Squawks So Far...

[Browncbr1]

Sometimes I fly 100mph over the numbers because I need to land 1.5 miles down the runway so I don't have to taxi for 10 minutes.   Whatever

i hope we don't read about you augering you and your pax in one day on base or coming up short when your only motor cuts out.  Contrary to what some on this site preach, flying a mooney is not an exact science...  I'm only trying to suggest folks don't fly too slow until short final.  As far as I know, flying 10-15mph faster in the pattern won't kill anyone.    Think about it    There is plenty of time to slow down before you're on the ground   

I recommend folks pull out your books and find your gross stall speed at 40 degree bank angle, it will surprise you.  You should be 1.3x that until final, minimum in my opinion.  Your airspeed indicator also is probably off 2-3mph +/-, as called out in the POH.  And add wind gust difference to that.   One time, halfway down final, I encountered 20mph windsheer.   If I had been flying like some of you suggest, it could have been a bad day.   Just the other day, on a turbulent downwind, I lost 15mph instantly just before turning base.

Stay safe, you don't need the stall horn blaring and remember you need energy to arrest your descent before flare.  If the stall horn is on, you better put your ass on the ground before you land 3 feet in the air or worse.  My uncles old parter put the mains through the wing of their C401 when he had the stall horn on just before touchdown and a gust cause him to balloon 10 feet because of his high angle of attack, then came back down hard, instead of going around    ..

 

In my opinion, if youre listening more to your ASI than all the other things the plane and conditions are telling you, sooner or later that ASI will get someone killed.  MHO

[N201MKTurbo]

If I want to land long I do a normal landing, but adjust my touchdown point. Although it is courteous to inform the tower of a long landing, frequency congestion permitting, there is no requirement to do so.

[N201MKTurbo]

53 minutes ago, N1395W said:

Check out the displaced thresholds!

Why are the thresholds displaced so much? A lot of good asphalt going to waste?

[Browncbr1]

Tip stall is a soaring term.  It's when you are above stall speed in level flight, but your below stall speed at a relevant angle of bank.  Thus, your plane tips over into a spin or spiral.    (Stall speed increases with angle of bank.)

 

[Andy95W]

4 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Sometimes I fly 100mph over the numbers because I need to land 1.5 miles down the runway so I don't have to taxi for 10 minutes.   Whatever

i hope we don't read about you augering you and your pax in one day on base or coming up short when your only motor cuts out.  Contrary to what some on this site preach, flying a mooney is not an exact science...  I'm only trying to suggest folks don't fly too slow until short final.  As far as I know, flying 10-15mph faster in the pattern won't kill anyone.    Think about it    There is plenty of time to slow down before you're on the ground   

I recommend folks pull out your books and find your gross stall speed at 40 degree bank angle, it will surprise you.  You should be 1.3x that until final, minimum in my opinion.  Your airspeed indicator also is probably off 2-3mph +/-, as called out in the POH.  And add wind gust difference to that.   One time, halfway down final, I encountered 20mph windsheer.   If I had been flying like some of you suggest, it could have been a bad day.   Just the other day, on a turbulent downwind, I lost 15mph instantly just before turning base.

Stay safe, you don't need the stall horn blaring and remember you need energy to arrest your descent before flare.  If the stall horn is on, you better put your ass on the ground before you land 3 feet in the air or worse.  My uncles old parter put the mains through the wing of their C401 when he had the stall horn on just before touchdown and a gust cause him to balloon 10 feet because of his high angle of attack, then came back down hard, instead of going around    ..

 

In my opinion, if youre listening more to your ASI than all the other things the plane and conditions are telling you, sooner or later that ASI will get someone killed.  MHO

I understand the trepidation in flying a Mooney properly.  Airspeed makes you feel safe, and flying the airplane onto the runway with excess airspeed often results in a satisfyingly soft touchdown.

Couple that with instructors who really don't know or understand Mooneys, who are afraid of them themselves, and pass those fears along to others and you have people flying faster and faster in the traffic pattern.  If a little extra airspeed is good, then even more must be even better.  I know.  I was one of those myself.

We have wind shear and down drafts at my airport.  I am not afraid to carry a little extra airspeed on final (about 1/2 the gust factor as a start) because I'm not starting out 15-20 mph too fast.  

[Andy95W]

9 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Why are the thresholds displaced so much? A lot of good asphalt going to waste?

Due to trees at both ends that the county doesn't want to cut down.  Funny, they like taking our rent money, but they don't like putting any money back into the airport.

Edited March 13, 2016 by N1395W

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, N1395W said:

 

20 years ago, when I owned my first Mooney, that is exactly how I used to fly it.  I also had a 5000' long runway so it didn't matter.  I have to admit now, in retrospect, I was probably a little afraid of my airplane.

Now I fly out of an airport with less than 2000' landing distance available X 40' wide.  If I came in over the numbers at 80-85 I would be off the end into a swamp.  A friend of mine flies an Ovation in and out of this same airport, and I guarantee he wasn't doing 80-85 over the numbers, so F model versus C model differences also do not apply.

Mooneys fly very nicely by the numbers: 1.3Vso on final, slowing to 1.1-1.2Vso over the numbers.  And no, you won't "tip stall the wing" (whatever that is).  Or go to a 5000' long runway where sloppy airspeed control doesn't matter.

Check out the displaced thresholds!

Going into 2000, let alone grass, I'm with you.  I'd be full flap, 70mph or so.

I'm not afraid of my plane, but I do respect what can happen if things or condition don't go to plan.   All I'm trying to say is that I hope folks fly according to context.   If you're landing on 2000ft, go slow.  If you're on a 2mile controlled field, going that slow when there is no reason to at 5 o'clock when commercial jets are lined up and everyone is waiting on you to land is not good for GA.    

 

[midlifeflyer]

Understand that there is a benefit to an instructor with type familiarity, for any make/model. That's not to say one needs a Mooney specialist. I think the problem that has been that CFIs, like pilots in general, get used to what they fly. A CFI who has spent most if not all of their time in only one or two types just haven't had the range of experience or opportunity to really understand how different other types can be. 

Its just like transitions for any pilot. The first transition to a new type is usually the most difficult. As you check out in more and more types, they get easier, in part because you begin to see the similarities and learn to focus on the few, albeit important, differences. Same for instructors.

mooneys are not particularly difficult to fly or land. In general, they are just slipperier and require closer attention to maintaining the proper airspeed than some other models.

[Hank]

Stall speed in your POH is at gross, and declines by the ratio of the square of your landing weight to the square of gross weight.

My plane's listed stall speed with takeoff flaps is 61 mph. So I aim for 1.3 x 61 = 79 mph on short final. I further reduce this target by 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross for each landing. So I often target 75 mph on short final, and am frequently 70 mph over the numbers. The stall horn should squall with the tires a few inches off the asphalt. I was based my first seven years on a 3000' x 75' field with trees on both ends; this worked well there, it works well at my current 5000' x 100' base, and it has done me well landing at various Class C up to 12,000' x 200' (when they don't make me fly straight in, or follow an airliner on ten mile final).

When it's gusty or twitchy, add half the gust factor. So if it's 10G15, add 2-1/2 mph; if it's 15G25, add 5 mph. When the wind is variable, keep your hand ready to adjust the throttle. (It's already on the throttle anyway, right?) Wind from the north in my video above, whistling through a gap in the ridge, would create sink over the trees on final, countered by pushing the throttle a little bit to get through it, then reducing it to continue the descent.

I don't recall, nor care, what my stall speed is at 40° bank. In the pattern, if you're so off that you need a 40° bank to salvage the approach, go around. And yes, I've done a go around, at night, with my wife and luggage for a week, when I porpoised on the runway. Two bounces and everything went forward, with me praying to clear the trees. Second landing was uneventful. All the way around the pattern I was chanting, "Make a normal landing. Figure it out later." Figured out later that I was so glad to be home that I quit flying in the flare. When I misjudge the base to final turn and end up wide, I just keep the same gentle bank and fly back towards the runway; if I'm really wide, I just go around and turn final sooner the next time.

When a gust picks me up in the flare, I give it a little throttle, level off, pull throttle and land. Just like a did as a student pilot on my second of three landings when I soloed. The Mooney is an airplane, it lands like an airplane, the laws of physics and aerodynamics apply to it the same way, too. Extra speed is what puts Mooneys in the grass off the end of the runway, or speeding through the weeds beside the runway . . .

Edited March 13, 2016 by Hank

[Andy95W]

Just now, Browncbr1 said:

Going into 2000, let alone grass, I'm with you.  I'd be full flap, 70mph or so.

I'm not afraid of my plane, but I do respect what can happen if things or condition don't go to plan.   All I'm trying to say is that I hope folks fly according to context.   If you're landing on 2000ft, go slow.  If you're on a 2mile controlled field, going that slow when there is no reason to at 5 o'clock when commercial jets are lined up and everyone is waiting on you to land is not good for GA.    

 

I agree completely.  There are times when wind shear conditions at my airport mean that I can't fly, while the same conditions 10 miles away at the closest commercial airport would not keep me on the ground.  All about context and safety and understanding the airplane's limitations (as well as my own).

[Andy95W]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

Stall speed in your POH is at gross, and declines by the ratio of the square of your landing weight to the square of gross weight.

Every time I try to do these calculations on short final it doesn't work out well for me...

 

[Yetti]

At gross from the F manual.  YMMV

 

[Hank]

48 minutes ago, N1395W said:

Every time I try to do these calculations on short final it doesn't work out well for me...

 

Me neither! That's why I settled on Bob Kromer's advice and use 5 mph per 300 lbs below gross.

Me and full fuel, with typical junk, is just above 2100 lbs, almost 500 below gross of 2575. Half gas will easily put me 600 below gross. That's another 10 mph for me to slow down. Add my wife and almost full fuel, no baggage, I only slow down 5 mph. 

Its not so hard to do, counting hundreds on my fingers. Just like counting thousands of feet from cruise to pattern, then doubling to get descent time at 500 fpm, and adding a couple to allow for deceleration. Easy! Finger math is the best . . .

[Browncbr1]

33 minutes ago, Yetti said:

At gross from the F manual.  YMMV

 

I'm not sure if they changed for some years, but mine says 78mph for 40 Deg bank with gear out and flaps at 15deg.  That's one reason why I normally fly the entire pattern at 90mph and slow to 80-85 on final...  I don't see why this is so controversial.  Earlier when I said sometimes I'll fly 100 over the numbers, I failed to mention I'm still nearly at pattern altitude. I wouldn't dare be on short final that fast.   i also re-read my post talking about stall speed in high bank..  I didn't mean to say 1.3x high bank stall, which mine is 78 dirty.   I guess I should never talk about speed over the numbers because I honestly never look after I'm a couple hundred feet before the threshold.  I stabilize my final 80-85 before that point.   From there I fly on feel and sense angle of attack and energy...  I couldn't tell definitively what my IAS when my wheels touch or in the flare or over the numbers.  You can easily feel if it's not ready to flare.   Anyway, sorry if my comments raised eyebrows.  I guess I just wanted to caution against getting low, slow, in the seasonal conditions, and different terrain.  

[gsxrpilot]

All this mathematics, algorithms, and calculus, is making my head spin. Whatever happened to just flying the airplane? Once I've verified with my ASI that I'm slow enough to get the gear out, I'm done with it. Just look out the window and fly the airplane. It's just a piston single, it's not like I'm trying to land a 747.  Of course I'm just landing a C model. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

All this mathematics, algorithms, and calculus, is making my head spin. Whatever happened to just flying the airplane? Once I've verified with my ASI that I'm slow enough to get the gear out, I'm done with it. Just look out the window and fly the airplane. It's just a piston single, it's not like I'm trying to land a 747.  Of course I'm just landing a C model. 

To cool for school.  Whatever.  It is not a lot of mathematics.  No they are NOT 747's, but really experienced pilots die in the pattern.  So speed DOES matter.  Overruns ARE a problem and LOC. To each their own, But I have learned about speed control and use of flaps to minimize energy from Mooneyspace.  I appreciate the posters clarification regarding "over the numbers speed" as I ultimately fly a LOT like him in pattern.  I slow to 80MPH and pitch for that speed on final.  Once the runway is made I am power OUT and I don't look at the ASI again.  I let the plane come down.  I round out and I DO nearly always hear the stall horn in the flare before mains are down.  I pull yoke back and hold it off.  I used to fly with NO FLAPS on landing.  Then take off flaps.  I am a full flaps convert.  I am an average pilot, BUT I know that slower is better at touch-down in my Mooney.

Bonai:  YOU should be challenging yourself to master full flap landings in your plane.  If I can do it well YOU can.

[Brian Scranton]

This is awesome...lots of great conversation. As the OP, I feel obliged to report on the topic of squawks so far: 

1) per your recommendations, I blew some air through the MP gauge hose...to no avail. I'll get another gauge this week and swap it out. Really need that thing working...

2) right roll tendency was a flap issue--brought the left flap in one full turn and that has corrected that!

3) 14'', 1700rpm, get to 80mph an start down, really works well abeam my landing point...over the numbers at 75, touchdown at 70...anything faster and I float for 500-1000 feet. 

4) It's been so much fun learning this airplane. 

[steingar]

I can't imagine making such steep banks so close to the ground.  Yeah, if that's what it takes to salvage the approach its time for a new one.  I was taught to make a stable approach, and that advice has always served me well.  Like I said, if you can't put it down routinely within 1500 feet you're good to go no matter how you do it.  I can't imagine doing that coming in an 85 mph over the numbers, but most of you are better pilots than me and probably have it figured out with some dark magic or something.

Thing is, if you come into a 5k foot strip and land in thousands of feet every time, the once you're going to have to come in shorter (shorter runway, emergency, whatever) it will be an unusual landing.  Maybe you can do it, maybe not.  If you put it in short every time the one time you're really going to need it you'll be doing the usual.  I've been told that in an emergency most pilots overshoot.  Gee, I wonder why?

[MyNameIsNobody]

I reduce power abeam the numbers and I pitch to maintain 100MPH through my base turn to final turn.  THEN I add full flaps/trim and stabilize at 80MPH on final.  Power out when runway made and let her come down.  If I have a significant headwind I use power as needed.  90MPH may be the "sweet spot" for speed in pattern, but I have 100 on ASI as white (flap arc) and serves me well as a quick reference.  I have no problem slowing to 80 on final with flaps and gear.  My co-owner, an instrument rated pilot, used to drag the plane in on final...down low.  I have converted him.  His tendency was to get low and slow on base to final turn.  I would be on him about airspeed...I don't want a steep bank on overshoot down low and slow...

[Yetti]

I have likened piloting to golf.   I don't play golf.   Everyone is trying for that great landing, just like they are trying for that great put or great tee shot.  Then everyone sits around the clubhouse and comments on the landings of the day and talks about other people's game.  Carry on!

[MyNameIsNobody]

You come up short or long on a putt and it's a bogey.  The penalty in landing is a little more expensive...

I agree that practice for both can result in better execution when it really matters.  A good pilot and golfer is always learning and the ability to pick up bad habits is always there with the results.  Weather/wind impacts both in a potentially catastrophic negative fashion.  Some of the best "wind" golfers and flyers are from Texas and their near north neighbors.  Certain pilots and golfers are arrogant about "their" game and it definitely comes easy for some vs. others that have to work hard to be proficient.  In both it is all about the equipment.  A lot can be spent OR you can be a CB and buy the latest/greatest when it is a few years old and "step up" to some nice improvement hardware for pennies on the dollar.

Standing on the first tee is a lot like flying final.  It is ALL you and there should be some nervous energy.  Practice prepares you to execute...But alas sometimes the rough, like a little too much speed will "catch you".  The ability to hang tough and salvage...to NOT shoot that Big number THAT is what separates you from the also-fans.  Neither are "games" of perfection.

[Guitarmaster]

On March 14, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Brian Scranton said:

This is awesome...lots of great conversation. As the OP, I feel obliged to report on the topic of squawks so far: 

1) per your recommendations, I blew some air through the MP gauge hose...to no avail. I'll get another gauge this week and swap it out. Really need that thing working...

2) right roll tendency was a flap issue--brought the left flap in one full turn and that has corrected that!

3) 14'', 1700rpm, get to 80mph an start down, really works well abeam my landing point...over the numbers at 75, touchdown at 70...anything faster and I float for 500-1000 feet. 

4) It's been so much fun learning this airplane. 

FWIW, my MP/FP took a dump.  Just old.  Replaced it and, VOLIA!  MP and FP again...

[Brian Scranton]

Mine just needed an overhaul--it took a solid 90 mins for our instrument guy to fix it. MP readings are precise and responsive--oh, what a world! 

[carusoam]

It is hard to set power properly without an MP gauge.  Having a TN, adds endless possibilities to the challenge.

with an NA engine, Max output will be limited by and follow atmospheric pressure at a given altitude.

Without having a reliable MP display, power is near impossible to set.  The alternatives are running LOP and watching FF, or using a vernier throttle and calibrating the number of rotations with MP approximations.

Congratulations on getting that gauge sorted out.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Shadrach]

Brian,

This thread has been an interesting read. It reads like you're off to a good start. A few things I would like to add:

 

1) Climb rate - 300FPM at 5700' is anemic for an F model even at gross.  Something is wrong if that's the best you can do without the turbo.  Even at MGW, I'm through 11,000 before the climb starts to approach 400fpm. This time of year when I'm solo, I can hold 500FPM into the teens. I've had my NA F to DAs in excess of 18,500'. If Iwas down to 300FPM at 5700, I think I'd have given up there.

 

2) Pattern and threshold speeds. Fly with adequate margins. Stall speed in a descending turn is not the same as the stall speed in a turn while hiding altitude, but it's not an area where you want to come up short either.  Maybe go do some accelerated stalls at different bank angles at altitude with your instructor.  

I must say that can't see much utility in crossing the numbers at much more than 1.2xVso, maybe 1.3Vso if it's windy and you have the extra runway.   There are folks out there that have been been approaching so fast for so long, that they have simply forgotten what the airplane feels like at correct approach speeds. 80-85MPH over the numbers in an F model is too fast for anything except maybe doing touch & go's at MGW on a very windy day (an unlikely scenario).  85mph is nearly 1.4Vso...at MGW. The typical landing weight of a 20F with a single pilot doing maneuvers is around 2100lbs or so.  In my plane with 20lbs of junk in the back, 30gals of fuel and say 190lbs of pilot, works out to 2078lbs. 80mph over the numbers would be nearly 1.5Vso at that weight; 85mph would 1.57Vso. Does that seem like sound advice? Does it seem precise?  It's not. 

This is an internet forum with a lot of opinions. Some good and some not so good. Same with instructors, some good, some not so good. When you're green, you do the best you can with what's available to you. Given that you're in a turbo Mooney, you need not take my word for it.  You've likely got the experience to be comfortable calculating the numbers for yourself.  Stall speed by weight is calculated as follows:

√(weight / max gross weight) x Vso @ MGW

so

√(2100/2740) x 62MPH  

√(0.766) x 62MPH  

.875 x 62mph =  new Vso of 54.25mph
Threshold speeds (over the numbers)

1.1 x 54.25mph = 60MPH (CAS)

1.2 x 54.25mph = 65MPH (CAS)

1.3 x 54.25mph = 70MPH (CAS)

As you can see 70mph is a lot of margin at lighter weight.

There is a reason why Mooneys have a reputation for skidding off the departure end of runways they've just landed on. It's because over the years many Mooney pilots have found themselves trying to land an airplane that is still flying.  They have little to no aerodynamic braking because the nose up pitch required for such braking would cause the plane to become airborne.  They have little to no friction braking because there is very little weight on the wheels. To top off the aforementioned $hitshow, they are also traveling at a relatively high rate of speed.  This scenario leads to an aircraft floating along with the unweighted tires squealing to little effect while the "pilot" (more like left seat passenger) continues to stand on the brakes wondering why the plane won't stop as the whole mess careens off the end of the runway.  Crossing the numbers at speeds well over what is warranted does not increase margins in my opinion, it diminishes them long term by fostering bad habits.  We all flub approaches from time to time. Learn to use all of the tools at you disposal including full deflection forward slips.  Having the ability to put the plane into a 1500' field (or less) at just above flying speed maybe a life saver some day.

For short field landings, I shoot for an altitude and altitude that will yield 1.2Vso power off as soon as possible after leveling on final. I do not like to drag it in under power. From short final to landing I prefer steep power off approaches using pitch to hold speed transitioning 1.1Vso at the threshold with a pronounced nose up flare in ground effect. Soft touch, little to no float.