Upgrade panel for IFR with steam guages what equipment needed

[PilotPierce]

Want to learn to fly IFR old school with steam guages and no gps in my 74 m20F.  Right now the only equipment i have is single kx155a with glidescope. Not interested in purchasing IFR gps at this time. What other equipment would you recommend I install. I'm thinking second com/nav radio with second CDI , and a maybe DME? Not sure if it's worth the money to upgrade panel with antique equipment. Will I want DME? Will i want second com/nav and CDI needle? How about ADF?, NDB?... What other equipment is useful that I could install for relatively (for ga) cheap? Planning on updating panel with IFR gps and ads-b transponder in 2020 but till then just need minimal equipment to train and fly occasional light IMC.

Thanks for any input. 

Edited February 16, 2016 by PilotPierce
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[ArtVandelay]

IIRC you need to perform 3 types of approaches on the checkride, so a ILS, VOR and ? You'll need DME, GPS, or a second VOR anyway, without one of which you can not identify your position, just line of position.

NDBs are almost extinct at this point.

Obviously GPS is the future and almost a requirement to get into airports these days.

[Cruiser]

you need:

§91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

...

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator

(4) Slip-skid indicator.

(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.

(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).

(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).

 

If you want to learn "old school" you probably have what you need. I would not add (spend money) on anything short of a GPS. You wouldn't need anything to train with and it will not add any value to the airplane. You will be limited to VOR, LOC and ILS approaches in training however. You might also want to find and "old school" CFII to train with, some others might be challenged by the equipment also.

[midlifeflyer]

You can theoretically get your IR with your single VOR/LOC/GS unit. But the practical reality is that instrument training is very approach-intensive and without at least a second VOR to use for (a) cross-checking your position or (b) to identify a second navaid in an approach sequence, you will  make it at least three times more difficult than it needs to be and drive yourself nuts in the process.

I did my instrument training more than 20 years ago with two VOR/LOCs, one with glideslope capability and one without, and with an ADF. It worked out OK.

Fast-forward to 2016 and I would want, at a minimum, those two VOR/LOC units and DME. DME because, in some parts of the country, DME (or ADF) is required for a lot of approaches and even when it is not, it makes many approaches more sensible from a situational awareness standpoint. Whe I flew my first airplane with DME after getting the rating, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread in terms of knowing where I was easily and with just a glance. On that ADF? Id rather have DME and toss the AFD into the trash bin of history.

Sounds like you have already excluded GPS but you might reconsider whether to take that step now and train for the way you want to fly.

[N601RX]

A KNS 80 is a nice box that is cheaply available.  It will give you a VOR, ILS and DME as well as a virtual VOR function.  The install will cost a lot more than the unit.

[Marauder]

Want to learn to fly IFR old school with steam guages and no gps in my m20F.  Right now the only equipment i have is single kx155a with glidescope. Not interested in purchasing IFR gps at this time. What other equipment would you recommend I install. I'm thinking second com/nav radio with VOR needle, and a DME? Not sure if it's worth the money to upgrade panel with antique equipment. Do I need DME? Do i need second com/nav and VOR needle? How about ADF?, NDB? What other equipment is useful that I could install for relatively cheap? Planning on getting IFR gps and new transponder in 2020 but till then just need minimal equipment to train and fly occasional light IMC.

Thanks for any input. 

Ah, the good old days. First, I wouldn't install an ADF. There just isn't enough of those approaches around in North America to make sense having one.

I would see if I could get a cheap second Nav/Com if for no other reason to allow redundancy. The second Nav will come in handy when you are crossing fixes or want to use the second radio to backup the first Nav's course guidance.

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[PilotPierce]

Kns80 sounds promising 

[steingar]

Oh for Odin's sake get the GPS!  You'll spend as much putting in bloody steam gauges and/or a radio, only to have them go obsolete.  I put up a post asking if I should replace my nonworking ADF, something that would cost a couple hundred bucks.  The answer was a resounding no.  There is just no point in spending thousands modifying your aircraft to make it less valuable.

[Marauder]

10 minutes ago, steingar said:

Oh for Odin's sake get the GPS!  You'll spend as much putting in bloody steam gauges and/or a radio, only to have them go obsolete.  I put up a post asking if I should replace my nonworking ADF, something that would cost a couple hundred bucks.  The answer was a resounding no.  There is just no point in spending thousands modifying your aircraft to make it less valuable.

That's exactly how I started out. Buy a GPS to fix the issue of flying to airports no longer served with VOR approaches. That led to "what Nav head to buy to display the GPS signal?" Which led to "Wouldn't you want to display this on a HSI?". Which led to "It would be easier to wire if you purchased a new audio panel". Which led to "If you bought a second Aspen you could have redundancy". Which led to Marauder being kicked out of the Cheap Bast$&d Club.

[Mooneymite]

14 minutes ago, steingar said:

Oh for Odin's sake get the GPS! 

GPS approaches are replacing ground navaid approaches at an alarming rate.  There are a lot of airports you just can't fly into IFR without GPS.  While you're doing it, go WAAS GPS.  There are many advantages.

An instrument rating isn't worth much if your plane isn't equiped to go where you need to go.

 

[ArtVandelay]

10 minutes ago, steingar said: Oh for Odin's sake get the GPS!  You'll spend as much putting in bloody steam gauges and/or a radio, only to have them go obsolete.  I put up a post asking if I should replace my nonworking ADF, something that would cost a couple hundred bucks.  The answer was a resounding no.  There is just no point in spending thousands modifying your aircraft to make it less valuable.

That's exactly how I started out. Buy a GPS to fix the issue of flying to airports no longer served with VOR approaches. That led to "what Nav head to buy to display the GPS signal?" Which led to "Wouldn't you want to display this on a HSI?". Which led to "It would be easier to wire if you purchased a new audio panel". Which led to "If you bought a second Aspen you could have redundancy". Which led to Marauder being kicked out of the Cheap Bast$&d Club.

Your avionics salesman is good!

[Marauder]

10 minutes ago, steingar said: Oh for Odin's sake get the GPS!  You'll spend as much putting in bloody steam gauges and/or a radio, only to have them go obsolete.  I put up a post asking if I should replace my nonworking ADF, something that would cost a couple hundred bucks.  The answer was a resounding no.  There is just no point in spending thousands modifying your aircraft to make it less valuable.

That's exactly how I started out. Buy a GPS to fix the issue of flying to airports no longer served with VOR approaches. That led to "what Nav head to buy to display the GPS signal?" Which led to "Wouldn't you want to display this on a HSI?". Which led to "It would be easier to wire if you purchased a new audio panel". Which led to "If you bought a second Aspen you could have redundancy". Which led to Marauder being kicked out of the Cheap Bast$&d Club.

Your avionics salesman is good!

More like the owner was an idiot. Hey! I resemble that remark!

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[dlthig]

I earned my civilian instrument rating 20+ years ago with dual MK12Bs and KR86 ADF in my Cherokee 180. I'm not a fan of paying for things twice, so I'd upgrade to the largest WAAS GPS/COMM that will fit and that should get you what you need. Your KX-155 is great and there are plenty used ones out there if you need a replacement. You may be able to find some used equipment from your avionics shop to save some money. I'm a big fan of training like I fly. While it's noble to want the experience of flying needles, you will be a better IFR pilot learning your aircraft and it's systems. Otherwise, you get to pay and learn twice. Besides, you can always turn the GPS off. Good luck and enjoy the training. 

DLTHIG

IGI, CFII, USAF AIS - all of this and I only pay $5 for a latte.

[Bob_Belville]

54 minutes ago, Marauder said:

More like the owner was an idiot. Hey! I resemble that remark!

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On might not want to let the a shop give one some alternative quotes: good, better, best. Guys like Marauder, Don Kaye, and yours truly  opt for option C and then start dreaming about other while-we're-at-it goodies. 

[larryb]

Buy the gps now and enjoy it. Train like you will fly with the gps. Lots of the IFR training is learning how to use your gps. It will be cheaper in the long run.

[glafaille]

Look at what approaches are available at the places you travel to most often.  If you have an ADF already installed and it can be used at the airports you visit then you might as well leave it in.

I'm tired of people saying that ADF approaches are extinct when I find PLENTY of NDBs still out there, and the associated approaches published.  It is rare to see an ADF approach without a GPS approach overlayed with it, but ADF is still useful in some areas

Plenty of ILS approaches have an NDB co-located with the marker beacon to fix the FAF.  Great for situational awareness in the terminal area when you don't have GPS and a moving map.

For those of you that think the ADF is extinct, I can send you current approach plates for airports that still use them.  

Is ADF on it's way out?  Sure, some day!  But in the meantime it's still useful, as is VOR.  Plus no subscription expense to use these facilities like there is for GPS.  If you are on a budget, fly "old school".

[carusoam]

1) While the sun sets on the ground based Nav systems, is there anything on the other side of WAAS GPS?

2) ADF has the been the latest to be closing out. Loran went a few years before.  DME has slant range issues that were not appreciated on day one.

3) WAAS Nav Coms have the most capability.  VOR,ILS,all of the GPS instrument procedures.

4) My IR is only five years old.  A pair of navcoms with at least one ILS will cover the need to land when the clouds have moved in.  A KL94 was used for non-precision approaches.  The GPS can be used for DME distances, some CFII rules may apply.

5) The KNS 80 has a nice way of identifying intersections.  But spending any additional money here won't get you where you want to be.  It was a convenience item before GPS became available.

6) 2020 ADSB is going to cost a couple of bucks.  

7) Lots of good radios have come available as the the new GTNs have become so highly appreciated.

8) A good portable WAAS device is good to have for situational awareness.

9) Look for an approach approved GPSs like a KLN 90B or KLN94 or a G430.  Close to 1 OR 2 AMU for the hardware installation is on top of that...

10) installing these devices is expensive.  The coolest thing about installing a used G430 is you can possibly upgrade to an IFD440 using most of the G430’s installation.  (Check the details)

11) I like old school steam gauges.  Many of my steam gauges are digital with motorized needles displays.

Pierce, what is the fuzzy BK device you have below the first NavCom?

I was born a CB, and my kids want me to stay a CB...

Best regards,

-a-

[glafaille]

I frequent Rockland, Maine (RKD) which has two NDB approaches, Apalachicola, Florida (AAF) which has one NDB approach and I am based at Longview, Texas (GGG) which still has an NDB/LOM which I use for situational awareness.  ADF is still nice to have for the places we fly to, even with GPS/FMS.  

[Marauder]

I frequent Rockland, Maine (RKD) which has two NDB approaches, Apalachicola, Florida (AAF) which has one NDB approach and I am based at Longview, Texas (GGG) which still has an NDB/LOM which I use for situational awareness.  ADF is still nice to have for the places we fly to, even with GPS/FMS.  

I still wouldn't buy one. All of the GPS approaches that serve KRKD and KAAF have lower approach mins than the NDB. I would rather take my chances on being able to fly one of the 6 GPS approaches at KAAF than trust I could get in with that single NDB.

I went through my logs to see if I could find the last time I flew an NDB for real. I gave up when I got to the pre-Y2K era. There was always a viable alternative to the airport's I fly to.

As someone who was a hold out on GPS until 2012, I understand the appeal of the older technology. It's simple and it works. I just wouldn't spend money on it today. That reminds me, anyone interested in a nice STS LORAN-C?

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[Mooneymite]

A WAAS GPS will enhance your ADS-B choices when that time comes.

Installation costs are significant.  Why not do W-GPS now and avoid the second  installation down the road?

If you plan to up-grade to a different plane, a W-GPS will make your present plane more marketable.

Learning to fly obsolete equipment can be good, but paying to install obsolete avionics doesn't make sense to me..

[chrisk]

10 hours ago, glafaille said:

Look at what approaches are available at the places you travel to most often.  If you have an ADF already installed and it can be used at the airports you visit then you might as well leave it in.

I'm tired of people saying that ADF approaches are extinct when I find PLENTY of NDBs still out there, and the associated approaches published.  It is rare to see an ADF approach without a GPS approach overlayed with it, but ADF is still useful in some areas

Plenty of ILS approaches have an NDB co-located with the marker beacon to fix the FAF.  Great for situational awareness in the terminal area when you don't have GPS and a moving map.

For those of you that think the ADF is extinct, I can send you current approach plates for airports that still use them.  

Is ADF on it's way out?  Sure, some day!  But in the meantime it's still useful, as is VOR.  Plus no subscription expense to use these facilities like there is for GPS.  If you are on a budget, fly "old school".

When I upgraded, I pulled the ADF out of my plane.   And I have to say I have not missed it one bit.   The only ADF approach I ever did was at KERV.  There used to be an ADF at my home base KGTU, but it was decommissioned.  --Which seems to be the trend.

All that said, if you are flying internationally, you may want to consider keeping an ADF.  GPS is great, but the business model for updating approaches sucks for the flying population. .   Think about it.  The government has the data, a 3rd party gets the data, then they sell it to you for $500+ a year.  I'm not sure why the FAA can't mandate a common format for the data and require certified GPS units to accept that format. Then get the downloads from the FAA.   (Yea, I'd vote for Bernie,the socialist, if he could fix this) --Anyway, if you fly internationally and you don't want to give Jeppesen your money, you may find plenty of approaches that are ADF or DME based.

[glafaille]

Marauder-

I agree that it's wise to not throw any new money into the ADF, but if it's there, and it works, why not put it to use?  You don't have to shoot approaches with it to gain usefullness.

The problem with GPS is the expense.  They are expensive to purchase (new), expensive to install and expensive to maintain (subscription).  Furthermore, their lifespan may be shorter than what we are used to.  Even now, parts are unavailable for some of the first and second generation systems, screens and circuit boards usually.  Subscription services have been discontinued  for many, making otherwise good navigation systems unusable for approaches and limiting their usefulness.  One may be forced back to the ADF for lack of subscription data!.  Not legal to shoot approaches with expired data, right?

GPS is an awesome tool but not without it's problems.  

 

[Bob - S50]

I'll add to several good pieces of advice above...

1.  I would not spend money to buy and install an ADF.  We paid money to take ours out during an upgrade.

2.  A second NAV/COM would be nice as a backup.  That way if you lose the NAV or the COMM you can still talk to ATC and fly an approach... but you don't NEED it.

3.  DME is nice... but you don't NEED it.

4.  A KNS80 will give you a backup NAV, RNAV, and DME... but you don't NEED it.

5.  I cannot function without an HSI anymore.  There is no cheap way to install one.  You don't NEED it.

6.  Installing a modern GPS will not only give you a GPS it will also give you another VOR/LOC/GS/COMM suitable substitute for a DME all in one box.  But you said you don't want to spend the money.

Redundancy is good.  We have a GTN650 with GPS/VOR/LOC/GS/Comm, a KNS80 for backup VOR/LOC/GS/DME, and a separate Comm radio.  I carry a handheld Comm radio and two tablets with moving maps.  You don't NEED it though.

Like someone said above, figure out where you MIGHT want to go and see what types of approaches are available.  Then make your decision based on that.  Keep in mind that if an airport has several RNAV approaches but only has one ILS, if they are busy, and they are not using the runway with the ILS, you may end up holding a long time before they let you fly the LOC approach with a circle to land on the active.  Bring LOTS of gas with you in that case.

Oh, and I learned in a T37.  One VOR/LOC, DME, no GS, no ADF, one Comm.

Best of luck,

Bob

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, glafaille said:

Look at what approaches are available at the places you travel to most often.  If you have an ADF already installed and it can be used at the airports you visit then you might as well leave it in.

I'm tired of people saying that ADF approaches are extinct when I find PLENTY of NDBs still out there, and the associated approaches published.  It is rare to see an ADF approach without a GPS approach overlayed with it, but ADF is still useful in some areas

Plenty of ILS approaches have an NDB co-located with the marker beacon to fix the FAF.  Great for situational awareness in the terminal area when you don't have GPS and a moving map.

For those of you that think the ADF is extinct, I can send you current approach plates for airports that still use them.  

Is ADF on it's way out?  Sure, some day!  But in the meantime it's still useful, as is VOR.  Plus no subscription expense to use these facilities like there is for GPS.  If you are on a budget, fly "old school".

Currently extinct? No. But NDBs are being decommissioned pretty much as quickly as they require maintenance, That includes airports with an ILS or LOC that used an LOM (or DME). The LOM needs maintenance or is even anticipated to need maintenance and the IAP gets replaced. Sometimes with two versions - one that requires GPS and another that uses some other means of identifying the FAF. See the ILS/LOC approaches at KTTA (Sanford, NC) as examples. They changed this past year. So they are on their way out. 

Add to that the difficulty many pilots have flying an ADF approach accurately. Yeah, one can always bemoan the lack of flying skills and that  "real" instrument pilots can fly them. But all it takes is a slightly precessing DG to make an NDB approach to minimums using an off-airport NDB (where you can't even home in) into an unnecessary adventure in airport hunting at the MDA. Even without DG vs compass error, NDB approaches give real meaning to the term "non-precision"  while even a circa 1998 handheld AirMap, will bring you directly to the runway. (Yeah, I actually tried that one in visual conditions as an experiment. I was on final with calm winds. The handheld GPS and the view out the window showed the runway right in front of me; the ADF said I was at least 20° off course)

Opinions can certainly reasonably differ, but I personally don't the the purpose behind a new instrument student learning a disappearing technology that has proven difficult for many when he has the option of using one that already exceeds it in numbers and is growing in use.

[RLCarter]

A second Comm/Nav radio would be good to have, but it isn't needed to get your rating. I would get a DME  and start training, even with what you have you can do an ILS, LOC and a VOR approach as long as the ILS doesn't require DME 
I received my instrument rating 2yrs ago with basically your panel plus a DME and an iPad running Wing-X.