Hot start procedure for TSIO-360

[Pascal]

Ok, I have a 252 and have attempted each of the procedures listed above.  None of them worked for me.  I don't have difficulty starting it cold, but I just can't get it to hot start.  I'm really at a loss.  I was convinced Paul's recommendations were going to work:

1. Mixture ICO
2. Throttle closed
3. Low Boost for 30 seconds
4. 3-4 seconds of Prime (I assumed this included throttle full open, mixture full in; maybe that was a mistake?)
5. Throttle back to idle
6. Mixture full in/forward

I was particularly encouraged when he said hot starts are much easier with Continentals than with Lycomings.  Unfortunately, that is not my experience. I tried the hi-boost procedure, no prime, 1/2 to 1 second prime, flooded procedure, normal procedure, nothing seems to work.  I do get a sputter/cough on occasion, but never more than a brief cough.

Any other recommendations?

[kevinw]

3 hours ago, Pascal said:

Ok, I have a 252 and have attempted each of the procedures listed above.  None of them worked for me.  I don't have difficulty starting it cold, but I just can't get it to hot start.  I'm really at a loss.  I was convinced Paul's recommendations were going to work:

1. Mixture ICO
2. Throttle closed
3. Low Boost for 30 seconds
4. 3-4 seconds of Prime (I assumed this included throttle full open, mixture full in; maybe that was a mistake?)
5. Throttle back to idle
6. Mixture full in/forward

I was particularly encouraged when he said hot starts are much easier with Continentals than with Lycomings.  Unfortunately, that is not my experience. I tried the hi-boost procedure, no prime, 1/2 to 1 second prime, flooded procedure, normal procedure, nothing seems to work.  I do get a sputter/cough on occasion, but never more than a brief cough.

Any other recommendations?

Hot starts can be frustrating and it doesn't build a lot of confidence in your passengers either; I've been there. I have a J so my hot start is just like Don's video. One thing that helped me a lot was switching to fine wire plugs. Have you done this or considered it? If all else fails I would fly to a shop or to a fellow K pilot and have him demonstrate it to you. Facetime is another option as well. Perhaps there's an issue and it's not your procedure. Good luck, hope you figure it out.

[milotron]

7 hours ago, Pascal said:

Ok, I have a 252 and have attempted each of the procedures listed above.  None of them worked for me.  I don't have difficulty starting it cold, but I just can't get it to hot start.  I'm really at a loss.  I was convinced Paul's recommendations were going to work:

1. Mixture ICO
2. Throttle closed
3. Low Boost for 30 seconds
4. 3-4 seconds of Prime (I assumed this included throttle full open, mixture full in; maybe that was a mistake?)
5. Throttle back to idle
6. Mixture full in/forward

I was particularly encouraged when he said hot starts are much easier with Continentals than with Lycomings.  Unfortunately, that is not my experience. I tried the hi-boost procedure, no prime, 1/2 to 1 second prime, flooded procedure, normal procedure, nothing seems to work.  I do get a sputter/cough on occasion, but never more than a brief cough.

Any other recommendations?

My cold and hot is as follows for my 262 conversion:

Cold:

1. mixture full rich

2. Throttle at 1000rpm idle ( where I left it at shut down )

3. Prime for 3-10 seconds per chart in POH.

4. Crank engine, a couple of shots of prime.

5. When stale, lean to past peak rpm.

 

Hot:

1. At shut down, do NOT pull to lean cut off; just cut mags. Fine for fuel stops.

2. Leave everything where it was at shutdown.

3. Crank engine. Should start right away with a couple of shots of prime if it stumbles.

4. If this fails mixture at idle cutoff, throttle closed, run boost pump until tone changes ( purge vapour/hot fuel back to tank )

5. Use Cold start procedure.

[231MJ]

The hot start procedures kortopates spelled out above keep working for me.  The initial firing is a little rough (like only 2-3 cylinders are firing) but hitting the primer and a little more throttle gets it all running smoothly.

Thanks again to all for the suggestions - this has been a big problem for me in the past and now problem solved!

[kortopates]

10 hours ago, Pascal said:

Ok, I have a 252 and have attempted each of the procedures listed above.  None of them worked for me.  I don't have difficulty starting it cold, but I just can't get it to hot start.  I'm really at a loss.  I was convinced Paul's recommendations were going to work:

1. Mixture ICO
2. Throttle closed
3. Low Boost for 30 seconds
4. 3-4 seconds of Prime (I assumed this included throttle full open, mixture full in; maybe that was a mistake?)
5. Throttle back to idle
6. Mixture full in/forward

I was particularly encouraged when he said hot starts are much easier with Continentals than with Lycomings.  Unfortunately, that is not my experience. I tried the hi-boost procedure, no prime, 1/2 to 1 second prime, flooded procedure, normal procedure, nothing seems to work.  I do get a sputter/cough on occasion, but never more than a brief cough.

Any other recommendations?

Something seems wrong if that doesn't work. What kind of magnetos do you have and are you upto date on your 500hr 5 yr IRAN inspection? I am wondering about impulse coupling? 

Yes, 3-4 sec prime requires mixture full rich and throttle open.

Edited July 12, 2017 by kortopates

[KLRDMD]

10 hours ago, Pascal said:

Ok, I have a 252 and have attempted each of the procedures listed above.  None of them worked for me.  I don't have difficulty starting it cold, but I just can't get it to hot start.  I'm really at a loss.  I was convinced Paul's recommendations were going to work:

1. Mixture ICO
2. Throttle closed
3. Low Boost for 30 seconds
4. 3-4 seconds of Prime (I assumed this included throttle full open, mixture full in; maybe that was a mistake?)
5. Throttle back to idle
6. Mixture full in/forward

I was particularly encouraged when he said hot starts are much easier with Continentals than with Lycomings.  Unfortunately, that is not my experience. I tried the hi-boost procedure, no prime, 1/2 to 1 second prime, flooded procedure, normal procedure, nothing seems to work.  I do get a sputter/cough on occasion, but never more than a brief cough.

Any other recommendations?

Not all TSIO-360s start the same when hot. Mine and most I've flown work well with treating it like a cold start with extra prime and a few more blades before it catches. I've done transition training into a 252 for two partners recently and that procedure does not work in that airplane. What does work is similar to the quoted part above but a bit different.

1. Mixture ICO

2. Throttle full

3. Low boost for at least 60 seconds

4. Five seconds of prime (with throttle full open, mixture full in)

5. Throttle 1/3

6. Mixture ICO

Engage starter and slowly increase mixture as the engine catches. Be ready to hit the prime as needed.

[gsxrpilot]

My 252 hot start is the same as cold start with a few more seconds of prime.

[Pascal]

I haven't attempted a full 60 seconds of boost, throttle at ⅓, mixture ICO yet.  Certainly worth a try.

Can't recall when the MAGs were serviced, and I don't have the Log books with me at the moment.  I'll check that soon enough.  

That's my next effort; test the MAGs. Don't have the fine wire plugs, but I think it would be better to validate MAG status first.

Will update as things progress.  Many thanks for the inputs!

[carusoam]

Things that help...

Know how your fuel system is built...

1) with the Continental IO550

2) Throttle position effects the amount of fuel flowing during the priming activity.

3) Mixture at ICO sends the fuel somewhere other than the engine.

4) in the O, Cooling the fuel system requires sending fuel Back to the tank it came from.

5) Consistency really helps. Full throttle and mixture ICO sends a lot of fuel back to the tank when the hi boost is used.  Check the POH to see if hi or low boost (or both) is recomended...

6) When priming, full throttle and hi boost sends a lot of fuel to the engine.

7) Full throttle and hi boost is my idea of consistency.  This way the only variable is time... one Mississippi....Six Mississippi...

8) expect one error to happen.  Full throttle, and mixture full in for priming... can lead to an interesting start procedure...

9) hand on the throttle, feet on the brakes, always...

10) The other detail is what is considered a hot engine?  Most starts for the IO550 are not very hot.  The subtle hint would be the sound of fuel boiling in the injection system right after shut down...  After a small amount of time, this situation abates....

11) hearing fuel boiling?   fuel system cooling experiment:...  full throttle, mixture ICO, boost pump on (POH for time)... warm fuel and vapor is being sent back to the tank.  When you are done, listen for sound of fuel boiling again...

12) The last oddity that can't be covered... is the fuel line forward of the mixture valve.  Expect some vapor and fuel mixed up in there, that can't be sent back to the tank. This is the big reason why the start is still a bit funky at first....

PP thoughts only, not an engine guru.  I think I learned this all from David at AAA.  Let me know if I missed something....

Best regard,

-a-

 

[Marcopolo]

 

On 7/12/2017 at 8:21 AM, Pascal said:

• Mixture ICO
• Throttle closed
• Low Boost for 30 seconds
• 3-4 seconds of Prime (I assumed this included throttle full open, mixture full in; maybe that was a mistake?)
• Throttle back to idle
• Mixture full in/forward

  Looking at the OP's procedure and reading what folks are doing has me wondering about my own process.  I run the boost pump (low) for 10-15 seconds with the throttle full closed and mixture full rich (TSIO-360-GB) then a few seconds with the throttle open 1/2".  Then pull the mixture to ICO and then with throttle open 1/2" or so and work the mixture in while cranking.  Starts every time as the mixture reaches a certain point.  It does stumble every now and then so as soon as it starts to catch, my key hand moves to the prime switch to catch the stumble.  No issues using this method.  My question based on reading the above responses is what throttle / mixture positions move the fuel back to the tank as opposed to into the cylinders?

  I don't think the OP is moving any fuel during his process if the mixture is at ICO and the throttle is closed.  The prime circuit will not move cooler fuel into the injector lines which is a must before attempting to start these types of engines.

 

Ron

[gsxrpilot]

The only time I've ever used either Low or High Boost in my 252, is after running a tank dry at altitude. Starting, either hot or cold I only use Prime.

[jlunseth]

On that 60 second boost method, I wouldn't.  As I have said above, it is the one way I can get a backfire out of my engine.  Also, I tried it one day, eventually got the engine started, and a couple of passing pilots who were friends caught me after the flight and said that fuel was dripping out of the cowlingn when I was running the high boost pump.  That gets your attention.  Now, maybe it was an issue with my particular engine.  But I have gotten the backfire effect more than once by using high boost for too long.  That is the Pelican Perch method, and it may work for big bore Contis, but I don't use it in my TSIO360.  I use the high boost to fill the lines before starting, and I run it just until the fuel pressure stabilizes at a number.  Doesn't matter what the number is.  If you don't have a fuel pressure readout, then 10-15 seconds of high boost before engaging the starter.

The 1-2 seconds of prime doesn't make sense to me either.  The problem with a hot start is that the heat has boiled the fuel in the lines and evaporated everything in the induction system.  1-2 seconds of prime is nothing, when there is not any fuel there to begin with.  6 seconds minimum on the prime, before engaging the starter.   

[kmyfm20s]

On 4/12/2017 at 5:36 PM, M20Doc said:

Fuel, air, sparks and a good battery. A properly set up fuel system with clean nozzles, clean healthy spark plugs and well maintained magnetos, a healthy battery and starter are all important first steps.

Clarence

I'll add brush and floss daily and a professional cleaning twice a year!

[jackn]

My hot start procedure is much simpler. Mixture full cut off, throttle cracked, turn key, when engine fires(should be right away), advance mixture. If it stumbles, then I give a shot of primer. I've never had a problem. 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

I'll add brush and floss daily and a professional cleaning twice a year!

If you think it will help, I'm all for it.

Clarence

[N231BN]

On that 60 second boost method, I wouldn't.  As I have said above, it is the one way I can get a backfire out of my engine.  Also, I tried it one day, eventually got the engine started, and a couple of passing pilots who were friends caught me after the flight and said that fuel was dripping out of the cowlingn when I was running the high boost pump.  That gets your attention.  Now, maybe it was an issue with my particular engine.  But I have gotten the backfire effect more than once by using high boost for too long.  That is the Pelican Perch method, and it may work for big bore Contis, but I don't use it in my TSIO360.  I use the high boost to fill the lines before starting, and I run it just until the fuel pressure stabilizes at a number.  Doesn't matter what the number is.  If you don't have a fuel pressure readout, then 10-15 seconds of high boost before engaging the starter.

The 1-2 seconds of prime doesn't make sense to me either.  The problem with a hot start is that the heat has boiled the fuel in the lines and evaporated everything in the induction system.  1-2 seconds of prime is nothing, when there is not any fuel there to begin with.  6 seconds minimum on the prime, before engaging the starter.   

This is because certain fuel pumps for TSIO-360 engines actually permit fuel to flow when in ICO using the electric pump. This is an issue I just learned about after having an exchange done on a leaky pump. I'm going to call the fuel shop back but I remember him saying they have to convert the old pumps with a new mixture control.

 

 

 

 

[Pascal]

Update.  Took the MAGs in.  Original MAGs (manufactured in 1986).  Doesn't appear they have ever been serviced.  Coils were bad; points shot; other components were bad too.  Paul was right.  Will get them reinstalled later today.  Should have a significant impact on cold and hot starts!

More costly than I hoped for, but not when you consider the alternative.

Thanks again to all for the recommendations.

[kortopates]

On 7/13/2017 at 6:41 PM, N231BN said:

This is because certain fuel pumps for TSIO-360 engines actually permit fuel to flow when in ICO using the electric pump. This is an issue I just learned about after having an exchange done on a leaky pump. I'm going to call the fuel shop back but I remember him saying they have to convert the old pumps with a new mixture control.

 

 

 

 

This is very true, I just don't know how many pumps are set up this way. But its true for the 649368-75A1 used on my Encore conversion for the -SB and frankly I didn't think their were any models on the older -LB and -MB that did this but I just don't know for sure except it would have to be an updated pump -not the original. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by kortopates

[jetdriven]

I thought all Continental fuel injection systems were continuous flow.  Which means a return line to the tank. Running the pump at idle cutoff circulated the fuel all the way through the circuit so when you go to start it it's nice cool fuel, no vapor lock. 

Running the boost pump during cranking on a Lycoming helps with the vapor lock in some instances. 

[N231BN]

I thought that as well until I got this pump. If you screw the mixture in so it's just off the ICO stop it quits injecting fuel and sends it back to the tank.

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I thought all Continental fuel injection systems were continuous flow.  Which means a return line to the tank. Running the pump at idle cutoff circulated the fuel all the way through the circuit so when you go to start it it's nice cool fuel, no vapor lock. 

Running the boost pump during cranking on a Lycoming helps with the vapor lock in some instances. 

 

1 hour ago, N231BN said:

I thought that as well until I got this pump. If you screw the mixture in so it's just off the ICO stop it quits injecting fuel and sends it back to the tank.

They are all still continuous flow and they all have a return line to tank. The differences is that new pump designs have a additional internal galley that now allows fuel to go the FCU through this new galley even at idle cutoff when the pump pressure exceeds 4 psi. The old style didn't allow any fuel, even at high boost pump pressure to get to the FCU; it all went out the return line to the tank - but no longer. Supposedly this new design is suppose to reduce vapor lock because the old design created vacuum in the line after the fuel started to cool back down with mixture at ICO and the new design is to vent that off and make hot starts easier without using the pump at ICO to recirculate fuel.  

Obviously running the pump at low boost pressures is going to reduce the amount of leakage at ICO to FCU as compared to using high boost. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by kortopates

[jlunseth]

I can't speak to why it happens, that is, why fuel comes out of the system if you run the high boost too long.  It may be coming out of the induction system because fuel is getting through and there is too much, it may be coming out of the pump, I don't know.  All I can speak to is that it does.  I am just trying to get across that the Pelican Perch technique for Contis, of running the high boost for a full minute to use fuel to cool the fuel system down, is a bad idea in the 231, and probably the 252.  Dripping fuel and a backfire is a good way to burn your aircraft to the tarmac, so just don't.  Running the high boost just enough to fill the lines works well though.  

The biggest problem with starts in the TSIO360LB is just lack of consistent fuel flow.  The engine catches briefly and then dies because it is not getting fuel, the pilot repeats what he just did with the same result, or tries various settings of the mixture and MP knobs, again to the same effect.  Just touching the top of the high boost switch when the engine sounds like it is dying will supply constant fuel flow and allow the engine to continue to run.  That works under all circumstances, high alt. or low, high temp or low, down to about 20F.   If you know that, it is a really easy engine to start.

[Bryan1016]

I have 262 as well.  Live in Alabama, lots of hot starts.  After flooding a cpl tImes, here's what I now do. 

Bump boost for one or two seconds, then start cranking.  After a blade or two, hold down boost and continue to crank.  Be prepared to give a little more boost after she fires.