United Incident

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

-Dentists suffer psycho-neurotic disorders at a rate of 2 1/2 times greater than physicians.
-Emotional illness ranks third in order of frequency of health problems amongst dentists, while in the general population it ranks tenth.
-The suicide rate of dentists is more than twice the rate of the general population and almost three times higher than that of other white collar workers.
-One study summarized in the Journal of the American Dental Association examined more than 3,500 dentists. Thirty-eight percent reported feeling worried or anxious constantly or frequently. In the same study, 34% of respondents said they always or frequently felt physically or emotionally exhausted,

Interesting!

[Mcstealth]

On April 10, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Tommy said:

I do sincerely apologise. I will retract now I know he is merely trying to be a good United employee.

Same goes for back handed compliments....... Not good. 

[Mcstealth]

On April 10, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Tommy said:

So can a car salesperson "double sell" a car to you and to another bidder? Then told you that the car was sold to another customer when you turn up to pick up the key?

 

 

Sir. See Mr Don's post below. It answers you question.

 

 

Posted yesterday at 11:21 AM · Report post

This situation has to be analyzed in steps. If you want to be mad at United for overbooking; go right ahead. If you want to be mad at them for having a system that allows someone to get on a plane before it is determined that he should be on it; go ahead. If those don't upset you, then you look at someone who is on a plane that must be asked to get off. If he decides to refuse, what do you think the airline is supposed to do? They could acquiesce, make someone else get off and take off, or they can use force and remove him from the plane. 

Be upset for the right reason.

 

[Mcstealth]

On April 10, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Tommy said:

Read again:

 

If you are denied boarding due to an overbooking of our flight for which you have a valid Ticket and a confirmed reservation, and you have met our Check-In Deadline and complied with all applicable requirements for travel as set out in these Conditions of Carriage, we will offer you a seat on the next available flight on our services. If this is not acceptable to you, we will provide compensation and any care required by any law which may apply or in accordance with our policy if there is no applicable law. 

And just because the condition of carriage allows it, doesn't mean Qantas will because the competition is fierce. 

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/student-takes-on-airline-and-wins/news-story/054c05bec92f18ec5822ee4d79b07ed4

 

Aaaaaaand nowhere does it say you don't have to comply with th police demands  

good try Tommy, but try again if you wish..

 

[Mcstealth]

On April 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Tom said:

I suspect that this will play out, like so many things in history, where a single person said "no" for the right reason (if if technically inappropriate) and millions will benefit from it. 

Meanwhile so many others, including people who will directly benefit from his actions, will be critical of him...

This was the funniest quote so far. Made me laugh out loud. 

This person is no Rosa Parks.

[Hector]

I see this a little differently. Unfortunate what transpired but it could have all been avoided if that pax had followed instructions. Once we get passed the dramatization with the guy being dragged out in the video we realize that United did not do anything wrong. They simply enforced the rules. He could have gotten up and walked out on his own. He should have abided just as the other three did. We don't know what the conversation exchange was and if this guy was being a smart ass. The airline has bigger fish to fry than be concerned with a difficult pax. They should fine him for all the trouble he caused them frankly. And as far as overbooking it's just the way it is with bargain basement ticket prices. They have to cover themselves for no shows and maximize the number of paying bodies in the seats. 

 

 

Peter I don't disagree the passenger should have cooperated. I doubt many of us would have refused to vacate and allow a cop to drag us out kicking and screaming. The airline was plain stupid in not realizing the PR nightmare this would lead to, not to mention the multiple law suits, and potential fines still to come. There was no bigger fish to fry than to keep this from happening and they failed miserably. They could have resolved this 100 different ways but opted for the worst possible choice. There are times when a passenger must be removed because he is clearly a danger to others. This is not the case here and the use of force was completely unnecessary

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mcstealth]

17 hours ago, Tommy said:

I don't even know where to begin...

Are you for real, Peter? Or you are just being satirical (aka. smart ass)?

Have you heard of the saying "Let's agree to disagree" ? 

Not everyone must agree with you, even though you are expending massive amount of windage (blowhard) energy in trying to do just that.

I do not agree with your stance.

you don't have to agree with mine. 

I am not saying I am inflexible, but you certainly are making a case of your inflexibility. 

 

[Mcstealth]

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

And with the same reasoning and logics as yours, wouldn't Jews be considered interfering with German Third Reich and Jews had no rights but to abide since they were living in Germany? And the minute they started arguing, they should be all rounded up and put in the camp?

Just like you said, they needed to follow the rules. Right?

 

And here is another post that made me laugh out loud.

 

[Marauder]

Finally .. lol ..j/k

It won't stick. Especially when he finds out I bought a Flightstream 510.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Mcstealth]

9 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

This is NOT complicated.  I feel badly for the passengers plight, but this comes down to an evolving progression of war against structured society and the rule of law vs. I am FREE to do what I want when I want.

I really do NOT like being a passenger on commercial aviation.  It is NOT the airlines, in general that I don't care for.  It is the other passengers actions.

If everyone could be a little bit more "Japanese" in their public demeanor the world and commercial aviation would be a better place.

OMG

is this me agreeing with Nobody?

i am not saying everyone is to be a mindless drone, but the way I was raised certainly did not allow for me to be like wha you see on the news today. 

It is pathetic  

 

[Mcstealth]

6 hours ago, Tom said:

I don't agree.  Quite the opposite.  Let's turn to Stanley Milgram.  Milgram's research was motivated by trying to understand how Germans committed or at least supported atrocities against the Jews.  Milgram taught us that 2/3 of people will, for whatever combination of reasons, side with authority, even if doing so will cause their fellow man suffer.  Just like the Germans. 

In this case we have a man who, by all accounts, legally bought a plane ticket, boarded the plane, wasn't doing anything wrong, then was singled out against his will to get off the plane so that another passenger could take his spot.  No humanitarian crisis, no extra-ordinary accommodation attempted by the airline.  Yet he was manhandled.

If watching the video doesn't raise you're hackles then I'd say that you don't understand the Holocaust. 

 

And agin I laugh out loud

[Mcstealth]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

I was raised to respect authority as well.  In the Marines I was taught to question orders that didn't seem legitimate or correct and to stand up for people who couldn't protect themselves. 

Oh for goodness sake....Binky time already.  Wow.  That was quick.  You mean insult like calling an old man prepubescent and an idiot?

And again with the insults? Was that parent or Marine taught?

[AndyFromCB]

Best thing that could happen to US airlines would be to allow foreign carriers to fly domestic. I have flown a US based carrier internationally once during last 10 years or so and it was a nightmare. I'll take Aeroflot and two drunk Russians behind the yokes over United or Delta. But I'd rather fly Lufthansa here in US. 

I don't see that happening anytime soon as the current administration just handed the US airlines more monopoly powers because of the laptop ban that makes zero sense as US airlines departing from same airports allow laptops onboard. For that alone, I could not care less if United/Delta go Tango Uniform, I actually hope they do.

Edited April 12, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[Tommy]

8 hours ago, PTK said:

You are trivializing the Holocaust by making such a reference. Your attempt to describe something totally unrelated to it and trivializing it in such a way is nothing short of pathetic.

Sir, I am truly speechless.

Trivialising?? Are you serious? I have spoken to my mentor who survived the holocaust. He told me that the whole incident on the plane is a reminiscent of the early stage of Nazi Germany where the Third Reich was both authoritarian and violent and the society at that time was indifferent and apathetic at its best, supportive at its worst. It all started when a society is happy to see how the rules are bent and applied to deliberately causing reactions from the innocents to justified further bullying and sanctions.

Pays to remind you that this passenger did not break any laws to start with yet the cops were called in...

Is that truly a difficult concept for you to grasp?

 

[aviatoreb]

I say this thread goes 50 pages before it spins so ugly it gets closed.

[Tommy]

10 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Did you mean assure?  United did not "beat up" anyone.  O'Hare Airport authorities removed a passenger that was selected by a random electronic process for removal by established protocols.

Not blaming the victim Tommy, but his actions precipitated the result.  Your example is flawed.  We have been down this road before.  Just clarifying the words you used to describe my statement that are NOT accurate.

There was a course that the passenger could have taken to achieve "satisfaction".  He chose a different course.  He does NOT want me on his jury.

Have a nice tomorrow.

Er... Nobody, what you said is precisely what victim blaming is. Someone's perfectly legal action precipitated the result. A young girl wearing revealing dress is not illegal but when you said her dress and demeanor "precipitated" the harassment. That's victim blaming.

And not only you are blaming the victim, your first statement about airport security is a shifting the blame.

So basically it boils down to this, United is in the right everyone else is in the wrong. 

 

Well... two apologies now from CEO, $600 million lost in cap, millions of people vowing to boycott United around the globe.

I don't know, Nobody. What's the matter with all these people??? 

 

[Mooneymite]

47 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

Best thing that could happen to US airlines would be to allow foreign carriers to fly domestic.

Are you advocating Cabotage?

This is what happened to the US maritime industry.  The vast majority of shipping is crewed by non-US citizens.

Have you taken a cruise lately?  Did you notice that the crew was not US based?  Nor are the ships.

Once that gate is opened, the horse is gone forever.  US citizens can't live on the wages paid.  Jobs gone.....

Norwegian Air is presently trying to enter the US market under the "flag of convenience" banner.

 

[salty]

I've been on the fence about this situation reading all the comments. I finally came to the conclusion that the passenger was the one in the wrong. It seems very unfair, but the aircraft is owned by United. They have a right to expect him to leave when asked. 

[Andy95W]

Ultimately, I agree, but the list of things that United (and other US carriers, and the law enforcement officers) could, should, and ought to have done differently is long and extensive.

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

Are you advocating Cabotage?

This is what happened to the US maritime industry.  The vast majority of shipping is crewed by non-US citizens.

Have you taken a cruise lately?  Did you notice that the crew was not US based?  Nor are the ships.

Once that gate is opened, the horse is gone forever.  US citizens can't live on the wages paid.  Jobs gone.....

Norwegian Air is presently trying to enter the US market under the "flag of convenience" banner.

 

Are you advocating isolationist protectionism?

Many countries have opened their domestic market for competition from foreign carriers with terrible and dreadful consequences.

Case and point, in Australia, one iconic airline went Tango Uniform! Sure, gross mismanagement also played a role but it's the bloody foreigners! Two foreign owned and one new local budget carriers were created. It brings more jobs, more routes, cheaper fare, and much better services because of...what's that bloody C word? Oh, that's right. Competition. Outrageous! 

As a matter of fact, I am so enraged right now that my secretary is booking my $40USD flight to Sydney (1 and half hour duration). It's cheaper than my taxi fare to the airport. Can you believe that? All those money that I have saved didn't go to CEO Alan Joyce's pocket but instead will be spent on something else instead (like a succulent lobster meal tonight at the top Sydney restaurant that hires local chefs and waiters). Absolutely ridiculous and disgusting!

 

[Tommy]

53 minutes ago, salty said:

I've been on the fence about this situation reading all the comments. I finally came to the conclusion that the passenger was the one in the wrong. It seems very unfair, but the aircraft is owned by United. They have a right to expect him to leave when asked. 

Two apologies from CEO, $600 million lost in cap. Millions of people boycotting United. 

Yes the passenger was the one in the wrong... 

I am expecting Dr. David Dao's apology any time soon now...

[NotarPilot]

On 4/10/2017 at 9:26 AM, Tommy said:

How about up the offer to say 2k or more until there is a taker? 

And I see how you conveniently left out the "beating the crap out" part...

 

I saw them drag him off the plane. I didn't see video of him being beaten up. Sure, he was bloody but that could have resulted on a number of other injuries not caused by a "beating." That being said, I think it could have been handled better and I think policies should be in place to prevent this from happening in the future. 

My how flying has changed over the years.

[carusoam]

Summary...ish.

 

1) The individual throwing passengers out of a blimp... - HF (over a garbage container, not an airliner this time)

2) Sean Spicer today is apologizing for misusing Hitler/Holocaust to describe Bashar Assad...

3) Mr. Spicer has demonstrated that being right doesn't mean it is OK to be insensitive.

4) I didn't have sound for this thread, but it appeared the lady occupying two seats was about to start singing. (A sign that the opera is about to come to an end)

5) It would be nice if we had more facts to this story on which to make judgement.  

6) It would be really interesting if the wounded passenger had a painted history.

7) USA Today will probably have it covered to the level they cover airplane incidences.

8) Early on in this thread there was a discussion regarding what else to keep in mind while looking for the bigger picture.  

9) Is there going to be  another shoe that drops...?

10) did this thread just run out of steam.

Back to reading the rest of the MS threads. Can't spend much time here...  

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

We're pilots, we understand math and science. Here are some actual numbers. Since 1995, United has bumped 4.3 passengers per 100,000 passengers flown. Southwest is actually much worse at 9.9 passengers bumped per 100,000 flown.  Anecdotal experience says that the majority of passengers, based on the rush to the podium to sign up, actually appreciate the travel voucher or compensation, for being bumped. But even so that is a minuscule percentage.  

[Hank]

Paul, it's a miniscule percentage, about the same as the fatality rate in GA . . . But sometimes it matters to those involuntarily bumped. I've yet to ride in Business Class, work won't pay for it and neither will I, but I've been bumped more than once and may have 100,000 miles as cross all airlines foreign and domestic, maybe even 120,000.

But at least now I've learned to ask for compensation beyond the usual, "we'll put you on another flight later today" when my paid-for seat already has someone in it. And thanks to Gus, I now know to ask for proper DBC based on how many hours late they get me there. Won't help with missed business meetings, but will make me feel better about not getting home on time. And yes, I've made those trips where arriving 3 hours late means it's over and I don't need to leave the airport at the destination. 

And for the United suporters, the gate attendant to is not "flight crew," and not leaving your bought and paid for seat is not "interfering with flight crew." Also, these goons weren't the police, they were Airport Security (despite having POLICE on the back of their jackets).

So remember, tell them you will get off without being beat up first if they give you the proper, legal DBC. Or pay double, triple or more to ride up front in the big seats . . . . They don't seem to get bumped . . . .