Panel Upgrade - Week 1

[Ptsticks]

And with no Needle and Ball, pouring 310 horses on the fire, even with keeping wings level, I skidded almost 90 degrees off heading. The wet compass in a climb and turbulence is like having a bobble head doll on the dashboard. Decoration only. Make no mistake, there is no partial panel in this airplane  I would have given anything for a six pack with a failed attitude indicator. You can be inverted, but without heading there is no missed approach procedure. Get above cloud and get your pulse down. Then get home and search for backups for the panel.

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

What was the cause of the complete failure?

[Ptsticks]

Unknown. But AHRS was replaced. There's only one in the airplane, btw. A second AHRS would be a great option. 

[Danb]

15 hours ago, Ptsticks said:

Newbie here. Thought I would share my panel upgrade.

Decided to install SAM,  for backup attitude, altitude and heading with independent AHRS for heading, after both panels went black in IMC on approach, not the best day. GTX345 Transponder which allowed me to install Garmin 825 active traffic, as well as ADSB In/Out, although not needed in Canada, yet, and no coverage except when I fly along border or into the US, TRIG Comm 3 and TRIG Transponder 2. If I could only find a place for a second engine, I would be happy.

Psticks neat install, how's the 345 working with the G-1000, mine finally gets installed in a couple weeks, I've had it in a box since the first week, I'm interested in the Sam and how many AMU or you can pm me

thanx Dan

[Ptsticks]

Dan,

Because I have WAAS, GTX345 transponder without internal WAAS was ordered, but it would not talk to the G1000. Software version issue. So replacement was shipped  GTX345 with internal WAAS, which necessitated another GPS antenna on the plane. I get ADSB traffic, but no weather, GPS and AHRS, which via bluetooth can go to your iPad. The GPS positioning works but I have yet to get the attitude information to display in Foreflight. Will work on this, but not really urgent since I have the SAM for attitude information. The HSI in Foreflight will provide my navigation in the unlikely event the displays go black again.

On the SAM cost issue...need a little explanation. Didn't like that the SAM got it's heading input from the G1000. If the G1000 AHRS goes down - no heading. And I consider heading to be crucial. I could be wrong. So, I elected to put in a Sandel Heading source to feed the SAM. ($4,995 USD). The SAM ($8,995 USD) and installation, setup and calibration of both was $4,800 USD. Not for the faint of heart - but I love my heart and wanted to make sure it keeps beating for awhile. This just might do it.

Hopes this helps. PM me anytime.

Tom

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, Ptsticks said:

On the SAM cost issue...need a little explanation. Didn't like that the SAM got it's heading input from the G1000. If the G1000 AHRS goes down - no heading. And I consider heading to be crucial. I could be wrong. So, I elected to put in a Sandel Heading source to feed the SAM. ($4,995 USD). The SAM ($8,995 USD) and installation, setup and calibration of both was $4,800 USD. Not for the faint of heart - but I love my heart and wanted to make sure it keeps beating for awhile. This just might do it.

Probably less than the cleaning bill for the front pilot seat after the G1000 AHRS went down in IMC....Great to see you are getting some redundancy installed

[takair]

On May 18, 2016 at 9:18 AM, StevenL757 said:

Interesting - what aircraft type does your client own?  This sounds like a defective antenna caused the issue rather than an antenna proximity issue.  Garmin's Ovation test aircraft has flown thousands of approaches since 2008 with 4xxW, 5xxW, and GTN-series navigators using GA35 antennas mounted side-by-side less than 1 inch apart with no shadowing or loss-of-signal issues since 2008.  It sounds like a different scenario altogether, unless I'm missing something.  Will you update here as the repair/testing situation with your client plays out?

Rgds, Steve

I have seen GPS antenna failure cause what Clarence described on high end business jets when they were in close proximity.  The offending antenna ends up transmitting a harmonic that acts as a jammer.  The result is a loss of both GPSs.  The GPS antennas are not passive, they typically have 5v running to them through the center conductor of the coax.  The failure mode is not common.  Seperation does help, but it gets difficult on our small aircraft.  In normal operation, I have not seen any problems in rather close proximity, as depicted.  

[StevenL757]

Rob, thanks for the additional data.  Can't argue with the logic.  Agree, that on our small aircraft, the more widgets we add that require antennas, the greater the possibilities we run of encountering a scenario like this if one fails.  I'm oddly curious though to understand if a different risk or set of risks exists if you put a GPS antenna within only a couple of inches (for example) of a COM blade, rather than the 2-foot recommendation Garmin suggests.

[takair]

On June 1, 2016 at 9:46 PM, StevenL757 said:

Rob, thanks for the additional data.  Can't argue with the logic.  Agree, that on our small aircraft, the more widgets we add that require antennas, the greater the possibilities we run of encountering a scenario like this if one fails.  I'm oddly curious though to understand if a different risk or set of risks exists if you put a GPS antenna within only a couple of inches (for example) of a COM blade, rather than the 2-foot recommendation Garmin suggests.

Depends on the antenna combination.  Most of my work these days is on helos, where the real estate is even worse.  Mounting the GPS near a comm can cause the GPS to drop out when you transmit due to harmonics that "jam" or swamp the GPS.  This can be managed with notch filters in the comm, but you do start to lose a little range on the comm.. There are combo com/GPS antennas that do it internally, as do many of the combo navigators, like Garmin 430.  Ultimately, unless you have an airline airframe, it becomes a compromise.  Part of the certification is to verify that the comm does not cause the GPS to drop out, so this is tested with each install.  The problem is if it fails, even with a filter.  Now you have to move an antenna.  If you look at many OEM flight test aircraft, they can look like a pin cushion of patches due to antenna moves to optimize each system.  The failure of one GPS taking out the second GPS is rather rare.  Should you ever lose both GPSs, shut one off and see if the other recovers, if not, shut the other off and see if the first recovers.  If you are aware of the possibility of the situation, it can be a fast recovery.  You can also monitor the GPS health on most navigators.  If the comm is near the GPS you can even watch the effect of the comm transmission on the GPS by watching the health of each satellite received.  This is actually what is done during certification.

[tigers2007]

I had to wake this thread back up due to the panel-porn photos at the beginning of the thread. What did you guys pay for labor for the basic upgrade to a standard six-pack? I just received an estimate of 20HRS ($85/hr) for the panel reconfiguration to a standard six pack; I'm providing the panel. Add $300 for a used VSI (current one is rated to 6k feet...) and then $2195 for a G5 plus 2HRS labor for that for a grand total of $4695. I'll move the AI to replace the turn coordinator as I need the AI to drive the Century IIb.

 

 

[Marauder]

I had to wake this thread back up due to the panel-porn photos at the beginning of the thread. What did you guys pay for labor for the basic upgrade to a standard six-pack? I just received an estimate of 20HRS ($85/hr) for the panel reconfiguration to a standard six pack; I'm providing the panel. Add $300 for a used VSI (current one is rated to 6k feet...) and then $2195 for a G5 plus 2HRS labor for that for a grand total of $4695. I'll move the AI to replace the turn coordinator as I need the AI to drive the Century IIb.
 
 

It took me about 5 years in the gym to get my 6 pack and then 2 years drinking 6 packs to get rid of it.

Are they cutting you a new panel or is it just modifying the existing one? I know that a couple of shops quoted me in the 3 AMU range to cut a replacement for my plane.


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[tigers2007]

My intent was to use the black panel in the 2nd photo. There is an overlay with a carbon fiber patter on it; obviously the previous owner had an Aspen in there. They did say that they could construct an entirely new panel for $500-600.

I must say that everything holds true - it is much cheaper to buy a Mooney already fitted with the fancy gadgets and such. $19k acquisition cost. $16k or so for first annual/repairs/gadgets. Achievable dream is to dump $7-19k into it for panel stuff. 2150SMOH now though but still running strong.

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, tigers2007 said:

I must say that everything holds true - it is much cheaper to buy a Mooney already fitted with the fancy gadgets and such. $19k acquisition cost. $16k or so for first annual/repairs/gadgets. Achievable dream is to dump $7-19k into it for panel stuff. 2150SMOH now though but still running strong.

Yeah, I might have said that once or twice myself. 

[tigers2007]

Nothing like an $85k '64 C/D-model. Only ten-percent of a new one though.

[Chocks]

Are they cutting you a new panel or is it just modifying the existing one? I know that a couple of shops quoted me in the 3 AMU range to cut a replacement for my plane.

 

I cut the metal Mooney panels, and if they're marking it up that much, I need to adjust my pricing model.

 

 

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[Marauder]

 
I cut the metal Mooney panels, and if they're marking it up that much, I need to adjust my pricing model.
 
 
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I'm hoping the 3 AMU includes the powder coating/painting, recessing of my Aspens and the transfer of all my remaining gauges after the new holes are cut.

What would it cost just cut a new panel?


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[Bob_Belville]

I think I was charged $300 for a full width (2 pieces) panel, laser cut, silkscreened, as part of a installation. 

[Marauder]

I think I was charged $300 for a full width (2 pieces) panel, laser cut, silkscreened, as part of a installation. 

Maybe I should head south for this work. What amazes me is how much prices like this can vary. And it's not just avionics. A friend is having two trees removed from his house. The prices varied from $1250 for complete removal including grinding of the stump and large roots to over $6,000 for the same work.


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[kortopates]

6 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

I had to wake this thread back up due to the panel-porn photos at the beginning of the thread. What did you guys pay for labor for the basic upgrade to a standard six-pack? I just received an estimate of 20HRS ($85/hr) for the panel reconfiguration to a standard six pack; I'm providing the panel. Add $300 for a used VSI (current one is rated to 6k feet...) and then $2195 for a G5 plus 2HRS labor for that for a grand total of $4695. I'll move the AI to replace the turn coordinator as I need the AI to drive the Century IIb.

 

 

Could you clarify the 6K limitation on the VSI? I have never heard of that and my first thought was the range was limited to +/- 3K FPM, which I was thinking is fine. But I gather you are indicating its only good too 6K of altitude or am I miss understanding (I hope so!)?

I assume you will have your new panel with instruments lined up in the standard 6 config. So what will go on the far lower left that can still be blocked by the ignition keys. FWIW, I sure would want to interchange the positions of the master and ignition switch to get those keys out of the way, or even better move the keys down. I do note you didn't mention upgrading to a full size TC and I hope that didn't imply keeping the small one and moving it under the key? That won't be standard either unless its where the altimeter is now - which is what I would like if it was me. But since you are going from 8 to 9 holes and if keeping Century AI on the pilot side, that's going to screw up your 6 pack arrangement.

If it was me, I would try very hard to move the old Century AI to the co-pilot side out of the way. And only if that was a real problem, I'd ditch the VSI if it was legal with the G5 but I don't think it is. So I'd really get the old AI moved out of the way and for this all out and move the small left hole up for clock/Chronometer/CO meter etc:

     IAS    G5     Alt   CDI/GS-1

     TC     DG    VSI  CDI-2

Just my opinion of course, but with 27 years of flying IFR experience.

BTW, the majority the cost of these is usually the labor in R&R the instruments and making enhancements/changes in lighting etc. The cost of cutting the panel these days is usually very cheap. And if you're instruments are currently unlighted I highly suggest you include at least adding post lights to each unlighted instrument in the panel or practically speaking you will still have a day only IFR panel.

Edited March 4, 2017 by kortopates

[tigers2007]

The VSI I have now is +-6000FPM. Must have been out of a Saberliner or something.

The plan so far is to put my Insight G1 in the bottom left corner in the 2.25" spot (the key ring is quite huge and that's what came with the plane; I don't like key rings so it'll just be the key plus the door lock key). Then put the current attitude indicator in the bottom left to replace the turn coordinator.

         IAS   G5   ALT  CDI/GS-1

G1    AI     DG   VSI   CDI-2

I'm trying to keep the spending under control. Budget 4.5 AMU for the panel upgrade. 6.5 AMU's for an Lynx 9000 (installed). Save the rest of my pennies for the annual this fall and of course for my engine fund.  Maybe next spring/summer go for a GTN?  I have been reading the GNC300XL's manual lately. Lots of dial-play. But it is free and already installed. I have that other thread here discussing a "cheap" way into GPS LPV / ADS-B but I think the best was is to square away my panel, get the Lynx, and buy a brand new iPad mini with a good mount. Goal is to get my IFR ticket this summer and learn to use my bird with the basic instruments and with basic IFR GPS.  

 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

So here is the thing.  Everyone who has done a panel will have had a CAD file drawn for their aircraft. So......does anyone have the *.DWG file for a J panel.  Saves me drawing it so i can join  the panel envy game.  ALs next project, upgrade the gps and a couple of,other bits if amus allow.

What about something like this?  http://www.panelplanner.com

Clarence

[flyboy0681]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Maybe I should head south for this work. What amazes me is how much prices like this can vary. And it's not just avionics. A friend is having two trees removed from his house. The prices varied from $1250 for complete removal including grinding of the stump and large roots to over $6,000 for the same work.


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I know exactly what you mean. I needed to have an oak tree removed last year which was raising the patio slab and had brought in four arborists for estimates. They ran the gamut from $1,200 to $2,500, including grinding. I selected the lowest bidder and he completed the job to my, and the city's satisfaction. Gotta be careful out there.  Two of the guys recommended that I don't get a permit for the job. 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

The VSI I have now is +-6000FPM. Must have been out of a Saberliner or something.

The plan so far is to put my Insight G1 in the bottom left corner in the 2.25" spot (the key ring is quite huge and that's what came with the plane; I don't like key rings so it'll just be the key plus the door lock key). Then put the current attitude indicator in the bottom left to replace the turn coordinator.

         IAS   G5   ALT  CDI/GS-1

G1    AI     DG   VSI   CDI-2

I'm trying to keep the spending under control. Budget 4.5 AMU for the panel upgrade. 6.5 AMU's for an Lynx 9000 (installed). Save the rest of my pennies for the annual this fall and of course for my engine fund.  Maybe next spring/summer go for a GTN?  I have been reading the GNC300XL's manual lately. Lots of dial-play. But it is free and already installed. I have that other thread here discussing a "cheap" way into GPS LPV / ADS-B but I think the best was is to square away my panel, get the Lynx, and buy a brand new iPad mini with a good mount. Goal is to get my IFR ticket this summer and learn to use my bird with the basic instruments and with basic IFR GPS.  

 

Ah, that's much better than I thought. I'd still prefer to see the G1 up higher with the key and master switch below. You are going to spend a quite a bit of money on the panel work. I understand your budget needs but I would think that delta in cost for getting a new panel cut would only be in the neighborhood of 3-4 hundred - but that is something you would have to verify with your shop.

But my biggest concern is substituting your old AI for the TC. If you were a seasoned instrument pilot, I would not be so concerned about replacing your TC with an attitude indicator but as a beginner you will have a lot of added difficulty doing standard rate turns. As a CFI I can tell you the hard part of instrument flying is partial panel, and the biggest problem new instrument pilots have is over backing in turns even when they have the obvious markings on the TC. Although having the backup attitude being in view of your scan is a big plus for partial panel. But IMO you will have the same over banking tendencies even with all your available instruments since you won't have the very obvious TC marking to help you prevent it. Even if you understand how to use your airspeed to calculate your bank rate now and then roll left or right to the number of degrees necessary on your AI to maintain your standard rate, without the TC to back you up I expect your performance is going to suffer from the added workload for quite some time. Further its going to make times turns that much less precise adding to you workload with bigger corrections. With new TC's starting at under $800, getting a used one is not going to break the bank and help you get through your instrument training. I personally think it takes a few hundred hours of instrument time to be good enough to ditch the TC. You'll find your mind is so task saturated doing the basic things that having to substitute mentally from the get go is really adding to your work load. Anyway, I should add that the substitution of a AI for a TC is a bit contentious in the pilot community to begin with. There are those that think its a never a good idea to ditch the TC. I am not in that camp, but given my experience as a CFI I am of the opinion it take a lot of experience to be able get by without it when the work load is extra high. Just look at all the accident reports from being partial panel and the pilot is doomed when they either can't keep the wings level or they can't turn without over banking. In your defense, your more reliable G5 should significantly help reduce your exposure to a partial panel emergency, but I would not want to bet my life on it. I would also encourage your training to include both partial scenarios you are susceptible too: partial without the G5 and partial without the DG & backup AI (which I assume is vacuum based). I mention that because your panel is kind of interesting from a failure mode standpoint with the uniqueness of the G5 which is only primary for attitude. Certainly not a problem but important to be aware and train for the different failures you will see. 

The GNC300XL is not my favorite GPS either, the interface is pretty difficult, but I think you totally have the right idea of using it to get into the ground floor of IFR GPS. Its not WAAS with vertical guidance but a huge improvement over no GPS at all. Plus it will put you miles ahead in your training for getting your ticket compared to the pilot that gets his ticket on VORs alone and then needs to make the transition to GPS. GPS seems like it should be so easy given the moving map and magenta line. But initially GPS adds a lot of complexity just in mastering the programming of the box quickly let alone how to use it in the IFR environment with a lot of things to learn (e.g., loading the full approach vs VTF, usage of OBS for intercepting a radial like VORs versus suspending and unsuspending,  and the world of GPS approach procedures, Q routes, etc...). Their awesome tools but they take some time to learn as well. 

Regardless of how you do your panel, the above was just my experienced opinion, so take it for what it is, but have a great time flying and enjoy your training. You should find it great fun.

[tigers2007]

I wonder if some of these shops also vary their prices in lieu of the depth of the project. For instance, general chatter on MSpace concludes that a G5 installation is 5-10HRS. The shop that quoted me, Kubick Aviation, only lists 2HRS specifically for the G5. Seems accurate as the quote is connected to the replacement of an entire panel.
My latest idea now is to get the panel rearranged (20HRS plus panel cost), keep all of the steam gauges, and install an Aspen next year but still do the Lynx 9000 now. OR, get the Aspen VFR version and upgrade to the Pro series later? In that case I would still have to buy/install the analogue to digital converter to interface with the Century IIb.


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[kortopates]

59 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

I wonder if some of these shops also vary their prices in lieu of the depth of the project. For instance, general chatter on MSpace concludes that a G5 installation is 5-10HRS. The shop that quoted me, Kubick Aviation, only lists 2HRS specifically for the G5. Seems accurate as the quote is connected to the replacement of an entire panel.
My latest idea now is to get the panel rearranged (20HRS plus panel cost), keep all of the steam gauges, and install an Aspen next year but still do the Lynx 9000 now. OR, get the Aspen VFR version and upgrade to the Pro series later? In that case I would still have to buy/install the analogue to digital converter to interface with the Century IIb.


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FWIW, I really like the last option the best because it gets you into more capability with the VFR Aspen sooner, and you'll only have to make a s/w update to get it to the Pro level. But in practical terms I see some needed re-work from that approach. I assume going with the VFR Aspen, you will still need both CDI's, yet when you upgrade to the IFR Aspen you will need some re-wiring on the Aspen to include the CDI/GS inputs and then you will then have a redundant CDI. Perhaps they can pre-wire the Aspen to make that transition mostly only s/w? But yes, it seems you will need the EA adapter, but in so doing you get the immediate relief from no longer having to maintain your old Century AI too. Although its unpredictable when it may fail next, it could put you ahead by not being forced to spend maintenance dollars maintaining it if the unexpected was to happen.