Power Off 180 in M20J

[MooneyBob]

What is your experience for best executed Power Off 180 in M20J ?

Pattern altitude

Distance from the runway on down wind

Selecting Aiming point

Selecting Touch down point

When to power to idle?

When to deploy flaps?

When to lower gear?

Target gliding speed?

Do you slip if too high?

Do you land when practicing?

Any concerns, shock cooling, prop in yellow range?

Thank you?

 

[Bob - S50]

I don't practice engine failure too often, but if that's what you're doing, pick any time you want to pull the power to idle and see if you can make it.  As for the other questions, what I've done is:

I aim about 1/3 of the way down the runway.  It's easier to lose more altitude if I am too high than it is to stretch it a bit if it looks like I'll come up short of the runway.  Even if the runway is relatively short, I'd rather go off the end at 30 knots trying to stop than land at 60 knots short of the runway.  That of course has to be tempered with what's off the ends of the runway.  Ditch, river, housing, etc.

I stay clean and at 85-90 knots (best glide) until I know I'm too high.  At that point I'll lower the gear and slow to 80-85 knots.  Once I'm sure I'm still too high I start milking in the flaps until my aimpoint is where I want it.

I have landed during a simulated engine failure, but many people recommend against it.  Increased odds of forgetting to lower the gear combined with a somewhat higher sink rate means increased odds of damage to your plane.

As for shock cooling, I don't worry about it.  Prop in the yellow range - if you are at idle and slow, the prop will probably be below the yellow arc.

Play with it.  If you don't like what you see, add power, go around, then practice some more.

[chrisk]

It really depends on your objective.  I've done plenty of simulated engine outs and I  wouldn't trade the mooney for any other plane as far as getting the plane to the airport.  I've also found it is not to hard to get it on a reasonable sized runway.  As far as power off 180s to commercial pts standards, of touching down in a 200 foot spot, I found it difficult.  

I got my commercial in a Piper lance.  It had a glide ratio of a rock.  A power off  180 was an immediate diving turn to the runway.  If you didn't pull the prop back, you would not make it and come up short.  It was funny, the gear didn't make as much difference as the prop.  You could also land really hard and the gear would take it.  This was actually the easiest commercial maneuver in the lance.  You couldn't screw it up.  Anyway, the same thing in a Mooney would put you off the field and would result in a major bounce.

My brief experience with my Mooney was to find the right spot on the wing for the proper distance, then lower the gear, add 10 degrees of flaps,  pull power abeam the spot, fly a normal pattern.  The difference was it was a tight pattern, closer to the runway.  If you feel low on base, go for the runway at less than a 90 degree turn.  The biggest difference is the wind of the day.  The Mooney glides so well, no two days will be the same.  Slips, flaps, gear, and prop are all tools you can use.

[Yetti]

For an F

Downwind 1.2 miles away from the runway.

15" in the pattern

At the threshold, gear down

Pull to idle

Do a u turn to the runway.  You will have lots of energy to work with.  Throw the flaps out

[mike20papa]

11R, one of my favorite airports!  Love that slightly downhill gradient to 16..!   Now, the question was POWER OFF.  I'll assume you mean NO wind.. I like to track the runway on downwind (usually around 12in in my A mode) at about the mid point of the wing, 1000ft. AGL (standard pattern. altitude) then when you are abeam the numbers, (I shoot for 100mph) down with the gear and begin the turn (base&final) I use 1 notch of flaps...(full flaps, power off and anything under 90mph..the Mooney comes down NOW and the flair has to be executed abruptly and timed precisely or expect a "firm" landing)   Now, the best assurance for a good landing will be to work the trim full aft during the turn, or else the yoke forces in the flair can be unnecessarily excessive and pitch authority limited.  All that being said..the wind is never calm and there are either thermals or buzzards on final ..I prefer to stay slightly high as the runway always seems to never come up as quickly as I think it should, also, IF I am high, I never hesitate in slipping my A model,  Don't know anything about how the long fuselage's slip, but I'd rather a forward slip than dealing with full flaps with NO power.  Have fun.

[carusoam]

Long bodies come with speed brakes.  Not as effective as a full slip, but you aren't that far off on speed either...

2700rpm, feel the deceleration....

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

The down hill at 11R will get you the first couple of times,  You flare, the runway leaves you, You flare, the runway leaves you.  11R is where the plane is stored, so landing on a flat runway give me "oh no that looks different" for a second when I fly elsewhere.

[Browncbr1]

sometimes, if there is no traffic, I'll do a power off down wind landing, which often results in being high and fast if you're not used to doing down wind landings... It helps you practice getting it slowed and down to make the field, as an emergency 180 may dictate landing down wind... you should probably try a full flap, full slip a few times to see what's possible.  I can't speak for long bodies, but the F does this easily.. I've heard you don't want to do that in a long body or the tail will start to go blind..

[Andy95W]

27 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

sometimes, if there is no traffic, I'll do a power off down wind landing, which often results in being high and fast if you're not used to doing down wind landings...

You just gave me something to practice when I go flying.  Thanks!

[C-GHIJ]

If you really want to get good at power off landings, go get your glider licence.  Everyone is a power off landing.  It will make your approaches more accurate.  I have flown gliders for over 30 years and when my power instructor pulled the power the first time it was no big deal, it was like I had done it a 1000 times before....oh wait, I have.

[chrisk]

This is not a Mooney, but the video may help. 

 

It's all about energy management.

[Hank]

My first Mooney BFR, the CFI wanted a power off landing, so I pulled the power about midfield downwind on a 6500' runway. Still had the prop Full RPM from takeoff. Flew my normal 1/2-3/4 mile pattern, Takeoff flaps on downwind if they weren't already down (I don't remember), gear down abeam them numbers, at regular altitude on base, made a normal touchdown at normal speed. The CFI was surprised . . . It was a total nonevent.

The first thing I thought watching this video was yeah. This ain't no Mooney, look how short he turned base, and even then the ground is mighty close as he's turning final. And that was with the prop all the way out!

The best thing to do is practice in your plane, see just now it reacts. I still need to practice simulated engine out glides and pull the prop back, see the difference--I've heard it is significant. Oh, mine above was at a Class D, nobody knew it was power off except us in the plane.

[Yetti]

In my transition training he pulled the power.  I c172 headed it for the runway.  We were way high and fast, I said there was no way to make it.  He took the plane and did a slip to one side then the other and gave the plane back and said go around.    We would could probably have gotten it down, but it would have been on the last third of a 6000 foot runway.

[Andy95W]

8 hours ago, chrisk said:

This is not a Mooney, but the video may help. 

 

It's all about energy management.

Got my Commercial almost 20 years ago, but really haven't practiced since.  If I tried it at work the passengers would end up screaming more than usual.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, N1395W said:

Got my Commercial almost 20 years ago, but really haven't practiced since.  If I tried it at work the passengers would end up screaming more than usual.

 

Oh, go ahead and do it! Everybody needs their 15 minutes of fame...

[Andy95W]

On February 15, 2016 at 1:57 PM, N1395W said:

You just gave me something to practice when I go flying.  Thanks!

So, I practiced some power off landings today.  

1st effort: Pathetic.  Almost ashamed of myself.  Probably would've died if it'd been for real.

2nd effort:. Ugly but survivable, ran out of time to do more.

Just like Mooneymite, I remain a perpetual student.

 

[chrisk]

After you get the power off 180 down, you should try a power off spiral down to an airport.  --Its different and probably more useful in real life. 

[laytonl]

When I was doing my commercial I found the Mooney to be pretty easy to do the accuracy landings.  I used the touchdown bars as my aiming point and found that beginning the flare three center line stripes prior would put me right on the markers provided I was on speed and altitude.  Speed control was critical to reliably hitting the mark.

as others have said I cut the power abeam the touchdown point, gear down, flaps 15 and start the turn.  Then full flaps if it looks good and slip as needed.  Pulling the prop out was used to salvage a low approach which I had to do on the actual test and landed about 30 into the 200' allowance.

the accuracy landings were fun.  I never got the hang of lazy eights.

Lee

[Immelman]

You all will think I'm crazy, but my "normal" landing from a downwind in an empty pattern is a power off 180. Practice it often, and a forced landing to a small field should be no big deal. Power off abeam mid-field. I fly my patterns tight. Gear abeam the numbers, half flap, trim for initial speed of about Vref+10. Now you have 4 tools in the tool box to get it right:

1. 10 knots of speed to lose which are shed and trimmed off by the time you're on short final. Its still a normal Mooney landing, with the goal being to cross the threshold at 1.3 Vso (vref)

2. the other half of the flaps

3. the timing of the base turn, and degree of wind correction applied

4. use of a forward slip, to include a turning slip.

Small caveat, I fly a short body (E).

 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Immelman

[chrisk]

8 hours ago, Immelman said:

You all will think I'm crazy, but my "normal" landing from a downwind in an empty pattern is a power off 180. Practice it often, and a forced landing to a small field should be no big deal. Power off abeam mid-field. I fly my patterns tight. Gear abeam the numbers, half flap, trim for initial speed of about Vref+10. Now you have 4 tools in the tool box to get it right:

1. 10 knots of speed to lose which are shed and trimmed off by the time you're on short final. Its still a normal Mooney landing, with the goal being to cross the threshold at 1.3 Vso (vref)

2. the other half of the flaps

3. the timing of the base turn, and degree of wind correction applied

4. use of a forward slip, to include a turning slip.

Small caveat, I fly a short body (E).

 

I don't think you are crazy.  It's how I taught  when first learning to fly years ago.  It's become increasingly difficult  to continue this practice now that I am at a Class D field.  I now get some very large patterns with "stabilized" approaches.   -Fly 5 miles past the runway threshold, follow some other plane, cleared to land number 3.   That said, I enjoy visiting lightly used uncontrolled fields and doing power off 180's

[CaptainAB]

Great video.