Cirrus Down in TX near the pattern 60R

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, 1524J said:

So here's my thoughts......the Cirrus accident in Florida hit a little close to home. I'm an instrument rated pilot with a little over 650 hours, 500 of that in a Mooney. I consider my self an amateur pilot but competent. Sounds a lot like the guy in Florida. I think I've gotten complacent over the years with always flying the standard pattern, never pushing any limits, basically a "tow the line" kinda guy. After reading this thread, viewing a couple of the video's and needing my biennial, I called my CFI and said lets go flying. It'd been awhile since I'd done power off, 180 degree turns or pulling power abeam the numbers to land. I guess my point.....and a little confession, is that I need to practice these maneuvers more than an hour every other year. You get in a situation where split second decisions need to be made and it needs to be muscle memory that kicks in.

You have succinctly articulated the challenge for many folks who fly XC machines like Mooneys. I used to be the same, using the plane for XCs, $100 breakfasts and occasionally poking holes in the sky. About a year ago, I started flying a Decathlon (8KCAB) occasionally (every 4-8 weeks after TW check out). I am an adequate TW pilot On my worst days and average on my best days. My instructor is the kind of guy that will ask the tower for a landing clearence opposite direction on the runway we've just departed at 1000ft AGL and then pull power or request the cross runway while I'm on down wind. With no flaps available, all of these things are fun and challenging in the 8KCAB. This kind of flying is also doable in the Mooney, albeit at different speeds. i think that every Mooney pilot should be proficient at full deflection cross controlled slips. The funny thing is, I have never, ever seen a Mooney do a forward slip in the pattern, though I have seen plenty that should have...and then watched 1500-2000 ft of runway pass under them before touch down.

[Yetti]

Apparently this has been an issue since 1946

#4 Never make steep turns at low altitude

One of things noted in the video is that "you don't experience mushy controls or buffeting as you would in level flight"  reinforces the what are we teaching in primary training

 

[Bob]

34 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Apparently this has been an issue since 1946

#4 Never make steep turns at low altitude

One of things noted in the video is that "you don't experience mushy controls or buffeting as you would in level flight"  reinforces the what are we teaching in primary training

 

Very nice addition to this discussion.  Retro cool!

[MyNameIsNobody]

My take-away is the same as it has always been.  Know your limitations and those of your Mooney.  I have and always will make a shallow, coordinated turn Base to Final.  I turn early, not late and compensate.  I fly Upwind, downwind and base at 100MPH.  With power reduced at numbers I pitch for 100 MPH.  I reduce power and add all flaps on final.  I have a sterile cockpit.  I am focused on flying the airplane.  I am 80MPH on short final with power OUT.  I hear the stall horn in the flare...

If a Mooney Test Pilot can stall and die base to final THIS IS something to have your attention.  Just like the movie said for WWII pilots.  Higher stall with higher G's...Planes stall at any airspeed with pulling (G's) and turning (climbing turn) causing higher airspeed stall.  

I never have a need to do a steep turn down low.

[aviatoreb]

Fantastic movie - amazing to see the degree to which stick and rudder theory was so fully developed by WWII, just as true today as it was then, and how really there has not been much else to say since then since it was already fully developed, but the same accidents still happen because we need to keep learning these old lessons as new pilots come to the front.

[1524J]

38 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

My take-away is the same as it has always been.  Know your limitations and those of your Mooney.  I have and always will make a shallow, coordinated turn Base to Final.  I turn early, not late and compensate.  I fly Upwind, downwind and base at 100MPH.  With power reduced at numbers I pitch for 100 MPH.  I reduce power and add all flaps on final.  I have a sterile cockpit.  I am focused on flying the airplane.  I am 80MPH on short final with power OUT.  I hear the stall horn in the flare...

If a Mooney Test Pilot can stall and die base to final THIS IS something to have your attention.  Just like the movie said for WWII pilots.  Higher stall with higher G's...Planes stall at any airspeed with pulling (G's) and turning (climbing turn) causing higher airspeed stall.  

I never have a need to do a steep turn down low.

You and I are exactly the same. Our pattern technique is almost identical. I just can't help seeing myself sitting in the left seat of the Cirrus in the Florida accident. In my view, he did everything the way he was supposed to right up to the controller giving him panicked instruction to turn right. It appears the panicked nature of the instruction startled him to the point he did just the opposite of the instructions given, then compounded the problem by a climbing steep bank turn. It happened so fast. I'd really like to think I would have handled the situation differently.....but I'm just not sure. What I know I can do......practice emergency situations with more frequency, Yesterday, during my biennial, I did several power off 180 degree turns. My best efforts yielded a 400' lose of altitude. But I was ready mentally....I knew it was coming. If it happened for real during takeoff I think I would need a minimum of 600' (probably more) to get back around and hopefully I would remember to "push" instead of "pull" giving myself a opportunity to clean my shorts once I got back on the ground.

[1524J]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Ii think that every Mooney pilot should be proficient at full deflection cross controlled slips. The funny thing is, I have never, ever seen a Mooney do a forward slip in the pattern, though I have seen plenty that should have...and then watched 1500-2000 ft of runway pass under them before touch down.

Funny you should mention forward slips.....I used to practice them frequently when I was a new Cherokee 140 pilot. Until yesterday, I can't remember doing a forward slip in a Mooney. ( I definitely need work)  The Mooney rudder doesn't pull the nose around like I remember in the Cherokee.

[Shadrach]

Just now, 1524J said:

Funny you should mention forward slips.....I used to practice them frequently when I was a new Cherokee 140 pilot. Until yesterday, I can't remember doing a forward slip in a Mooney. ( I definitely need work)  The Mooney rudder doesn't pull the nose around like I remember in the Cherokee.

What kind of Mooney are you flying?  I see some pretty dramatic yaw in my F with full rudder deflection.

[1524J]

29 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

What kind of Mooney are you flying?  I see some pretty dramatic yaw in my F with full rudder deflection.

It's a bit of bastard Mooney. '65C model but the panel forward is off a '78J. I mentioned to my CFI that it didn't feel like the nose was coming around far enough. He said I was just getting old and had forgotten how to fly.

 

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, 1524J said:

It's a bit of bastard Mooney. '65C model but the panel forward is off a '78J. I mentioned to my CFI that it didn't feel like the nose was coming around far enough. He said I was just getting old and had forgotten how to fly.

 

So what you have there is the equivalent of a "hot rodded" E model with a short rudder. That's a nice looking bird; how does it perform?

[1524J]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

So what you have there is the equivalent of a "hot rodded" E model with a short rudder. That's a nice looking bird; how does it perform?

Four way track test @ 7500' 2400 RPM 150kts.

[carusoam]

The short rudder of the 65C is known for running out of rudder in high X-winds.  (I have that experience from my 65C.)

More challenging would be the same short rudder of an M20B, with less rudder throw.

I really like the J firewall forward on the C.

1524J, you need to include that detail in your avatar. 

Best regards,

-a-

[1524J]

I tried to imagine a situation where I might get an unexpected surprise at my home field in central Texas while in the pattern. Here we have our very own feathered drones called buzzards. I know I've been on short final and had one come close enough that I could have slapped it as it passed by the left side of my windscreen. I've been taught to always try to stay above buzzards as they will dive quickly. Turning base to final might be a situation where my "muscle memory" reaction to buzzards is to pull on the yoke it get above them. 

[1524J]

6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The short rudder of the 65C is known for running out of rudder in high X-winds.  (I have that experience from my 65C.)

More challenging would be the same short rudder of an M20B, with less rudder throw.

I really like the J firewall forward on the C.

1524J, you need to include that detail in your avatar. 

Best regards,

-a-

Yeah.....I've thought about trying for one of those handicap stickers that you hang from your mirror. My handicap is I'm technologically disadvantaged. My five year old granddaughter helps me with computer stuff. 

[Yetti]

One thing in the Navy video was a stall speed based on angle of bank.  There is a table in my POH.  I converted it to a graph and added 30 and 50 degree bank by calculation

[chrisk]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

One thing in the Navy video was a stall speed based on angle of bank.  There is a table in my POH.  I converted it to a graph and added 30 and 50 degree bank by calculation

This is why I typically fly 90 kts until I am on final.

And the other thing the Navy video hammered on was to fly on speed.  Well they also pointed out that you can stall at any speed.  The point was for a given weight and G load, (bank angle for level flight), you should know the stall speed and be above it.

 

[aviatoreb]

39 minutes ago, chrisk said:

This is why I typically fly 90 kts until I am on final.

And the other thing the Navy video hammered on was to fly on speed.  Well they also pointed out that you can stall at any speed.  The point was for a given weight and G load, (bank angle for level flight), you should know the stall speed and be above it.

 

The King's make a compelling argument in one of their arguments that one precursor mitigating factor leading to overshoot then stall spin accidents in the patter during base to final turn is too much speed on base.  Too much speed on base (or even downwind) might cause it easier to overshoot and then the urge to yank it back onto course for final. Some might say 90 is a tad high on base.  And any more than that is more than a tad.

[N33GG]

6 hours ago, 1524J said:

I tried to imagine a situation where I might get an unexpected surprise at my home field in central Texas while in the pattern. Here we have our very own feathered drones called buzzards. I know I've been on short final and had one come close enough that I could have slapped it as it passed by the left side of my windscreen. I've been taught to always try to stay above buzzards as they will dive quickly. Turning base to final might be a situation where my "muscle memory" reaction to buzzards is to pull on the yoke it get above them. 

Yep... Buzzards. You don't want to fly under them.  When they get spooked, the tend to tuck their wings and drop like a rock. 

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, Yetti said:

One thing in the Navy video was a stall speed based on angle of bank.  There is a table in my POH.  I converted it to a graph and added 30 and 50 degree bank by calculation

Remember, that those speeds are at max gross weight. For single pilot with 1/3 tanks, the whole graph shifts down about 8KTS. 

 

3 hours ago, chrisk said:

This is why I typically fly 90 kts until I am on final.

And the other thing the Navy video hammered on was to fly on speed.  Well they also pointed out that you can stall at any speed.  The point was for a given weight and G load, (bank angle for level flight), you should know the stall speed and be above it.

 

What would you say your limit is in terms of runway length?  Do you fly larger patterns.  Thats good traing for when you upgrade to that Beech C90.

[Yetti]

I'll take your 8 knots and raise you gusting 10-12 knots.  At 2500 feet today we took a 20 degree knock down...  Pretty easy to do the turns at 90mph and make the 2000 foot turn off.

[Shadrach]

39 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I'll take your 8 knots and raise you gusting 10-12 knots.  At 2500 feet today we took a 20 degree knock down...  Pretty easy to do the turns at 90mph and make the 2000 foot turn off.

Sure if you fly 3 mile patterns. Maybe maintain cruise speed until established on 5 mile final? Just to be on the safe side...

[chrisk]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Remember, that those speeds are at max gross weight. For single pilot with 1/3 tanks, the whole graph shifts down about 8KTS. 

 

What would you say your limit is in terms of runway length?  Do you fly larger patterns.  Thats good traing for when you upgrade to that Beech C90.

I fly into a 4000 foot strip.  I don't recall the last time I used more than half the runway (and that's the first half).  Notice I didn't say a 90 kt final.  And I certainly don't touch down at 90 kts.  Typically the stall horn is screaming when I touch down.   

For my 231, Best glide is between 76 and 85 (gross) kts, Stall speed is 61kts (gross) 55kts (min).  1.3 stall speed is 80-71 kts, depending on weight. --So flying a pattern at 90 kts is really only 15 kts above a reasonable final speed and 5kts above best glide.   And it's really not that hard to loose 15 knots of speed with the gear down.  As far as the pattern I fly:  When in my control, it is flown so I can make the runway with a power off 180.  My home airport however has a tower and some flight training.  When there is no other traffic, it is a close short pattern, left or right.  Other times it is a 5 mile final (as number 3) 

 

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

Just now, chrisk said:

I fly into a 4000 foot strip.  I don't recall the last time I used more than half the runway (and that's the first half).  Notice I didn't say a 90 kt final.  And I certainly don't touch down at 90 kts.  Typically the stall horn is screaming when I touch down.   

For my 231, Best glide is between 76 and 85 (gross) kts, Stall speed is 61kts (gross) 55kts (min).  1.3 stall speed is 80-71 kts, depending on weight. --So flying a pattern at 90 kts is really only 15 kts above a reasonable final speed and 5kts above best glide.   And it's really not that hard to loose 15 knots of speed with the gear down.  As far as the pattern I fly:  When in my control, it is flown so I can make the runway with a power off 180.  My home airport however has a tower and some flight training.  When there is no other traffic, it is a close short pattern, left or right.  Other times it is a 5 mile final (as number 3) 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm, I thought stall speed was 57kts it's  the 2900gw birds. It's intersting that your GW is only 160lbs above mine but you stop flying 7kts faster. That's significant. Do all 20Ks have speed brakes?

[chrisk]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Hmmm, I thought stall speed was 57kts it's  the 2900gw birds. It's intersting that your GW is only 160lbs above mine but you stop flying 7kts faster. That's significant. Do all 20Ks have speed brakes?

Here is the chart for stall speeds.

  All K's do not have speed breaks.  Mine has manual speed breaks.  But the landing gear is by far the most effective speed break.    Speed breaks are pretty effective at high speed, but not so much at low speed.  I also find them useful when flying an approach and I want to loose 50 or 100 feet, with out changing anything else on the plane.

[Hank]

What I see is 55-61 knot Stall when the plane is clean; drop gear and flaps and it becomes 50-59 knots. You can only land flaps and gear up once . . .

I fly the pattern at 90 mph, roll wings level on final at 85 and slow down to the stall horn at touchdown. But my stall speeds are much lower. Pretty much the same numbers, but mph vs. knots.

In my humble opinion, worth less than you paid for it since I'm no CFI, you could drop Takeoff Flaps on downwind and fly at 1.3 x 58 knots = 75 knots to short final. That, I think, is the point Ross was trying to make before you posted your chart. Mine is below, but I can't edit the page on my iPad so look at the bottom of the page.