Mooney down in CT - N53CP

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, steingar said:

To change the fuel I'd have to drain it out the sumps, and then put new fuel back in.  It could be done, but not quickly.  To change the spark plugs I would have to take out the ten thousand screws that hold the nose together.  Again I can do it, but not quickly.  I can't change the air short of super science or magic.  It just is.

Alt spark is going to single mag

alt fuel is changing tanks

alt air is selecting alt air (spring loaded in the vintage birds). 

 

Speaking of alt air, it’s a good idea to verify the spring loaded disc moves smoothly any time you have the cowl open on a vintage bird.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Shadrach

[0TreeLemur]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Speaking of alt air, it’s a good idea to verify the spring loaded disc moves smoothly any time you have the cowl open on a vintage bird.

I've never been shown a spring loaded alt air door on our '67C.   How does one check that?   Photo?  Thx.

[takair]

26 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

I've never been shown a spring loaded alt air door on our '67C.   How does one check that?   Photo?  Thx.

This is on an E.  I think the C uses carb heat as alternate air.

[carusoam]

15 hours ago, skykrawler said:

 

Does the C model have a screen on the tank port?  I can picture a rag being used to clean while fixing a leaking tank.   I though C models were carburated, the report mentions a fuel injector servo and divider.

A C has two screens early on...

• fuel pick-ups have a coarse screen in each tank...
• The next finer screen is at the fuel/water separator... not sure if this screen is before or after the selector valve...

The next screen can be found at the Fuel injector system or carburetor...

As for Cs and fuel injection... some forever-planes get the engine of choice... this owner chose the IO360... there is an STC for that... 

Alt air for a C is carb heat... verify the air valve operation to make sure that the filtered air source gets closed and the alt source under cowl gets opened... there is a butterfly valve that works opposite to what logic suggests, so have the maintenance manual with you while checking the system... this system is known to wear until not working... it has a few links of rusty piano wire... some links may not be present... and hard to tell from the cockpit...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

 

35 minutes ago, takair said:

This is on an E.  I think the C uses carb heat as alternate air.

The J models have a very similar spring-loaded alt-air inlet on the back side of the air box.

[takair]

30 minutes ago, carusoam said:

A C has two screens early on...

• fuel pick-ups have a coarse screen in each tank...
• The next finer screen is at the fuel/water separator... not sure if this screen is before or after the selector valve...

The next screen can be found at the Fuel injector system or carburetor...

As for Cs and fuel injection... some forever-planes get the engine of choice... this owner chose the IO360... there is an STC for that... 

Alt air for a C is carb heat... verify the air valve operation to make sure that the filtered air source gets closed and the alt source under cowl gets opened... there is a butterfly valve that works opposite to what logic suggests, so have the maintenance manual with you while checking the system... this system is known to wear until not working... it has a few links of rusty piano wire... some links may not be present... and hard to tell from the cockpit...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Anthony...you hit on something that I have been wondering about.  The NTSB report indicates a fuel njected engine.  However, the pictures in the docket show parallel valve heads.  I know some experimental will add fuel injection to an O-360...is there a similar STC for a C model?

I’m still trying to figure out why only the left side was blocked.  The pictures suggest that the outlet to the engine was closer to the obstruction.  I suspect the outcome is the same, but it is driving me crazy trying to understand how it was introduced.

[carusoam]

Rob,

IO360 B1B... according to Kathryn.  http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/09/accident-occurred-september-16-2017-in.html
 180hp.

Sounds like the pilot had access to many things that an ordinary pilot would not afford... 

Why he chose this combination is beyond me...  probably a legal method of just adding fuel injection to his original engine...

Proably requires a NASCAR sized budget to work with...

 

Also notes in the report... the selector valve was still working, fuel in both tanks, part of a shop towel slowing the fuel flow...

Great catch on the tech details!

 

one thing that would make a difference in this flight... selecting a higher altitude to fly at generally... improve the chances of getting to the open field....

 

Best regards,

-a-

[skykrawler]

So how many inspect the gascolator and screen every annual? (or know for sure that their shop does it?)

[carusoam]

Expect that to be on the list of important items...

All kinds of dirt and water will be in there.

From my owner assisted annual Mooney experience... 65C that lived outdoors...

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

15 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

So how many inspect the gascolator and screen every annual? (or know for sure that their shop does it?)

If the shop doesn't do it, screen/filter inspection/replacement/upkeep falls under Preventive Maintenance in Part 43 App A (c)23, so an owner can do that if they think it needs it.

 

 

[irishpilot]

On my M20E, on the first annual we checked the screen and found minor debris. It is something that is a good idea to check.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[larrynimmo]

fyi...when I had a fuel leak in my cabin, I had to remove the pick-up tube.   At the inside of the pickup tube is a welded steel screen that wouldn't stop sand particles, but would likely stop shop towel debris from getting by...

[flyer338]

My take away from this accident is the importance of verifying fuel flow from both tanks before take-off. The NTSB report indicates the selector would flow when switched to the other tank.

I have adopted a procedure where I start the engine and taxi on one tank and switch just before doing the run up. I am not sure this the best way though.  My hangar at VGT is only a couple of hundred yards from the run up area. I am interested in others thoughts.

[ArtVandelay]

How long after switching are you actually burning fuel pulled from the fuel tank? And if partially clogged, ground running could go fine, but at full power it could die from lack of fuel (check take off fuel flow).


Tom

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, flyer338 said:

My take away from this accident is the importance of verifying fuel flow from both tanks before take-off. The NTSB report indicates the selector would flow when switched to the other tank.

I have adopted a procedure where I start the engine and taxi on one tank and switch just before doing the run up. I am not sure this the best way though.  My hangar at VGT is only a couple of hundred yards from the run up area. I am interested in others thoughts.

I do switch to test flow from both tanks but not anytime near take off.  So I don’t want to touch that switch within a min of take off.  I turn on let it run a bit while running my start up check list pick up weather and dial in nav into the gps.  Then switch tanks - and watch for any wobble on the fuel flow just in case - then begin taxi.

[Guest]

On 12/22/2019 at 1:55 PM, skykrawler said:

So how many inspect the gascolator and screen every annual? (or know for sure that their shop does it?)

I would hope that it gets done with every Annual, along with draining the carburetor bowl and cleaning the carburetor inlet screen and the servo finger screen on fuel injected models.

I wouldn’t sign out an Annual without doing these critical items.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

On 12/25/2019 at 3:44 AM, ArtVandelay said:

How long after switching are you actually burning fuel pulled from the fuel tank? And if partially clogged, ground running could go fine, but at full power it could die from lack of fuel (check take off fuel flow).


Tom

A fuel injected Mooney is pulling fuel from the opposite tank within about 3-5 sec.  try turning your selector to OFF during taxi and see how long the engine runs...there’s NFW this test will cause what everyone is afraid it will cause...which is an engine that runs on residual fuel from previous selector position and then quits right after take off because of no fuel available in the current selector position..

This one is a mythical beast that will never need to be slayed.

I can’t say how the carbureted birds behave.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Shadrach

[ragedracer1977]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

A fuel injected Mooney is pulling fuel from the opposite tank within about 3-5 sec.  try turning your selector to OFF during taxi and see how long the engine runs...there’s NFW this test will cause what everyone is afraid it will cause...which is an engine that runs on residual fuel from previous selector position and then quits right after take off because of no fuel available in the current selector position..

This one is a mythical beast that will never need to be slayed.

I can’t say the say either way how the carbureted birds behave.

I'm not sure your long it will run at full power, but it will run for at least a minute at idle

[Shadrach]

15 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I'm not sure your long it will run at full power, but it will run for at least a minute at idle

A minute is way longer than I would have guessed. The injected birds won’t go 100ft after the fuel is shut off.

[Ibra]

16 hours ago, flyer338 said:

My take away from this accident is the importance of verifying fuel flow from both tanks before take-off. The NTSB report indicates the selector would flow when switched to the other tank.

I used to go with that as well, in the air I just get ready to switch back and I never run on one all the way to dry, especially when the other one has not yet been tested...

[Hank]

I just start the engine on whichever tank I landed on, and switch to the other one for taxi and takeoff (if it's not almost empty).

[flyer338]

In my C model days for a looong cross country, I would take-off on the left tank, run for one hour, then switch to the right tank. I would run the right tank dry. This took three hour and maybe a few minutes more. I would switch back to the left tank and land within another hour.

I did not have an engine analyzer or fuel flow instrumentation. This gave me a cross check on fuel burn. Before running a tank dry, I had confirmed adequate flow from the other tank. It had the advantage of having all of my remaining fuel in one tank rather than split between two tanks. Using this method was able to fly five-hour legs and land with 12 gallons remaining. Depending on the wind I might go 750 nm or more before landing.

I will probably adopt a similar procedure with the J. But with an engine analyzer and fuel flow instrumentation, I know better my remaining fuel.

 

[gsxrpilot]

8 hours ago, flyer338 said:

In my C model days for a looong cross country, I would take-off on the left tank, run for one hour, then switch to the right tank. I would run the right tank dry. This took three hour and maybe a few minutes more. I would switch back to the left tank and land within another hour.

I did not have an engine analyzer or fuel flow instrumentation. This gave me a cross check on fuel burn. Before running a tank dry, I had confirmed adequate flow from the other tank. It had the advantage of having all of my remaining fuel in one tank rather than split between two tanks. Using this method was able to fly five-hour legs and land with 12 gallons remaining. Depending on the wind I might go 750 nm or more before landing.

I will probably adopt a similar procedure with the J. But with an engine analyzer and fuel flow instrumentation, I know better my remaining fuel.

Good technique... if you actually use a Mooney to travel. I followed this same procedure with my M20C and now with a 252. I have the best fuel information available with CiES senders and an EDM900. But this is still my SOP. And in my belief, the best way to safely get the most range out of the Mooney.

[RLCarter]

My E POH  " The following method is useful for lnonitoring remaining fuel. After take-off with both tanks full, use one tank only until one hour of fuel is depleted from it. Then switch to the second tank and record the time of switch-over on the elapsed time indicator on the panel clock. Use all the fuel in the second tank. Then, the time of fuel remaining in the first tank is the time it took to deplete the second tank, less one hour. However, this will be correct only if the cruise altitude and power setting remain un- changed. If a tank runs dry and the engine loses power, retard the throttle before restarting. Restarting with advanced throttle iiiay cause engine over-speeding and can lead to mechanical malfunction." 

I have yet to run a tank dry to see how far I can stretch the fuel

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, RLCarter said:

If a tank runs dry and the engine loses power, retard the throttle before restarting. Restarting with advanced throttle iiiay cause engine over-speeding and can lead to mechanical malfunction.

I've run a tank dry several times in both the M20C and now the 252. I've never experienced this. I always just switch tanks as soon as the engine stumbles and loses power. I've never seen any hint of an overspeed or other problem.

The POH in my 252 says something similar. But there's never been an issue.