IMC Mooney Flying - what's safe?

[M20F]

9 hours ago, PMcClure said:

When I was 18, I tried to get a loan on a bike like this. To get a loan, I had to get insurance, which cost $50 more than the bike (annual rate). I was shocked and asked the insurance agent for more details. He said the statistics for that bike with my age and experience suggested a 6 month life of me or the bike. So the $50 was a processing fee. I opted for another, cheaper and slower bike. 

My family insurance guy laughed and sent me to American Family who wrote the policy.  Laid it down once for $2k and stolen for I want to say $6k.  Your insurance company was much wise ;-)

[glafaille]

There are many different sorts of minimums.  The minimums that apply to your aircraft's installed equipment, minimums that you think are safe, sane and prudent and minimums that apply to your abilities and currency.  There are of course many more such as FAA minimums.

In my case as a professional pilot, I consider my personal abilities to exceed the capabilities of my airplane's configuration (single engine).  Therefore I impose higher minimums to insure what I think are safe, sane and prudent operations in my particular aircraft.  Certainly the aircraft and equipment is capable of 200-1/2 approaches, but my personal safety margin is too thin for intentional operation in such conditions.  So I increase my baseline minimums/margin.  My safety margin and minimums are fluid and increase as threats present themselves.

In over 40 years of flying, and over 15,000 flight hours including over 6500 at night, I've learned to be flexible, trust nothing, adjust the safety margins as conditions change, and ALWAYS leave yourself an "out".

Personally speaking, flying 200-1/2 approaches in a single engine airplane leaves me without an "out" in the event the engine fails.  Remember, an engine can fail for MANY different reasons, not all of them related to the engine itself.

Perhaps we should list all the things that could cause a perfectly good engine to fail or produce insufficient power to continue flight.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, glafaille said:

There are many different sorts of minimums.  The minimums that apply to your aircraft's installed equipment, minimums that you think are safe, sane and prudent and minimums that apply to your abilities and currency.  There are of course many more such as FAA minimums.

In my case as a professional pilot, I consider my personal abilities to exceed the capabilities of my airplane's configuration (single engine).  Therefore I impose higher minimums to insure what I think are safe, sane and prudent operations in my particular aircraft.  Certainly the aircraft and equipment is capable of 200-1/2 approaches, but my personal safety margin is too thin for intentional operation in such conditions.  So I increase my baseline minimums/margin.  My safety margin and minimums are fluid and increase as threats present themselves.

In over 40 years of flying, and over 15,000 flight hours including over 6500 at night, I've learned to be flexible, trust nothing, adjust the safety margins as conditions change, and ALWAYS leave yourself an "out".

My takeaway is: trust nothing and always leave yourself an out.

[glafaille]

Exactly!

[whiskytango]

On June 23, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Bob_Belville said:

I have departed in literally zero/zero, could not see the sides of the 150' runway, flew the DG way before GPS and SV.

More recently going to TX last month we departed a couple of times into morning 300' ceilings. I do not have a hard limit, not all ceilings are the same. And it depends somewhat upon how comfortable you are multi tasking, cleaning up the plane in IMC. 

I have departed in zero/zero too, and it requires precise control of airspeed, heading, roll and pitch using the basic steam gages.  As an instructor once told me, immediate loss of control can occur if the pilot is not fully "warmed up" at the very start of instrument flight into low/ no ceiling and visibility.  I would not try this if it had been a week or two since flying hard IFR.  I don't use an autopilot in the zero/zero climb out- this is not the time to find out that there is a problem with the autopilot.  The folks in the Tower, who have never seen me since I called Ground Control for the taxi out, will ask where I am (probably out of a sense of self preservation) during the climb out.

[Marauder]

On June 23, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Bob_Belville said: I have departed in literally zero/zero, could not see the sides of the 150' runway, flew the DG way before GPS and SV.

More recently going to TX last month we departed a couple of times into morning 300' ceilings. I do not have a hard limit, not all ceilings are the same. And it depends somewhat upon how comfortable you are multi tasking, cleaning up the plane in IMC. 

I have departed in zero/zero too, and it requires precise control of airspeed, heading, roll and pitch using the basic steam gages.  As an instructor once told me, immediate loss of control can occur if the pilot is not fully "warmed up" at the very start of instrument flight into low/ no ceiling and visibility.  I would not try this if it had been a week or two since flying hard IFR.  I don't use an autopilot in the zero/zero climb out- this is not the time to find out that there is a problem with the autopilot.  The folks in the Tower, who have never seen me since I called Ground Control for the taxi out, will ask where I am (probably out of a sense of self preservation) during the climb out.

Your post got me wondering how many people are doing their autopilot pre-flight check when they expect to need it. My STEC has a pretty extensive "prior to flight" checklist. When I know I am expecting to need it on a flight, I will go through the complete check. On VFR days, I typically don't. In the 18 years I have owned it, I never have seen it fail a check.

Do others check out their autopilot prior to flight?

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[flyboy0681]

Just now, Marauder said:

Your post got me wondering how many people are doing their autopilot pre-flight check when they expect to need it. My STEC has a pretty extensive "prior to flight" checklist. When I know I am expecting to need it on a flight, I will go through the complete check. On VFR days, I typically don't. In the 18 years I have owned it, I never have seen it fail a check.

Do others check out their autopilot prior to flight?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have a KAP 150. As far as I know, the ground check is performed by pressing of the self-test button at which time the unit checks the circuitry and various input units such as the AI, servos, yoke switch, trim system, et al. 

The system can be very temperamental but is a great performer. 

 

[Marauder]

Just now, Marauder said: Your post got me wondering how many people are doing their autopilot pre-flight check when they expect to need it. My STEC has a pretty extensive "prior to flight" checklist. When I know I am expecting to need it on a flight, I will go through the complete check. On VFR days, I typically don't. In the 18 years I have owned it, I never have seen it fail a check.

Do others check out their autopilot prior to flight?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have a KAP 150. As far as I know, the ground check is performed by pressing of the self-test button at which time the unit checks the circuitry and various input units such as the AI, servos, yoke switch, trim system, et al. 

The system can be very temperamental but is a great performer. 

 

Interesting. Mine actually requires you to engage it and verify correct movement and amount of resistance to overcome.

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[midlifeflyer]

2 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I have a KAP 150. As far as I know, the ground check is performed by pressing of the self-test button at which time the unit checks the circuitry and various input units such as the AI, servos, yoke switch, trim system, et al. 

The system can be very temperamental but is a great performer. 

 

The test button is a system operation check. The check @Marauder is talking about is an operational check to visually see that, for example, when you turn the heading bug in HDG mode, the yoke turns accordingly, and, most important, that you can overcome the autopilot in the case of a runaway autopilot or runaway trim. It should be described in the Normal Operations section of your POH Supplement for the autopilot and, IMO performed whether it is there or not (although like many others, I don't usually bother when VFR)

[midlifeflyer]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Interesting. Mine actually requires you to engage it and verify correct movement and amount of resistance to overcome.

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I'm betting his does too. I've seen that check in all the KAP 150 POH Supplements I've come across, from Piper Archers to Mooney Ovations.

Edit: here's the one for the M20M, R and S models from Mooney.com http://www.mooney.com/en/pdf/KFC_150.pdf 

[flyboy0681]

6 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I'm betting his does too. I've seen that check in all the KAP 150 POH Supplements I've come across, from Piper Archers to Mooney Ovations.

Edit: here's the one for the M20M, R and S models from Mooney.com http://www.mooney.com/en/pdf/KFC_150.pdf 

I will definitely go through the supplement.

[midlifeflyer]

4 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I will definitely go through the supplement.

Just an observation not targeted at you, especially since I'm as bad as anyone else about it: I'm convinced the POH Supplements are among the least read items in the POH. (Makes for a great trick question on a FR or IPC )

[1964-M20E]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Your post got me wondering how many people are doing their autopilot pre-flight check when they expect to need it. My STEC has a pretty extensive "prior to flight" checklist. When I know I am expecting to need it on a flight, I will go through the complete check. On VFR days, I typically don't. In the 18 years I have owned it, I never have seen it fail a check.

Do others check out their autopilot prior to flight?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I do.

I have the STEC 30 and I the autopilot check because it is on the check list and to make sure it is working properly before take off either VFR or IFR.  Have I read the full procedure from STEC?  I can honesty answer no.  But I do check and verify each mode (ST,LO,HI and ALT hold) for proper operation and also do a manual override when the AP is engaged.

[ArtVandelay]

Your post got me wondering how many people are doing their autopilot pre-flight check when they expect to need it. My STEC has a pretty extensive "prior to flight" checklist. When I know I am expecting to need it on a flight, I will go through the complete check. On VFR days, I typically don't. In the 18 years I have owned it, I never have seen it fail a check.

Do others check out their autopilot prior to flight?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I do the test, for what's it's worth. IIRC if you pull the CB for the turn coordinator which it uses, it still passes the self test, but it will ignore any attempt to engage the autopilot.

I normally pull the TC CB when playing on the ground so not to put more wear and tear on the TC.

[Deb]

The STEC 55X manual has a 60 step pre-flight test procedure... 

We perform the pre-flight test procedure regularly, and certainly before any flight on which we might encounter IMC or on any long distance flight on which we expect to use the autopilot.

Randy Herren who's now retired from Autopilots Central posted the following two posts on Beechtalk:

"Do you perforn the [STEC 55X] autopilot check in your POH prior to flight?  I can guess from the servos we see for overhaul or repair.  Part of the Preflight check is to override the servos-including the trim servo.  If the clutches are not over ridden every so often, the torque needed to over ride a runaway servo increases.  I have had a few so bad the cable breaks before the clutch slips.  After you finaly break the clutch loose the first time on a servo that does not get over ridden the clutch will slip at a lower torque.  The clutch is a saftey device, it will not hurt it to be over ridden on the ground (one exception is the cessna autopilots that have shear pins)  If exercised the cluth will stay smooth and the  torque required to over ride it will stay constant.  The king autopilots recommend the clutches be removed and checked yearly.  Just a thought."

and

"The following will not damage any thing;  If you have not over ridden the clutches in a while, if you find they are hard to over ride on the ground, or not smooth when you over ride them try this; with the engine up and running start with the roll.  Turn on the autopilot in heading mode.  Move the heading bug 90 degrees to the right, when the control yoke gets full right manually turn it smoothly full left and hold it there for 60 seconds then release.  Repeat the override to the right 3 times, then do the same with the heading bug 90 degrees to the left.  You should notice the clutch getting smoother.  For the pitch, using the pitch rocker on the controller, command a full down command and over ride full up for 60 seconds release and repeat 3 times and then repeat with a full up command.
For the trim clutch start by just holding the trim wheel and running the electric trim switch up for 30 seconds and then down for 30 seconds, repeat 3 times.
This procedure duplicates the method used on the bench to run the clutches in, and should help get them smooth and closer to the original torque settings."

Here's the link to the thread: http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=64423&hilit=randy+clutch+dan

[Hank]

I test mine while taxiing out before every flight. When I turn, the TC shows a bank opposite direction while the yoke matches the turn. Brittain AccuFlite. Quick. Simple. Inexpensive. Just like Mooneys . . .

thenthiught if a 60-step preflight check is just ridiculous! Nothing but a bunch if lawyers playing CYA, like the eight pages of warnings on my new electric pressure washer, before the five steps of how to use it.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Hank said:

Nothing but a bunch if lawyers playing CYA, like the eight pages of warnings on my new electric pressure washer, before the five steps of how to use it.

Or the dozen warning stickers on my new ladder.

[Jerry 5TJ]

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

Do others check out their autopilot prior to flight?

i try to test at least one of the AP cut-off means each pre-flight and to work through all (4?) of them in turn

the KFC 225 in the Ovation automatically enters POST.

After POST I engage AP in HDG mode & rotate the bug to see yoke move appropriately.

Then I test at least one of the AP cut-off means each pre-flight and to work through all (4?) of them in turn

So, yes, I check the AP each flight.  

[Cardinal767]

I've been flying our M20K for almost a year now from Waco, TX to Denver, CO just about every week. It still has all the original avionics it rolled out with in 1981 and Fore Flight on the Ipad. It took me a while to get back into the old school flying that I did when I learned to fly compared to the Proline 21 system we have in our CJ2.

I never realized how my comfort zone had gotten smaller and smaller over the years until I started flying a single engine aircraft IMC by hand again. I'm happy to say that it's made me a better and more a relaxed pilot in just a few 4 hours flights to Denver. Comfort Zones need to be expanded.

As for night flying in a single engine aircraft, terrain is a huge factor in my planning. With the terrain in a lot of the areas of Colorado and the panhandle of TX being unsuitable for off field landings I absolutely will not do it at night, IMC or VMC. With high terrain, poor radar coverage, and nothing but antelope for miles, you have very little options if things go wrong. 

I've flown the route at 500 feet AGL(for fun) and at FL180, IMC, VMC, inadvertently into icing conditions, alternator failure, vacuum pump failure, Attitude Indicator failure, and dodging wicked T-storms with the knowledge that there are areas where the closest airport is more than 75 miles away over a lot of vertical surfaces. If I absolutely have to fly at night, I want to see a full moon overhead and will try to be at a high cruise altitude by last light of day. But that's just my operating method.      

[gsengle]

On 6/24/2016 at 9:50 PM, Jerry 5TJ said:

Makes sense to me -- if I can't fly the ILS to 200' DH then how am I going to fly it to a 400' or 600' "personal minimum?"  

I get the concept of risk mitigation and understand that difficulties are additive, so a night IMC flight with embedded Cb to max range in icing conditions after a full work day and a big dinner is far beyond my comfort level.   Raising the DH is not going to affect the safety of such a flight.  Waiting until the next morning will improve the probability a lot.  

My buddy the plastics engineer says he can make plastic molded parts that are strong, light and cheap--pick any two.  

 

 

 

Doesn't make sense to me.  The minimums on the approach are just for approaching assuming everything is working.  If you fly over widespread IMC with widespread 200ft ceilings, then an in flight engine failure is frequently fatal.  Listen to the tapes of the one that went down in MA not that long ago, and ask that question again.  My personal minimums are predicated almost entirely on the engine failure scenario, not what I *can* do if everything is working.  I've put it down 3 times now in 20 years to to engine trouble...