Mooney down in CT - N53CP

[carusoam]

FAA accident research doesn’t google MS...  

reminder... if the fuel selector switch isn’t operating smoothly... get it fixed before it jams in a non-working position...

PP thoughts, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-
 

“Additionally, a homemade tool constructed of PVC pipe and connection fittings was found in the wreckage that appeared to be designed to manipulate the fuel selector; however, the reason for its fabrication and use during the accident flight could not be determined. The device was broken at its handle.“
 

[DXB]

"Disassembly of the fuel selector revealed a piece of red, fibrous material consistent with a shop towel that likely inhibited fuel flow to the engine and resulted in fuel starvation"

One has to wonder how that got in there. I hope it doesn't give anyone I might have offended on Mooneyspace any ideas...

[carusoam]

Dev,  

reminder: always make sure your mechanic is happy when cleaning parts on your plane... 

getting fibers past two fuel screens is required to get that far...

Be extra cautious when participating in owner assisted annuals...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

“Additionally, a homemade tool constructed of PVC pipe and connection fittings was found in the wreckage that appeared to be designed to manipulate the fuel selector; however, the reason for its fabrication and use during the accident flight could not be determined. The device was broken at its handle.“

I was under the impression that most people here who use a tool to switch tanks use it not because the selector is hard to move, but because it is difficult moving their bodies to reach the selector down between their feet . . . .  But I could be wrong, I grab the selector with my fingers and flip it. Two detents, don't want to stop at OFF.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Hank

[Gagarin]

5 minutes ago, Hank said:

I was under the impression that most people here who use a tool to switch tanks use it not because the selector is hard to move, but because it is difficult moving their bodies to reach the selector down between their feet . . . .  But I could be wrong, I grab the selector with my fingers and flip it. Two detents, don't want to stop at OFF.

You are correct is not easy for overweight pilots to lean over and switch tanks when the selector is between your legs. This is what the extension tool is used for. The pilot may had been unable to find the tool to switch tanks. I had an M20C and it was cumbersome for me to switch tanks, on my M20J now it is a piece of cake switching tanks. 

[carusoam]

We have a few reports where people described difficulty turning the valve... thinking it was normal and age related...

So... I feel compelled to say... that’s not normal... and can end up stuck in a non-flowing situation...

Under normal conditions of dirt and grime build-up... we get plenty of warning...

Annual makes a good time to clean and lubricate the operation...

Be extra cautious with the cleaning towels that you use... Buy packages of clean, non-ragged ones...

 

The purpose of the ‘tool’... it’s an arm extender.... to reach the ground where the valve is...

I’m pretty sure you have to be near standard pilot dimensions to use the valve comfortably.

The tool is well designed to not be much of a torque supplier... it clearly breaks prior to ripping the valve apart...or simply snapping the handle off the valve...

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

The fuel switch in my aircraft is directly aft of the cabin heat vent, and my switch has no cover.  I have seen rubber covers on them. At any rate, the switch gets very hot and I usually use something, like a piece of cloth or napkin or the sleeve of my jacket, whatever is available in the cockpit, to move the switch.  Don’t know the switch layout of the subject aircraft, but if it is at all like mine I can understand using a tool like the one he had fabricated.  Does not indicate anything at all except tired of burning fingers. Probably no time to switch tanks at that altitude if the engine stopped when the debris entered the line, and no time for a re-start.  Probably the fuel was flowing fine and the engine was working one moment, and not the next.

[Shadrach]

12 hours ago, jlunseth said:

The fuel switch in my aircraft is directly aft of the cabin heat vent, and my switch has no cover.  I have seen rubber covers on them. At any rate, the switch gets very hot and I usually use something, like a piece of cloth or napkin or the sleeve of my jacket, whatever is available in the cockpit, to move the switch.  Don’t know the switch layout of the subject aircraft, but if it is at all like mine I can understand using a tool like the one he had fabricated.  Does not indicate anything at all except tired of burning fingers. Probably no time to switch tanks at that altitude if the engine stopped when the debris entered the line, and no time for a re-start.  Probably the fuel was flowing fine and the engine was working one moment, and not the next.

Switching tanks under duress takes a few seconds at most. The engine will take another 4-6 secs to start producing power (though it will feel like longer)..  Unfortunately, I gained first hand experience under duress many years ago.

is there no way to insulate your switch from whatever is causing the heat? Also seems like a recipe for vapor lock.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Shadrach

[steingar]

I thought about the fuel switch when I first heard about this, but I doubt anyone with the kind of chops sported by the accident pilot wouldn't be switching tanks at low altitude over hostile terrain.  I switch mine at the top of the descent.  FOD in the engine is really sobering.  I fly at low altitude and low power over hostile terrain all the time, have to to land some of the places I do.  Engine cuts out over any of these places and I'm as dead as those guys.

I think I choose not to think about it.  Bourbon is very helpful intros regard.

[jlunseth]

Ross, I also have found need to switch tanks under duress and it took seconds.  The difference between my experience and what happened in the accident was that my engine never stopped.  The engine in the subject aircraft obviously did. It is an entirely different thing to re-start a stopped fuel starved engine than one that is still pumping.  At that low an altitude all he had was seconds before the trees, no doubt he had to switch to maintaining best glide and flying the plane into the terrain rather than to attempt re-start. All this says, is the existence of the hand made tool does not infer a problem with the switch. There are several benign explanations for a handy thing like that.  

My switch is a pain (literally) but I have had several mechanics look at it.  I have flown the aircraft for 1200 hours and the pilot before me obviously flew it for several hundred also, without there being a problem.  I am not going to worry about it. Better to live with a non-issue than have someone try to fix it for me and find that the fix, like a cover of some kind, jams the switch when I need it.  

[Marauder]

I've read the comments in the accident report about the PVC fuel switch adapter most of us supposedly "overweight" guys carry on-board. The issue isn't being overweight, if you are a tall person, you need to slide the seat back to reach forward to get to the selector switch. The design of the fuel selector switch being in the pilot's foot well is just a poor design. Obviously Mooney addressed this issue later with the fuel selector being moved to the center position under the power controls. Has anyone ever attempted to relocate the fuel selector to this position?

As for the accident report finding the PVC adapter broken. I wouldn't be surprised that in a panic, it got broken trying to use it. I saw John Breda's effort to work a solution. It is an area of concern that obviously was a contributing factor to this accident. Just curious if anyone has attempted to address it.

[Shadrach]

25 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

Ross, I also have found need to switch tanks under duress and it took seconds.  The difference between my experience and what happened in the accident was that my engine never stopped.  The engine in the subject aircraft obviously did. It is an entirely different thing to re-start a stopped fuel starved engine than one that is still pumping.  At that low an altitude all he had was seconds before the trees, no doubt he had to switch to maintaining best glide and flying the plane into the terrain rather than to attempt re-start. All this says, is the existence of the hand made tool does not infer a problem with the switch. There are several benign explanations for a handy thing like that.  

My switch is a pain (literally) but I have had several mechanics look at it.  I have flown the aircraft for 1200 hours and the pilot before me obviously flew it for several hundred also, without there being a problem.  I am not going to worry about it. Better to live with a non-issue than have someone try to fix it for me and find that the fix, like a cover of some kind, jams the switch when I need it.  

Yes I know. About ten years ago our left sump drain started weeping at the outlet. Just enough to make it blue and stick. The plan was to fly the plane as usual but to add no fuel to the left tank. When the left tank emptied it would be drain of unusable fuel and the sump changed. I was distracted at the top of the descent by a radio call. I was running my prelanding checklist at about 1200 ft on a strait in final when the engine quit. It was scary in that I had made a grievous error. From an energy standpoint it was a non issue. Engine windmilling to tank switch to boost pump on to engine running again took about 5 secs in total and less than 100ft. 

It took less time for me to get the engine running then it would’ve for me to establish Vbg and run a restart checklist.

Other power plants may react differently.

I still count that as one of the stupidest things I’ve ever done. I’m glad I was alone.

[DXB]

Obesity, tall height, any kinda aches and pains do make it harder to turn the fuel selector in the vintage birds, as does needing to focus urgently on flying the plane in an engine out.  I am short and skinny but groaned the other day during the tank switch because my back was killing me after going on a long run the previous day.  Sometimes needing to unlatch ones shoulder harness to bend over doesn't help either - not something you wanna do when in trouble out close to the ground, lest you have trouble relatching.  I do wish the selector could be relocated.

One thing I used to do when I first got the plane was sit in it while in the hangar and practice the engine out cockpit flow until it becomes motor memory and not cognitive.  I should probably come back to this practice.

For me the flow is MIXTURE->CARB HEAT->FUEL SELECTOR->BOOST PUMP->L/R MAG.  It becomes like one sweeping motion of your body from right to left rather than discrete steps to think about, like a well-rehearsed dance move.  A simultaneous move while reaching for the mixture and carb heat is to lean ones torso to the right to make the shoulder harness less restrictive before reaching for the fuel selector.  

[gsxrpilot]

This is one of the reasons I like to occasionally run a tank dry at altitude in cruise. I experience the effect of fuel starvation and get the experience of switching tanks and the restart of the engine. I'm hoping that if I had an unexpected fuel starvation situation at low altitude, the response will be instinctive and quick.

I'm not suggesting everyone should do this, but just something I do and feel good about.

[Marauder]

14 minutes ago, DXB said:

Obesity, tall height, any kinda aches and pains do make it harder to turn the fuel selector in the vintage birds, as does needing to focus urgently on flying the plane in an engine out.  I am short and skinny but groaned the other day during the tank switch because my back was killing me after going on a long run the previous day. 

Look at the bright side of this. At least it is not rigor mortis.  

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

This is one of the reasons I like to occasionally run a tank dry at altitude in cruise. I experience the effect of fuel starvation and get the experience of switching tanks and the restart of the engine. I'm hoping that if I had an unexpected fuel starvation situation at low altitude, the response will be instinctive and quick.

I'm not suggesting everyone should do this, but just something I do and feel good about.

I think that the fact that I have run a tank dry dozens of times in flight over the years has given me muscle memory. If my engine quits in flight switch tanks, boost pump are first on the list . 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Shadrach

[gsxrpilot]

22 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I think that the fact that I have run a tank dry dozens of times in flight over the years. If my engine quits in flight switch tanks, boost pump on are first on the list . 

Yep, automatic, muscle memory. It might or might not be quick enough. But I gotta think the chances are better than if it was a new experience and the first action was to stop and say to myself, "What was that?"

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yep, automatic, muscle memory. It might or might not be quick enough. But I gotta think the chances are better than if it was a new experience and the first action was to stop and say to myself, "What was that?"

Or he struggled with the pvc tool, broke it, then struggled to reach the selector.

[skykrawler]

Somehow the NTSB (investigator) does not understand why the tool is needed.  Makes me wonder what else they don't understand.

Regarding hot fuel selector....I regulate the outflow air temperature by regulating the heat from the exhaust muff and adding cool air to keep the temperature from the floor vent from being so hot.    I don't like the heat buildup under the panel when the heat is set high - radios transmitters will shutdown.

Does the C model have a screen on the tank port?  I can picture a rag being used to clean while fixing a leaking tank.   I though C models were carburated, the report mentions a fuel injector servo and divider.

[Shadrach]

21 hours ago, Marauder said:

I've read the comments in the accident report about the PVC fuel switch adapter most of us supposedly "overweight" guys carry on-board. The issue isn't being overweight, if you are a tall person, you need to slide the seat back to reach forward to get to the selector switch. The design of the fuel selector switch being in the pilot's foot well is just a poor design. Obviously Mooney addressed this issue later with the fuel selector being moved to the center position under the power controls. Has anyone ever attempted to relocate the fuel selector to this position?

As for the accident report finding the PVC adapter broken. I wouldn't be surprised that in a panic, it got broken trying to use it. I saw John Breda's effort to work a solution. It is an area of concern that obviously was a contributing factor to this accident. Just curious if anyone has attempted to address it.

I think the best way to address it is to figure out a way to reach the selector. I realize not everything works for everyone. It never occurred to me that this was a bad design until joined this forum years ago. I’m 5’10 and no matter if I’m a svelt 175 or a porky 210, the selector is non issue. I think the arm length to torso ratio must be the issue. 

[Marauder]

I think the best way to address it is to figure out a way to reach the selector. I realize not everything works for everyone. It never occurred to me that this was a bad design until joined this forum years ago. I’m 5’10 and no matter if I’m a svelt 175 or a porky 210, the selector is non issue. I think the arm length to torso ratio must be the issue. 

When I was in my 30s it was always a difficult reach. At a minimum I needed to release the shoulder belt (remember our Fs did not come with shoulder belts). As I got older, sliding the seat back and reaching worked. As I got even older, if I didn’t have the PVC tool, I could not reach it.

Wait until Mother Nature catches up with your young body. You will get a first hand experience. I know there are older shorter pilots than me who can’t reach it without the tool (I’ve flown with them).

I can appreciate the predicament the accident pilot was in if he knew he had to reach the selector in an emergency. I worry about it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[steingar]

I can reach the thing just fine even though I sit right on top of it (seat is on the first hole for my diminutive self).  I do have to take off the shoulder harness, and I prefer to look at it, so I don't accidentally stop at the "off" detent.  Hence I change tanks at the top of the descent.  

Takes a few seconds.  I suspect were I trying to do it under duress it might take a few seconds more.  We aren't always at our best under duress.  Haven't run a tank dry yet, but I will sooner or later, just to see who the aircraft reacts.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

When I was in my 30s it was always a difficult reach. At a minimum I needed to release the shoulder belt (remember our Fs did not come with shoulder belts). As I got older, sliding the seat back and reaching worked. As I got even older, if I didn’t have the PVC tool, I could not reach it.

Wait until Mother Nature catches up with your young body. You will get a first hand experience. I know there are older shorter pilots than me who can’t reach it without the tool (I’ve flown with them).

I can appreciate the predicament the accident pilot was in if he knew he had to reach the selector in an emergency. I worry about it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

I’m going to be 50 in less than 5 years! Proof that no matter how old one gets, one is always a wippersnapper in someone’s eyes! I’ll take where I can get it!

I do think it has to do with body type (not weight though that certainly could be a factor). I know guys in their 40s that use them. Then there’s my 81 year old father that has never felt the need for a tool (he stopped flying single pilot at 77). 

[mike_elliott]

20 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I think that the fact that I have run a tank dry dozens of times in flight over the years has given me muscle memory. If my engine quits in flight switch tanks, boost pump are first on the list . 

Three things make an engine run,,fuel, air and spark. Practice changing all three quickly. Dont forget alt. air...

[steingar]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Three things make an engine run,,fuel, air and spark. Practice changing all three quickly. Dont forget alt. air...

To change the fuel I'd have to drain it out the sumps, and then put new fuel back in.  It could be done, but not quickly.  To change the spark plugs I would have to take out the ten thousand screws that hold the nose together.  Again I can do it, but not quickly.  I can't change the air short of super science or magic.  It just is.