Slips; demonstrated X/W (E)

[chrixxer]

1. Does the 1966 M20E have a demonstrated cross-wind component? I can't find one in the POH. I flew into Heber City a couple of weeks ago (runway 22) and winds were 260 @ 19 gusting 25. The 'E and I handled it fine, actually better than I'd expected as I had <20 landings in her at that point and none with any real cross-wind. Later, my boss' wife commented that the cross-wind component was only 11 knots and I'd exceeded it - they used to have an M20J and that information is valid for the 201, but not for the E ...?
2. Is there any issue with slipping the E in for a landing? With the mini-route over LAX closed more often than not these days, and the general chaos at SMO anyway (the other day I was restricted 4000' or above - for a 200' MSL field - until my base turn!), I'm often trying to shed 4000'+ in a hurry to get in for a landing. (SMO is bordered by LAX Bravo surface area to the south and west, by mountains to the north, by Burbank Class C and Century City skyscrapers to the northeast/east ...) I've had good luck doing steep turn 360s to bleed altitude, but the other day coming over the hill straight in from Burbank, and restricted to 2000' until final, I gave it some heavy right foot and slipped it down. (Not quite Arrow brick-like in its descent, but still much faster getting down than just trying to plunge, and kept my CAS around 100, vs. tickling VNE.) Also can't find any mention of this in the POH, whereas, e.g., the SR22 specifically says: “Avoid prolonged slips.”

Edited July 14, 2017 by chrixxer

[Skates97]

I slipped my M20D down about a 4 mile final to lose 3,000' going into Gillespie once. From what I have read here in the long bodies it is an issue but with a short body i think it's just another tool to use if/when necessary.

[Yetti]

If you have a good headwind full flaps and gear down and they helicoper down pretty well.

For gusty crosswind they will do one wheel landings pretty well.  It keeps the tail from getting blown around when you get slow.

[Vance Harral]

Per the M20 TCDS, the M20E was certified to CAR 3 standards, while the M20J was certified to CAR 3 plus a bunch of specific items from FAR 23.  FAR 23 requires certain data be published in the POH.  My guess is that's why the M20J and later models have published demonstrated crosswind components, while earlier models do not.

The fact the M20E POH doesn't have a max demonstrated crosswind component doesn't mean one wasn't demonstrated - the CAR 3 standards require a max demonstrated crosswind component of at least 1.2 Vs0.  It's probably published "somewhere".  However, it doesn't matter if you know it or not.  It's not a legal (or practical) limit for GA airplanes certified under CAR 3 or FAR 23 and operated under part 91.  Even in an M20J, it's not illegal or impractical to land with a crosswind component in excess of the max demonstrated crosswind component published in the POH.

[Wildhorsesracing]

I slip mine all the time, and have landed in crosswinds in excess of 20 mph - but I have a short body 'C' and do many things with mine that the average Mooney owner would cringe at.

[KLRDMD]

4 hours ago, chrixxer said:

1. Does the 1966 M20E have a demonstrated cross-wind component?

It doesn't matter. A demonstrated crosswind component is not a "limitation" of the airplane only a number that had to be "demonstrated" for some, but not all, airplanes. Land with whatever crosswind you and the airplane can safely do at the time.

[chrixxer]

9 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

It doesn't matter. A demonstrated crosswind component is not a "limitation" of the airplane only a number that had to be "demonstrated" for some, but not all, airplanes. Land with whatever crosswind you and the airplane can safely do at the time.

No, I know, I was just wondering out of curiosity mainly.

[carusoam]

X-wind capability from a mechanical point of view. Tail effectivity is key...

The M20C got a longer rudder throw (more movement) than the M20B.

For the M20C around 1966, the tail got longer...

Having the longer rudder and full authority is better for X-winds...

After that, its all pilot skill...

Nothing like running out of rudder in a X-wind landing...

Also recognize while you are putting in large rudder doses, It may require a fair amount of power to offset the braking activity of the rudder...

demonstrated X-wind capability is an odd and often misleading piece of data... it is so Pilot and condition dependent..

PP ideas only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

I've landed my C with winds 20G28, 50° left of the runway, in Rapid City. I've also helicoptered down long finals, and when held to 4500 until 4nm from  my home field at 567 msl, I'd just swing a couple of miles east and do a 360 or two. Our planes will go down or slow down, you just need to pick one or the other. 

My Owners Manual does not list demonstrated speeds or limits for crosswind, altitude, slips, etc. Try it out, if you are uncomfortable or can't hold centerline or descend fast enough, go around and try again with a better setup  or go somewhere more aligned into the wind.

The fun one was picking up the DPE for my IFR checkride, landing on 23 at KCRW; winds were 280V320 and gusting into the teens. The plane handled it just fine . . . .

[gsxrpilot]

IIRC it's very low like 11 knots or something. 

[Gone]

12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

IIRC it's very low like 11 knots or something. 

I do not remember where I heard this too, but that appears to be the same number.  "Demonstrated" by someone like Bill Wheat to the FAA certification guy during the certification flight.

If a person flying an E model with such knowledge attempts to land it in conditions where the crosswind component is greater than 11 kts, they are a "test pilot."  

I have done it in mine up to 17 kts of crosswind component (and added to my checklist as max demonstrated on 15 Aug 2007) and I enjoy crosswind landings.  This one was a conscious decision to try it before going to the big international airport and put it down directly into the wind on 8000' of wide runway.  Apparently it worked and a go-round was not needed.  

My checklist also has me add 5 mph to final approach speed for every 10 kts of crosswind component and subtract 5 mph for every 300 lb under max gross.  

TO flaps are only for 5 kts of crosswind.  1 pump of flaps for 10 kts of crosswind.  Zero flaps for more than 10 kts of crosswind. Flaps cause over-reaction of the wing to gusts.

I tend to slip it on final.  Upwind wing down enough to keep the trajectory on the extended centerline and enough opposite rudder to keep the nose on the centerline. Works great in a short body.  However, as someone has said, it does not appear to work so well on the long body Mooneys.

 

[M20F]

Demonstrated crosswind is just that, what somebody demonstrated and it is not a regulatory limit (in other words just some guidance).  

From a practical stance you are going to lose ability to keep aligned with the rudder first.  That just means you have to crab and kick (or land with side drift) and then your limit becomes your landing gear.  

At higher crosswind components it becomes less about control and more about how much punishment you want to put on the tire and the gear.  

[cctsurf]

Also remember that the "demonstrated crosswind" is landing without rudder input.  It is more of a judge of the strength of the landing gear than of the plane's actual crosswind handling.

I have personally been in a short body when the pilot smoothly landed in direct crosswinds 30 gusting 50mph...  This was during my transition training with an extremely experienced Mooney pilot.  I flew down the runway and he was telling me that I was using too much rudder input!  I can't imagine what the later, longer rudder would allow.

As to the strength of the gear, I can attest to the fact that it is quite strong in side load.   (Again, in my transition training) I had the plane skidding down the runway at quite an angle to the runway with no ill effects to the gear upon inspection.

[HRM]

17 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

I slip mine all the time, and have landed in crosswinds in excess of 20 mph - but I have a short body 'C' and do many things with mine that the average Mooney owner would cringe at.

...and if you had an E.

I crabbed into KEDC a few weeks ago and my son was on the ground watching and couldn't believe that a plane could come in sideways 

[Wildhorsesracing]

6 hours ago, cctsurf said:

As to the strength of the gear, I can attest to the fact that it is quite strong in side load.   (Again, in my transition training) I had the plane skidding down the runway at quite an angle to the runway with no ill effects to the gear upon inspection.

I'll agree to that, I've had the tires squealing a few times trying to grip enough pavement to keep it on the runway in strong crosswinds. Don't forget to use differential braking if you need to keep it straight while landing in stronger crosswinds.

[carusoam]

I found a resource that would give a 'demonstrated cross-wind landing' number...

It also gave recommend speeds for chandelles and lazy eights in the same section...

Unfortunately, it wasn't a Mooney POH...

The C152 has a demonstrated cross-wind capability of 12kts... not documenting very much.  In reality, a skilled pilot consistently handles much more...

It was a one liner in a 300 page book.

I like Ned's Logic for how much energy to add to the system in a Don Kaye sort of way...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[MBDiagMan]

I went from a Cessna 140 to the Mooney.  I was in the habit of slipping the Cessna pretty hard.  It's the way I was trained as a trick to have up your sleeve if needed in preparation for an emergency landing.  In my Mooney transition training I came in high on final and asked the instructor if slipping was okay.  He said "of course."  I slipped it pretty hard and bled off some altitude.  He commented, "I never saw anyone slip a Mooney that hard," but he didn't say there was anything wrong with it, so although I haven't slipped it that hard since then, from that episode I have the feeling that you can slip it about hard as you like as long as you keep the nose down.

Also, I don't know if this is correct, but I suspect that slipping to lose altitude is more effective in a high wing airplane, but I have no facts or evidence to support that theory.

My $0.02,

[steingar]

Lots of occluded fields here, I slip mine all the time.  Cross wind landings have been a bit of a worry. In my old Cherokee if I couldn't hold the runway centerline with rudder (I.e. too much wind) I'd go around and come in faster. Worked every time, though I did use more runway. There was an instance in WV where I used up ALL 3000 feet of that runway.  That was a really tough landing.

I've been hesitant to take this approach in the Mooney because of the clean design and tendency toward float. Fortunately my new airport has crossed runways, so this is no longer such a big worry.

[Yetti]

17 hours ago, cctsurf said:

As to the strength of the gear, I can attest to the fact that it is quite strong in side load.   (Again, in my transition training) I had the plane skidding down the runway at quite an angle to the runway with no ill effects to the gear upon inspection.

Which is why landing upwind wheel first is a trick to have in the bag.  It does side load the gear a little as my instructor found out when he moved to Alaska and tried to to is on an icy runway.   There is some grip that is needed, but it is pulling the gear to the outside which is against the stops.  it does not take much to get the upwing wing so the winds and gusts are not trying to pick it up.

[gsxrpilot]

This video of the Mooney Caravan 2014 arrival into Oshkosh shows Mooneys landing in a gusty crosswind, and some in the rain. The cross wind got worse as we got to the end of the line. But you can see upwind wheel landings from almost all elements. The pairs of Mooneys are landing side by side on 34L. Its a good demonstration of crosswind control when you only have HALF the runway width to work with.

 

[carusoam]

Things my M20C taught me....

1) It is a tool, not a trick... trick implies some form of magic..?

2) Effective, sure... it generates a huge amount of energy dissipation. Doesn't matter if the wing is over your head or below your waste...

3) The amount of cross control a pilot can use is pretty closely tied to....

• putting the rudder pedal to the floor
• length of the rudder
• length of the rudder throw

4) when you run out of rudder, it is a good sign that finding a different runway may be a good idea...

5) The goofiest thing I didn't learn until after I did it...

• entry into a cross controlled state should be smooth and gentle.
• exit from a cross controlled state should be smooth and gentle.
• avoid having your feet slip off the rudder pedal

The plane is going slowly, at a low altitude. Abrupt inputs or abrupt release of rudder control can generate some pretty quick rotation of the airframe. The oscillations are pretty dramatic.  A set-up for a stall/spin.

6) Yes, Keep the nose down.

7) consider for a moment... Rate of turn is one thing, the rate of change of the turn is another... snapping into or out of a bank... stomping on a rudder pedal quickly, or having your foot slip off the rudder pedal that is pressed to the floor... can generate some control inputs that may be harder to undo... think rotational momentum!  ... avoid high rates of rotation...

PP thoughts only. Not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

Nothing in my POH on X-wind component but there was a "CheckMate" checklist in the plane that had it at 13mph (11kts). 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks for the video Paul.  I enjoyed it immensely!

[StinkBug]

Lots of input on the Xwind component here so I'm not even gonna add to that. I can give specific experience on the problem of getting down to SMO from the south. I assume you're using the SFRA, so coming north west bound at 4500. As soon as you clear the LAX bravo call SMO, they will simply tell you to make right traffic. Tell them you'd like a left 270 to join the downwind, they will give it to you, they know the deal. At this point drop the gear and flaps to get slow. Then continue past the airport as far as you feel comfortable going towards the hills, make that 270 big enough and you can easily get to pattern altitude without any slipping or extreme maneuvers. I generally end up nearly passing over pacific palisades and going off shore a little. The tower knows you need to bleed altitude and are used to people doing exactly that. This is pretty much how I get to SMO every time I go, including when I take my girlfriend whose ears cannot take any kind of a rapid descent.

[Yetti]

Learned from that video.... I think I want to build a flasher circuit for the landing light.