Even running 19-squared with no flaps left me too fast, and lower power settings with no flaps produced an uncomfortably nose high attitude for cruise and seemed to require constant control tweaks to maintain speed and altitude.  

[Shiny moose]

IMHO descending into a pattern is not a great idea you may descend into someone flying the in the pattern. Overfly the airport at pattern altitude, traffic will be easier to see as it will not be in the ground clutter (at least even with horizon)  your favorite old timer that has no radios will be happy that you see them, and not drop in front of them or on them 

As for learning to slow down a M20F to gear speeds, simply plan your descent, every thousand feet you need to loose  plan 5 miles, (ex. Need to loose 7000 feet to get to pattern alt start descent at 35 miles out roll the nose down and trim  to top of green(same for smooth or bumpy air for consistency ) reduce power slowly 1 inch per 1000 you descend , minding the mixture, stop reducing power at 15-14 inches level off at pattern altitude a few miles  from  pattern, speed will bleed off after several seconds  and will put you at gear speed abeam the numbers or before, without needing to change power put the gear down and that will slow you to flap speeds, when flaps are all down, trim for airspeed  and start reducing power to control your descent and landing spot . Keep your workload to a minimum, every one has different ways of doing one thing, no need to move prop from high cruise, to low to descend, to high land,  this is just my opinion and will work for you if you are having a hard time

[jetdriven]

Or join the patten at patterns altitude. Left crosswind and turn left, you're on downwind. 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by jetdriven

[Yetti]

I went out and did the 5000 foot slam dunk.   did not seem that difficult.  Gear are your speedbrakes.   Slip if you have to.

 

[steingar]

The controller who asks me to descend at 80 knots from altitude is going to get a one work answer.  "Unable".  Besides, I didn't buy a Mooney to fly slow.

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, steingar said:

The controller who asks me to descend at 80 knots from altitude is going to get a one work answer.  "Unable".  Besides, I didn't buy a Mooney to fly slow.

In almost 50 years of flying Mooneys, mostly on IFR flight plans, I don't believe I've ever been asked to descend at a slow IAS.  OTOH, I have fairly often been asked to keep speed up as long as possible for trailing airline traffic. I flew the ILS into Dulles years ago, 200/1/2, and despite my best efforts the AA behind me was given a go around about the time I touched down. I tried to apologize but the tower assured me it was not my fault, the AA captain had not slowed as instructed. 

With very low gear and flap speeds our vintage Mooneys are much more likely to be slow pokes when landing at commercial fields.  

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

In almost 50 years of flying Mooneys, mostly on IFR flight plans, I don't believe I've ever been asked to descend at a slow IAS.  OTOH, I have fairly often been asked to keep speed up as long as possible for trailing airline traffic. I flew the ILS into Dulles years ago, 200/1/2, and despite my best efforts the AA behind me was given a go around about the time I touched down. I tried to apologize but the tower assured me it was not my fault, the AA captain had not slowed as instructed. 

With very low gear and flap speeds our vintage Mooneys are much more likely to be slow pokes when landing at commercial fields.  

I've gone into DAL (Dallas Love) several times and a few of them were IFR. I don't mind shooting the ILS at 100 knots and landing no flaps at the big airports. It keeps me from slowing everyone down too much and the long runways make it easy to roll it on a little faster. Caravan practice helps as well as they are all no flap 90 knot landings.

[Yetti]

being able to fly it on no flaps should be a trick in everyone's bag.  

[Bob_Belville]

51 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've gone into DAL (Dallas Love) several times and a few of them were IFR. I don't mind shooting the ILS at 100 knots and landing no flaps at the big airports. It keeps me from slowing everyone down too much and the long runways make it easy to roll it on a little faster. Caravan practice helps as well as they are all no flap 90 knot landings.

+1

[luv737s]

I do like in the military, if I am tooo fast before entering the pattern I execute a 360 degree turn (ask tower if required).  If you keep the nose level and power back you will take the speed off.  Try it at altitude and see how much you loose.  I think using the flaps like a speed brake is a bad idea especially at high speeds.  

JMTSW