What should i get?

[carusoam]

Day Seven:

He's still here!  

1) He has learned the various ways a plane can be dangerous independent of the type or the HP.

2) He has learned the various ways to gain experience, and all of them take time.

3) Old IPs (instrument panel, not what you are thinking) can be updated using various glass screens from a few different vendors.

4) There are many ways to start out on the airway to Mooneydom.  Only you know what is right for you.

5) Being single allows for extreme financial flexibility.  When a wife and kids depend on your income the ability to use a Heloc to finance a toy becomes incredibly limiting.

6) You can make similar mistakes with mechanical gauges as you can digital screens and an iPad.  Keep looking out the windows.

7) Getting enough experience to know what your forever plane is going to be is a good idea.  Exchanging planes is generally expensive, something your inner accountant would want to avoid if you can.

8) Nice thing about buying your own trainer is the market for them is quite a bit larger than the market for specialized travel machines.  Exchanging a trainer for a Mooney has been demonstrated here a few times.

9) Availability of CFIs to do basic training is much greater than CFIIs that are Mooney specific for IFR training.  Getting a good one is often similar to finding one that matches your personality.

10) When you have a CB budget, every hour spent not moving toward the PPL goal can be terrifying.  Changing instructors can be a horrific experience.  Financial freedom allows for many hours 'wasted' on interesting things that may be interesting to only you...

11) Messy landings are way too common while learning to fly.  The repair expenses include engine teardown to go with your new prop. Doing this with a 35AMU engine can turn into a 60 AMU project if your decision goes to a factory reman replacement.  Insurance will prorate the loss.  They won't pay for you to trade in an old damaged engine for a brandy new one cause you pranged the prop.

 

Start the new week with some simplified goals...

A) Decide to Stay with the same instructor or move to a more convenient situation where you can make more progress steadily.

B ) Make a short list of trainer planes that makes sense to you.  SR20 may be the one. 

C) Make a short list of forever planes that make sense to you.  Ovation with a pilot's door may be just right for you.

D) Know that forever planes do get traded for retirement planes.  Bob's M20E is my favorite example...

E) Some extra-ordinary Mooney people continue to have further financial success.  Twin Aerostars and turbine powered devices are pretty cool.  My home drome has at least one individual with multiple planes including an Acclaim.

 

My list was easy... Piper 140, Cessna 172, Mooney M20C...  All priced the same, affordable.  Speed, efficiency and capability of the Mooney far out weighed the bigger more common/popular names.  An M20C with a panel like Urs has,.... Mmmmmm.  My C worked well for a decade.  It was fully worn out when I was done with it.

When the first decade slides by.... Selecting the next Mooney is wicked easy.  The short list looks like  Eagle, Ovation, Bravo or Acclaim.  Turbo vs Most powerful N/A Mooney , tough choice.

Will you be staying with us another week?  We'll keep the REILs on for you.

Best regards,

-a-

[glafaille]

I guarantee that any C182RG Turbo that you come across WILL be equipped for IFR, and make an excellent instrument trainer, and a goid transition plane towards a Mooney.

 

[Samurai Husky]

@carusoam"Will you be staying with us another week?  We'll keep the REILs on for you."

Whats REIL's? 

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, i get it now; LOL, I thought it was something else. 

@glafaille

I showed this one earlier; but looks the most interesting; http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1413251/1979-cessna-turbo-r182rg-skylane

This is my backup plan: http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1391399/1980-cessna-turbo-r182rg-skylane

Neither say IFR certified; Which might be fine for now; I can make a decision on upgrading it or renting something at a later date; Who knows, maybe I will  have enough hours by then that i can do IFR in a mooney rental; That way i will not only be getting my IFR but cross training at the same time; The nice thing about planes, is its a buyers market; Chances are these planes will still be there 6 months from now, if not, then there is aways something else that may come along.

Update: Never mind, the 2nd one is not only sold with a freash annual, but it just was recert for IFR; I think the 2nd one is probably the best option, since its only 10k more AND it comes with a real autopilot (not newest, but not original 30years old); So i think it would hold its resell better. 

To Everyone: 

I still think a Mooney would fit 90% of my missions; The final pieces would be much later down the road where i would consider a PA46 or a twin; Eventually i want a family and that will mean more useful load and maybe even pressurization. For now after seeing the inside of a m20r, i think that would more then enough room for 2 people and 2 dogs and some luggage; So that is where i am aiming.

Like others have said, I dont have to make a decision today, i have time to work this out; I think my best course is to get my PPL in the Cirrus, then branch out from there. If i need to get a CFI for a check ride for something like the archer II or some other cheap trainer, then I will just find someone cheap that can sit right seat. Outside of that once i PPL, I will see if i can check ride with Don in a Mooney somewhere to see just how far away i am; I think flying one will give me an idea of how out of reach it is; If its far out of reach, then im only out a few hours of time, a few hundred dollars and i know i can start looking for a 200hr trainer. The plan was always to get a PPL then buy a plane, i know it can make more sense to do it today, but why? Let someone elses gear take the punishment as i learn to land

I do not see the benefit in renting for the next 200hrs if i cant bring the dogs; I know a lot of you dont understand that (though some of you completely get it); they are all i have, so where i go they go. If the rentals have a no pet policy, then to me they are not an option for anything more then puttsing around the local area for a few hours, which defeats the purpose of flying.

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[glafaille]

Samurai-

Both of those planes are well equipped for IFR.  I believe that you would have a hard time finding a $100,000 airplane that was VFR only, unless it was a brand new LSA type of plane.

[glafaille]

Samaurai-

The second one has a MUCH better autopilot, and a stormscope.  Go check one of them out to see if you think the cabin size and access will work for you.

[Samurai Husky]

Just now, glafaille said:

Samurai-

Both of those planes are well equipped for IFR.  I believe that you would have a hard time finding a $100,000 airplane that was VFR only, unless it was a brand new LSA type of plane.

yea, sorry about that; I updated my post just as you posted that. The 2nd one looks to be worth the extra money because its being sold with a new annual, the IFR cert was just renewed, it has a gps with attached auto pliot (an older one, but at least something that isnt factory original); I think if its still available once i get my ppl (that is unless i magically can fly a mooney before then); i will head on down to PHX to see the parents and check out the plane

Any comments on flight sims? I know it was brough up earlier; but before i drop $1000 on a flight yoke and rudder petals, i wanted to see if it would help out. Being in IT and i have a pretty impressive computer setup, better than most of the Simulators that i have seen. I know its not a replacement for actual training; But i wanted to see if it would help in general. 

[glafaille]

Samurai-

A fresh annual is worthless to me unless it is performed by a mechanic or facility of MY choosing.  Be wary of someone that offers a fresh annual performed by the same guy that's been doing it for the last several years.  You would be surprised what some pilots are able to talk their mechanics into overlooking.

[Yetti]

I think you are missing the point.  It is not be able to do this or that.  It is be able to do all of them.  Electronics devices are fine, but you need flying skills and pilotage and to be able to fly by the seat of your pants sometime.

During primary training I was with my instructor.  I was flaring for landing on a narrow runway and the outflow of a thunderstorm hit us. Suddenly the plane was 40 feet off the runway.  The only correct action was to fly level gain speed and get out of there.  There was not really any time for my instructor to react. 

Sims are fine, but they are not flying... just sitting behind a computer screen.

[Samurai Husky]

@Yetti

I wasn't trying to suggest that a simulator would be used in place of training or flying time but, more of a supplement to training. its just so hard to get a plane and a instructor and my schedule to all line up at the same time that there are many days (some times weeks) where i cannot get into the cockpit. So i was wondering if there was anything to gain from using one. 

Saying that i want to skip actual flying and play a video game kind of goes against everything this thread stands for.....

If your stance is that the time spent on a simulator is useless, then i wont say anything more. 

 

 

[Hank]

Sims are good for practicing procedures after flying them for real with your instructor. They're also good for checking out airports when planning your long cross country; you can see what the airports look like as you fly towards them.

[Andy95W]

8 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

So you can see, im starting to feel like a ping pong ball. 

Comments? 

I don't know why you're feeling like a ping pong ball.  Everybody keeps saying the same thing.  Don't put the cart before the horse.  You need to learn to fly first.

Mooney Rocket? You don't need a Rocket, you need to learn to fly.

P210? You don't need a P210, you need to learn to fly.

Glass?  You don't need glass, you need to learn to fly.

Stratus?  You don't need a Stratus, you need to learn to fly.

Flight simulator? You don't need a sim, you need to learn to fly first.

When Don Kaye says you're ready for a Rocket, that's when you're ready.  

When you actually NEED a glass cockpit, or a Stratus, or a good flight simulator, you'll know because you'll be an experienced pilot by then.

I'm actually glad this thread has gone to this extent.  I have absolutely no qualms about never reading any more of it.

[Yetti]

I have the yoke, pedals, and throttle quadrant with MSF.   I found it useful to learn things I would not try in a plane, like what is min altitude to turn back when the engine quits on take off.

I have some time in a Full Motion Redbird Simulator it uses MSF for the system.  Just has more screens than most people have.

You can pick up bad habits that your instructor might have to spend time to get rid of.

It can make you more dependent on looking at screens.

It is fun to try and get the C172 to take off from that high airport in Nepal or land the caravan on the carrier.  Or learn that you can restart the Caravan and beat the system.

[Samurai Husky]

@Yetti and @Hank

 

Ok, that answers my question. It sounds like there is no value in it other than anecdotal. I was asking because on the PPL they allow 3 hours of simulator time to be used in place of real time, so i thought there was more value to it than just messing around. (again, not trying to get out flying, just looking for more ways to improve);

Thanks you 2

 

 

[carusoam]

Two topics: MSFS and Family.

MSFS is a great low cost tool.  Not to be confused with a training device, because that it is not... 

the reason it is not allowed is it doesn't model the actual flight environment that well.

It does have recorded sessions/lessons with Rod Machado that will bring you through all the basic lessons of the PPL and IR.

Having a set of IO devices like rudders and throttle quadrants is interesting.  If you were to put a few hundred hours in learning everything there is to know there... You will be knowledgable on most of what the instructor will be teaching you in your next lesson.  Kind of like reading the book before taking a class.  It will be missing the actual experience and muscle memory you seek to gain.  But it could be an interesting way to prep.  Use caution when you talk to your CFI  about your self taught sim lessons.  Know that he will spend a lot of time describing the differences and what can't be gained.  

adjusting the weather, add some clouds, wind and variations...  It can download actual weather from your area.

It is a fun tool.  It can give you a hint of where you may see challenges in the real world.  If you fly the sim really well it will probably help you.  Then again, it may not.  But fly it anyway.  

Fly the sim using all the various nav tools on the panel.  To and from VORs climbing from and descending to an airport.  Manage all the aspects of energy management.  Don't land long, don't land short. When everything is going well set the sim on 2X.

Fly it using a check list. Fly it without the checklists.  I bet you will be able to simulate the cognitive overload that is required to have a gear up landing.  Fly it at midnight, fly it with no rest.  Fly it while being hungry.  Fly it while reading MooneySpace on your IPad like I am doing right now.  A Bravo around NJ at 2X...north to south and back north again. Land at all the airports including grass ones... Simulated grass, really?

Back up a bit, use the C172.  See how few hours are needed to land it on the centerline of your simulated airport.  Compare the same experience using the Bravo.  Tune up a nice crosswind... Try again... And again.

You can spend a lot of hours learning and review lessons in advance using the desktop machine.  What else are you going to use the time for?

It is essentially a game. But, it will teach you more about yourself flying than a game like candy crush or fruit ninja.  How else do you spend your free time.

 

My other favorite topic... Family.  Have you seen the thread with pictures of kids in the back seats of M20s?  Traveling with family, going to visit family.  Nothing better than a Mooney covering distance.  Get ready, time flies.

 

I am only a PP. I have used MSFS to fly many routes to gain some insight prior to the actual flight in a Mooney.  Do your flight plan in real life using real frequencies.  See how the real plan works using the sim...  Fuel load, WnB, and T/O distance.  It is still Only an exercise.  It will not be accurate enough for real life testing...

"we'll leave a light on for you" - Tom Bodett, Motel 6

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

To get your Sim time that is loggable, you will need to be an approved simulator.  Even the Redbird Full Motion sim is not that realistic, but it is cheaper to get some hood time.  My CFII did a lot of his instrument training with MSF. Which is kind of funny since he is now flying a seaplane in Alaska and they fly all Visual sometimes really close to the water/land. Right now you are trying to learn without use of instruments.  That is the V part of VFR. be able to fly plane without any instruments or other gizmods

[bradp]

I agree with Anthony.  Know the limitations.  Home simulators can be useful for trying to get used to a couple of discrete things 1) visual references I.e. when to start turn to base, establishing glide path by visual reference, 2) practicing instrument procedures, 3) basic navigation (Ded reckoning, pilotage depending on the visual fidelity and most importantly 4) radio communications. The last bit can only be accomplished using a network such as Vatsim or (disclaimer the owner is a friend of mine) Pilot Edge.  It would be useful for learning the phraseology if you are going to be interacting with busy bravo controllers.  Takes the fear away.  Over and over VFR pilots get into trouble because they don't feel comfortable interacting with ATC, won't get traffic advisories, etc.  

 

The benefit is that once you get into it, even a non-loggable home sim flying "in the system" can cause a degree helmet fire / cognitive overload and that's the point of this type of practice.  I found in a sufficiently immersive x-plane gone sim setup with yoke / rudder and infrared tracking for visuals, is far superior to the clunker I could legally log approaches in at the flight school especially with a moderately good weather engine.  However it's a little less useful during primary training as compared to instrument training.

 

 I probably had a couple of thousand hours in a sim using these things as tools. But they are useful tool. I was able to do PPL in something like 3 hrs above the min hrs.  I am definitely not Gods gift to aviation (ever hear a pilot say that hehe), I am very average in terms of my skills.  However, I am a life long student and I do lots of homework.  Every lesson was pre-flown and then gone over and over between lessons in the sim so I wouldn't have to spend the next hour re-learning the last lesson.  If you take this type of approach you will perform to your capability.   The key is that the PPL is just the beginning of your homework.  It will be an accomplishment for sure but it is just the beginning...

[Samurai Husky]

Thanks; Thats  what I was thinking. I wasn't suggesting it to get out of flying, I want as much stick time as humanly possible. But on days (or weeks) when i cannot fly, I want to do at least something. Otherwise as Carusom said, i would be playing some other 'game' or trimming pushes and pulling weeds. 

I'll be taking the knowledge test next week (though i might have to reschedule because of work); I am pretty confident i will pass that, but once i do, i have 1 less thing to devote time to; So i wanted to find out what to do next while i sit around waiting.

[glafaille]

Samurai-

You often mention that you sit around waiting, often for weather.  You also complained about having to fly 20 minutes or so during a lesson to get to the practice area.

Why not drive to the practice area in your car and find a school close by?  

I looked online and it looks like Tracy California is a little more than an hour drive from KPAO.  It's in the valley which means the weather should be better, and it looks cheaper as the C172 rental rate appears to be $115 per hour, wet.

You could drive there and fly all afternoon and spend less $$ than you would spend for 1 hour in the Cirrus at Palo Alto.  Plus since the practice area is probably nearby, you would end up with more actual training time.  The bad part is you would have less time to spend on the internet hanging out with us, and you wouldn't be flying a really cool Cirrus with all that nice glass.  

I'll bet you would be learning a whole lot more though with a 172 and steam gauges.  You would probably move forward learning to fly MUCH FASTER.

[N601RX]

It's very possible to solo with 8-10 hrs in a Cessna.  At that point your instructors schedule doesn't matter that much, you can go fly by yourself if he is busy.  Then as soon as possible get the dual cross country out of the way.  At this point you will be able to get your instructor to sign you off for additional solo cross countries (After reviewing your flight planning) if your want to go somewhere in particular.  You can also get signed off for repeated cross countries to the same airport without having to go over your flight planning each time with your instructor.

What are the insurance/flight school requirements for solo on the Cirrus?

[glafaille]

N601:. 

Good point.  I'll bet they won't turn a student loose in a Cirrus with 10 hours under his belt!

It might take a long time to get a PPL with all the headwinds the OP faces. 

Maybe flying the Cirrus is more important than we think.  

If it was me I would have bailed from KPAO long ago in favor of somewhere that I could get it all done quick.

[Yetti]

There is always the written that could be studied for and passed.....   or did I miss that?

I did the Sportys ground school.  Seemed OK

Edited April 3, 2016 by Yetti

[Marauder]

N601:. 

Good point.  I'll bet they won't turn a student loose in a Cirrus with 10 hours under his belt!

It might take a long time to get a PPL with all the headwinds the OP faces. 

Maybe flying the Cirrus is more important than we think.  

If it was me I would have bailed from KPAO long ago in favor of somewhere that I could get it all done quick.

I went to a 141 meat market and got my private in a little more than 5 months. I scheduled to fly 5 to 6 times a week and being summer, flew an average of 4 times. Most of the delay was finding enough good weather to fly the cross countries and 3 weeks worth of delays due to my business travels. I believe flying that frequently made it much easier to learn. The only challenge was on really nice days, the airport turned into a little La Guardia.

[glafaille]

I would like to know what the requirements are for a student to solo from an airport only a few miles from KSFO, with the unpredictability of the weather in the bay area, in a $500,000 airplane.  He could leave on a solo cross country in clear conditions and return a few hours later to 100 ft - 1/4 mi in fog.

Throw in Samurai's schedule, instructor scheduling, airplane scheduling, weather, and possible much higher solo minimums and Samurai could be working on this for a very long time.  It's the sort of thing that discourages people from learning to fly.

I would rather fly old beat up flight school junk than not fly at all.  The only thing worse than being down here wishing I was up there, is being up there wishing I was down here! 

[N601RX]

I have a friend who purchased a very lightly used 2013 Cirrus just as he was finishing up his private.  The insurance required him to get 25 hrs dual in it with a Cirrus approved instructor. They also put in a stipulation that he had to get his IR before renewal.

[Samurai Husky]

When are you allowed to take the written test? I looked online and no one says anything about it; For the knowledge test i just needed sign off, which i got from my instructor and from Gelim; Personally i would love to get the written out of the way before i even solo; But it seems like most people wait until they do their check ride and combine all in one.

I asked another person i know from Florida and he said the test was a joke; I think he just got a bad FAA inspector. I was told that the testers here in the bay area are very 'by the book'. 

About driving to the practice area. That was my first intention; To either go through livermore or Tracy; But Bay Area traffic is a bit unique. What looks like an hour on the map is not realistic. For example, one of my co works lives in Tacy, he is assigned to work in South SF (next to KSFO); He leaves at 4AM to be at work by 7AM. When He leaves at 3 he does not get home until 630PM. If he leaves after 3pm say 4PM, he doesnt get home until 730-8pm. I have personal experiance with this. Leaving from my house to get to Pleasenton at 3PM is about 45 minutes; Leaving at 330 it take 90 minutes, leaving at 4? 180 minutes. So part of the problem is, IF i were to leave right on time and get to the airport at 4:30; then 30mins for preflight another 30 for check lists; Its already 530 and the sun is going down, so up until recently it didnt make sense. With summer coming however and the sun not setting until 8; i think it might be possible to swing it.

The bay area is way over populated and there is no good mass transit; The housing here is ungodly expensive, so they built like rabbits on the other side of the hills in tracy and dublin and even as far out as Stockton. There is only 2 3 lane highways that serve all of those communities over there; So every day about 5 -10 million people flood those highways to get to all the jobs here in the valley, then commute back home in the evening. The lucky ones rent someonse garage 3 days a week and just dont live at home... Thats how crazy it is here

BUT. I will look into it for the weekends and holidays to see if they have any planes available; The weather is slightly better over there depending on the day. Mostly we are canceled not because of cloud cover, but wind conditions which affect the whole area. 

@glafaille

totally agree. though its the beat up trainers that are the ones that are the hardest to get because they are cheap and need no mins; The only one people dont like flying for some reason is one of the Archer II's which i brought up many times. 

Not too worried about fog; You will get low ceilings and fog closer to SF than you will down by SJC because the mountains higher near the coast. The marine layer is on a schedule, so it comes in or at around the time time every day; Here is a good example: When its strong, it will over power the mountain and fall into the valley like tar (though rarely reaches ground level, maybe down to 1000ft?). The farther south you are, the more land there is between you and the ocean. For instance, for me to get to the ocean its at least a 45 minute drive due west. In SF its less than 10 min. Because of that distance, the warm ground will evaporate the moisture and the cloud mass stops. Its kind of surreal to see a line of clouds reach a certain point and just disappear, especially on days when the clouds are moving really fast. 

It doesn't burn off until about 12PM every day either (which is a problem for trying to fly in the morning); Welcome to inversion land. 

The opposite actually happens out in Tracy; because of all the agriculture out there, they get straight up fog that might stick around until 10 or 11, but wont return until much later in the following morning (2am or so); 

The nice thing about all of this is that its very predictable. Not that i would push my luck, but in general i know the times to avoid. from 1-10PM you are pretty much guaranteed clear skys and high ceilings during the summer. The problem is you get very erratic wind changes. The wind here will flip on a dime depending on the type of day. 

I know a lot of this sounds like excuses. But i am the last one that wants to use an excuse as a reason for not flying. Its just I have already been over all of this about 50 times before I came here; I really envy those out in area's where there is a plane available all the time.

FYI; KPAO is(or was) the busiest GA airport in the country.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Samurai Husky