New plane, noob mistakes, buying experience with Skywagons L.L.C.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Hey Don, I agree.  Stuff happens, you can't find everything,  I discover new things every other week.  It's 120F degrees today and will be 110+ for awhile so my second job at Goodyear airport (GMA'S Couch) will have to wait for early weekend hours.  I work outside and we use the saying:  "Work from 5 to 105".  

[larryb]

A few years ago I was under contract to buy a Mooney from Mark at sky wagons. It was his "personal" plane. Sent it for pre buy at laser and they found $15,000 worth of discrepancies. Mark and I did not come to terms with the list and parted ways without a sale. A few months later, after I bought my J I came across the Mooney I passed on at Top Gun getting some work done. I asked about it and they said it was "ok" but had not seen a Mooney shop in a long time.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

LarryB, They have some weird terms in their contract too one clause is that the findings of the pre-buy are not to be used to negotiate the price.  The contract is 100% refundable so the point is moot, since you can walk if they don't negotiate. I did negotiate 2000 off.  I think Mark is in the business of selling planes first, I'm irritated because his employee Kerry ferried the plane to me (3+ hours) and said the transponder was the only problem (which they paid for).   I think it will be ok, I'm willing to do all the allowed stuff and assist in the other stuff.  In the end, they were either trying to move a plane and hiding issues, or they were trying to move a plane and not noticing them.  It's water under the bridge.  I don't know that I will sell my plane after I have her all straightened out, just to avoid this kind of thing.   

[HRM]

20 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Also here are a couple pics of the older woman who takes all my time!  

Those two of the outside are really spectacular! I especially liked the sun glint off the spinner.

[carusoam]

It is good to be mechanically ept.

continue to determine what is causing specks in the fuel.

Did you say you had an annual done?  Cleaning the fuel screen in the fuel/water separator is part of the annual.

There are parts of the Mooney fuel system that need to be kept up on...

My 65C had rust specks that were falling into the fuel and would interrupt the seals on all the drain valves. 

Rust specks are tiny black dots that have the ability to collect and block fuel flow in tight spaces.

There is a source of rust in old Mooney tanks. The fuel neck where the cap mounts in was made of mild steel in the early 60's. There are stainless alternatives.

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 21, 2017 by carusoam

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Thanks HRM, Carusoam, skmoore63 mentioned that the specks were coming from the seals from the drains on his bladders.  My plane also has O&N bladders from 2013.  I thnk skmoore63 is right because I can smear the specks between my fingers, kind of like old O-Ring.  I will check logbook again but I don't think it was done.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Thanks HRM, Carusoam, skmoore63 mentioned that the specks were coming from the seals from the drains on his bladders.  My plane also has O&N bladders from 2013.  I thnk skmoore63 is right because I can smear the specks between my fingers, kind of like old O-Ring.  I will check logbook again but I don't think it was done.  

[carusoam]

Whatever it is, find it and make it stop... 

fuel injectors can be sensitive to things that get stuck in them.  There are also some screens between the tank and the fuel injection system...

When stuff gets stuck in a fuel injector, the engine monitor does a pretty good job of alerting what is going on.

Got a JPI or something similar?

Best regards,

-a-

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

I got that channel changer EGT.  Its kind of like an engine monitor!  You turn the dial to the cylinder you want to check.  Honestly, I like the simple analogue stuff the plane has, it has been easy and cheap to fix the few things I have corrected so far.  

Edited June 21, 2017 by Grandmas Flying Couch

[carusoam]

Anyway you can get all four EGTs and CHTs is a good way...

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

I remember seeing your plane on controller.   Glad to see new owners come on MS.  Whenever I would see a plane like yours in an ad, I try to compare to mine to see what it's worth, but I always am thinking there MUST be something unknown, hence useless trying to decern real value...  I'm glad you are bringing the plane up to snuff so there is a better pool of well maintained mooneys in circulation.  

[Yetti]

On 6/20/2017 at 4:07 PM, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Thank you Skmoore63, I hope thats it.  I want to clean fuel strainer at selector valve, is it difficult?  Also what about filter after booster pump?  Maint manual says to do it every 50 hours or something rediculous.  I don't see it done over the last couple of years of logbooks, how often do y'all do this?  

Fuel selector.  Not hard.  There is an SB that changes the Torque value to lower so you don't break it.   Call LASER and order the oring set.  They will know what you need.  There is a fancy Oring with washer for the bottom bolt. Call these people and ask for the thick one of these.   http://www.brownaircraft.com/product-p/gl-30-hd.htm

Might as well get spares while you are getting.

There is a finger strainer on the fuel solenoid that can be accessed from either side.  I pull the fuel line side.

How are your hoses?   Call PHT hoses in Oklahoma and get the upgraded brown ones with integrated fire sleeves.... since you are taking things apart

Order a stainless screw set from Spruce.  Order some nylon washer for the #10 screws

Check these guys https://www.bandbaircraftsupplies.com/bb-online-store

Cleaning the fuel screens is called for in the 100 hour/Annual inspection.

 

[pinerunner]

This doesn't sound too bad though it isn't ideal. The kind of thing a reasonable prebuy had darn well better save you from is being the last owner of a plane that is about to be scrapped because of a corroded wing spar. It sounds like you're getting intimate with all your planes quirks sooner than you would have liked but that you are getting on top of it and with a good A an P on board as well. 

I think anyone getting into buying their first airplane had better have a few thousand tucked away to handle these squawks and develop a good relationship with a mechanic up front.

[SantosDumont]

Within 6 months of buying my 67F the vacuum pump and alternator failed. Thing is 50 years old and I actually perfer knowing that I have brand new parts on it.  The only thing that bothers me about my PPI was that the vacuum tube piping had a giant hole in it that someone 'repaired' with aluminum tape. 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Update:

It has been hot, every day above 110F.  So I have to limit my time in the hanger.  I have a mobile swamp cooler but it only goes so far.  I fixed the Cowl Flap using all new hardware and have now learned some of the AN hardware nomenclature and sizing system so that will be useful.  I also bought the bolt size finder from spruce.  The only thing I do not know what to do about it the left aileron control tube rubbing on the aluminum stiffener.  I checked the right wing and this is not happening as the formica?  guide blocks were keeping it 1/4" above the stiffener.  On the left wing it appears they cut the guide block holes much to generously from the factory.  My guess is that it has been rubbing from the factory.  I checked either end of the tube and there are no adjustments for this, not would it matter as the tube sags under its own weight in the middle hence the need for the blocks in the first place.  The guide blocks are inaccessible to replace without removing skin.  There is no damage to the control tube and a slight curve in the stiffener where the aluminum has been rubbed.  I'm am going to clean the area and lube the contact point with Aeroshell 7 until I can have it looked at.  I believe an anti chaffing channel could be glued to the stiffener and lubed with Aeroshell 7 and call it a day.   

 

Thanks for the help Yetti, I will call Laser and get that screen cleaned.  I didn't know about the strainer in the fuel solenoid.  The hoses are brand new blue ones, to be replaced on condition so I'm leaving those.  I did order a screw set from Spruces since alot of my screws heads were stripped.  Thanks for the different parts sources, saved me some time looking.  

Pinerunner I know alot about the plane and am learning quickly.  This will help me know when a mechanic is trying to rip me off or is screwing up.  No corrosion anywhere really

Hey SantosDumont, I hear you, and that's what I expected.  My issues were not within six month, they were present when I took delivery and the ferry pilot was the person who sold me the plane.  

 

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

This will help me know when a mechanic is trying to rip me off or is screwing up. 

You need to find people to work with that you trust.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

You need to find people to work with that you trust.

AND build a relationship with them, so that they know what you can do, and trust you to do it right yourself. When an A&Plane or IA signs off, they are also signing for your own work . . .

[Godfather]

53 minutes ago, Hank said:

AND build a relationship with them, so that they know what you can do, and trust you to do it right yourself. When an A&Plane or IA signs off, they are also signing for your own work . . .

...and subjecting themselves to future threads about how their ethics or high prices should be avoided. 

I'm sorry but in my opinion the thread title should have been amended a while ago.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Godfather, 

Got pre-buy, asked seller repeatedly about issues, even about wing leveler, was told it worked great plane delivered by seller with 9 or 10 issues, some airworthiness issues.  I know what as-is means, I also know you dont fly a plane 3+ hours to me wothout noting some of the issues.  I'm not being unreasonable here.  I'm saying beware as they either don't go through their planes or withold issues and I thought others should know.  If I had flown the plane at all and the issues came up, I would own them.  I think the title was fair.  Some people purchase from a dealer (and probably pay a premium)  thinking in part this would make a smoother transaction.  I was a novice to the plane world and went to a dealer to avoid these exact issues.  It's an old plane, but these issues didn't develop on day two of ownership!  On the bright side I got my registration yesterday, FAA was waiting for a bill of sale from previous owner to skywagons, so at least that's not grounding me anymore temp reg is expired as its been well over 90 days. I have used 2 mechanics already and haven't had issues yet.  

When you sell something these days without doing your due-diligence you risk exposure on the internet.  As a dealer you should be able to tell prospective buyers about issues with your product, not play a game and hope customer doesn't find it.  

With that in mind, I would not hesitate to call anyone out on bad ethics, I would think that is one of the points of MooneySpace.  

At the end of the day I did think hard about the title before posting it, perhaps I should soften the wording and I don't want to alienate you or anyone else on the board.  

Hank, KLRDMD, I'm working woth an IA who teaches A&P and he is helping alot, I ask him questions over the phone and he charges me for his time, which makes me feel better about calling.  He came out and inspected and signed off on everything after he had me make a few small changes.  

 

[gsxrpilot]

With that in mind, I would not hesitate to call anyone out on bad ethics, I would think that is one of the points of MooneySpace.  

I agree and thanks for posting. I for one, think the title is just fine.  I'd be happy for the Skywagon guys to come on and defend themselves. Otherwise, I'm happy their name is in the title of the thread.

[Godfather]

4 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Godfather, 

Got pre-buy, asked seller repeatedly about issues, even about wing leveler, was told it worked great plane delivered by seller with 9 or 10 issues, some airworthiness issues.  I know what as-is means, I also know you dont fly a plane 3+ hours to me wothout noting some of the issues.

With that in mind, I would not hesitate to call anyone out on bad ethics, I would think that is one of the points of MooneySpace.  

At the end of the day I did think hard about the title before posting it, perhaps I should soften the wording and I don't want to alienate you or anyone else on the board.

I agree but feel that the previous owner and mechanic are the neglectful parties in the majority of your problems.  I guess my only point is the gold standard broker might charge an extra 10k to protect his reputation and deliver a problem free bird.  I think this broker is providing a service to deliver less than perfect planes to another level of buyer. 

[Hank]

Delivering a less than  perfect plane is one thing, but hiding the problems from the buyer is another. I think his beef is that the broker told him, even after flying the plane to him, that everything worked, and he found out on his first flight that there are non-working things, and some airworthiness squawks, too. KnowIg6s that when you negotiate and buy the plane is one thing, finding out afterwards is another . . . And that is all on the broker.

[PTK]

He bought a used as is airplane.

He had a ppi and an annual performed at the local shop when he could've taken it to an MSC.

He accepted the airplane.

He didn't have to accept it and would've received 100% of his deposit back. But he accepted it and completed the sale.

He is irritated to be fixing things when he could be flying.

He can still take it to an MSC and pay them to bring it up to top shape.

But he made certain choices and he needs to also accept the responsibility. 

Is there any sense of personal responsibility left anymore? Or is that expectation not politically correct?!

 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Hey PTK you are invading my safe space,

All correct.  I have taken responsibility throughout the thread and begun to work through all the issues.  I sent an email to Mark at skywagons (along time ago), he said things break (as if I had the plane operating and they broke) I asked him to fix the registration and he did.  I should have taken it to a Mooney service center for pre-buy.  I should have done even more research before buying.  Maybe you guys are right, they didn't know about any of the issues and said "Everything works great" and I was a dumb ass.  I fixed up the thread title.  I wasn't escaping responsibility, ask my wallet, I was pointing out the likeliness that they knew of some of these problems when they said it was all good.  The great news is my next plane will be a vintage Mooney and I know what to look for, I can do a sort of pre-pre-buy.  

ANYHOW, I'm moving on from the buying, I don't want to be like Hillary and Trump stuck in the 2016 elections!  The purchase is over, I own her, she's mostly fixed and now I'm mostly seeking tech help from y'all.    

Edited July 6, 2017 by Grandmas Flying Couch

[Godfather]

14 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Maybe you guys are right, they didn't know about any of the issues and said "Everything works great" and I was a dumb ass.      

No, you paid a minimal amount to have a shop check for the expensive problems and hopefully not be an issue...the rest is just neglected maintenance first year catch-up.  Enjoy your new plane and enjoy the fact the parts you replaced will probably be gtg for the next decade.